Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

caveat emptor

faceman wrote: »

Was chatting to an Irish legal person friend about the “Dubai 2”. He is of the belief they have a very strong case on technical grounds and if they win it will open the floodgates to further challenges. Seemingly “absolute liability” is at play here. You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law. It was quite technical how he explained.

He is also of the belief that they will get compensation for illegal detention as the state acted beyond its powers.

It will require a judicial review and will take time however. But if they win, it could mean other victims of MHQ can roll in behind them.

Ignorance is no excuse of the law.

Otherwise everyone would win constitutional challenges and claim even more compo to fund their lifestyle.

Kaisr Sose

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I don't get it also. Let's say the charge is assault.

You are charged with assault causing injury but you get off because it was not your intention to assault the person? But the issue remains that you assaulted the person.

There is also the charge of theft by finding. You find something on a road or wherever and take it knowing its not your property. You are seen / identified and charged with theft by finding. In court you argue you found it/did not steal it/ never meant to steal it but you are convicted of theft by finding.

And so it goes on..

They were detained because they refused to go into quarantine. It was not a random detention. The ammendment to the Health Act provides for arrest and imprisonment or fine or both for refusing to quarantine or leaving quarantine. Their detention was in line with that. You can't release them on bail back to liberty as that makes a mockery of the charge of refusing to quarantine. They would not loose the assumption of innocence by being detained, although by their own admissions, they clearly did refuse to enter mandatory hotel quarantine.

A judicial review will take ages and they don't come cheap. This whole thing stinks and the only ones that will benefit will be the legal profession employed to argue the case.

Throw in manslaughter as well.

"Ignorance of the law is no defence" as the judge herself said.

It's not a requirement that you intended to actually commit a crime, just intended to commit the act that is a crime.

Anyway, their house of cards will all fall in open court

NSAman

MHQ or not I’m vaccinated and coming home in a few weeks!

hmmm

saabsaab wrote: »

There is a strong chance that a new variant could cause havoc with vaccination programmes.

Given that the vaccines currently provide protection against all known variants, how do you come to the conclusion that there is a "strong chance" a new variant cause "havoc" with vaccination programmes?

NH2013

saabsaab wrote: »

There is a strong chance that a new variant could cause havoc with vaccination programmes. Best to delay reduce to a minimum international travel so any intake can be traced quickly and stopped.

Linsten to the Kingston Mills RTE I posted earlier.

But given that vaccines have shown to be effective against all known strains and variants, why would this be the case?

And if so, when do we re-open travel, never?

While I get limiting it now while we aren't vaccinated, hypothetically, if we were all vaccinated here but you were of the impression vaccines don't work on different variants, how long should we still keep the boarders closed for?

Until global eradication? (Which won't happen ever given countries like the Israel, USA and UK are now reopening as they're happy their health systems are protected)

The end game for this has to be health systems being sufficiently protected through immunisation, not elimination or the prevention of variants.

Kaisr Sose

hmmm wrote: »

Given that the vaccines currently provide protection against all known variants, how do you come to the conclusion that there is a "strong chance" a new variant cause "havoc" with vaccination programmes?

For one, it has been found that the AZ vaccine is less effective against the SA variant. As/if/when new variants emerge, there is a possibility current vaccines will be less effective against them.

AZ may become less relevant over time due to the clotting issue but right now the SA variant effectiveness is commented on. Th SA variant is the main reason some countries are red listed, Austria in the EU, being a very good local case.

It's going to be a dynamic issue from now on. Virus mutates, vaccines reengineered to be more effective.

For now, nobody wants the SA variant to become dominant.

hmmm

NH2013 wrote: »

But given that vaccines have shown to be effective against all known strains and variants, why would this be the case?

And if so, when do we re-open travel, never?

If we're going to do this then I think there needs to be a strict time limit. 2 months, and it automatically expires.

Mandatory quarantine can't be used as an excuse to hide under our beds forever for fear of "variants", and it can't also be used as an excuse (by a small element) to keep foreigners out of Ireland.

Either way the impact on those who rely on travel, and our reputation, will be considerable, and despite what some people think this does matter. It will look ridiculous over the next few months as countries begin to open up and drop restrictions, while we're careering off script implementing some sort of last-minute zero-Covid approach.

Corholio

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

For one, it has been found that the AZ vaccine is less effective against the SA variant. As/if/when new variants emerge, there is a possibility current vaccines will be less effective against them.

AZ may become less relevant over time due to the clotting issue but right now the SA variant effectiveness is commented on, and the main reason some countries are red listed. Austria being a very good local case.

It's going to be a dynamic issue from now on. Virus mutates, vaccines reengineered to be more effective. Nobody wants the SA variant to become dominant.

Has there been another study on the AZ effectiveness on the SA variant? Because the one that has been posted often here isn't anything close to confirming that it is much less effective.

hmmm

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

For one, it has been found that the AZ vaccine is less effective against the SA variant. As/if/when new variants emerge, there is a possibility current vaccines will be less effective against them.

Small sample size, young people, it wasn't a very good study and needs a better one before we can draw any conclusions. Besides which the mRNA vaccines and J&J have shown they will protect against the South African variant.

Worries about future variants which "may" arise seems to be a tenuous argument for what would be a very significant step like MHQ for all visitors to Ireland. There are costs to doing this, and it's not as simple as saying that we should do it just because it will reduce risk.

NSAman

hmmm wrote: »

If we're going to do this then I think there needs to be a strict time limit. 2 months, and it automatically expires.

Mandatory quarantine can't be used as an excuse to hide under our beds forever for fear of "variants", and it can't also be used as an excuse (by a small element) to keep foreigners out of Ireland.

Either way the impact on those who rely on travel, and our reputation, will be considerable, and despite what some people think this does matter. It will look ridiculous over the next few months as countries begin to open up and drop restrictions, while we're careering off script implementing some sort of last-minute zero-Covid approach.

Realistically there are around 500 bedrooms available in the four hotels currently. If three flights are full coming in from the states (I know that’s a stretch at the moment) where do people stay?

I got vaccinated today. I will be travelling home in a few weeks. The mandatory hotel quarantine rules won’t be there soon, there are too many vaccines being rolled out across the globe. Stopping all travel and mandating quarantine in a hotel in Ireland for all, simply won’t work.

It may have worked a year ago, but at this stage it’s too late. Most people SHOULD have a vaccine by July if they want one (outside of the EU)... should it be no vaccine no travel? That’s what it is beginning to look like.

saabsaab

NSAman wrote: »

Realistically there are around 500 bedrooms available in the four hotels currently. If three flights are full coming in from the states (I know that’s a stretch at the moment) where do people stay?

I got vaccinated today. I will be travelling home in a few weeks. The mandatory hotel quarantine rules won’t be there soon, there are too many vaccines being rolled out across the globe. Stopping all travel and mandating quarantine in a hotel in Ireland for all, simply won’t work.

It may have worked a year ago, but at this stage it’s too late. Most people SHOULD have a vaccine by July if they want one (outside of the EU)... should it be no vaccine no travel? That’s what it is beginning to look like.

It will be no vaccine no travel as it should be too. The MHQ won't be forever just until roll out, until then just wait!

fm

saabsaab wrote: »

It will be no vaccine no travel as it should be too. The MHQ won't be forever just until roll out, until then just wait!

It's rolling out now, what do you mean? 80% - 100% what?

saabsaab

saabsaab wrote: »

Actually the numbers are rising again. Vaccinations should end it and soon. This should include new variants as the world vaccinates and they can't develop and spread. Patience until we get there, probably at the end of June (over 2,000,000 by then).

Said it already.

NH2013

fm wrote: »

It's rolling out now, what do you mean? 80% - 100% what?

Indeed, it probably should already be an element that if you're fully vaccinated you shouldn't have to quarantine or restrict movements with travel.

If you're vaccinated and travelling now you're as likely to transmit a variant as if you're vaccinated and travelling 12 months from now, so why should travel restrictions still be imposed on people who've got the vaccine which have demonstrated the practical elimination of transmission.

saabsaab

NH2013 wrote: »

Indeed, it probably should already be an element that if you're fully vaccinated you shouldn't have to quarantine or restrict movements with travel.

If you're vaccinated and travelling now you're as likely to transmit a variant as if you're vaccinated and travelling 12 months from now, so why should travel restrictions still be imposed on people who've got the vaccine which have demonstrated the practical elimination of transmission.

We can't tell but it may be much less a chance in future with a roll out completed.

JDD

I’m sure someone has discussed this already, but why is Israel on the MHQ list? Case numbers are low and most arrivals will be vaccinated.

hmmm

saabsaab wrote: »

We can't tell but it may be much less a chance in future with a roll out completed.

At any point over the past few years we could have had someone with Ebola arrive on a plane. At some point in the future there will be a new strain of Influenza which will have a high mortality. Dengue has reached France.

We live with these risks, Covid will be just another one. We won't be locking the country down indefinitely for fear of new variants. I understand that the virologists who worry about these risks have genuine fears (and an influenza "big one" is perhaps overdue), but we have to live our lives too.

If anything, Covid should ramp up surveillance of dangerous new viruses, and also we'll have a new toolbox (e.g. mRNA vaccines) which we can deploy quickly for the next pandemic.

NH2013

saabsaab wrote: »

We can't tell but it may be much less a chance in future with a roll out completed.

But countries like the USA and Israel have effectively completed their roll outs, Biden has said that by 17th of April, in just 10 days anyone who wanted a vaccine will have gotten one, and Israel has now stated they've difficulty in getting more people in to take the vaccine, so they're effectively fully vaccinated as well, so they should be let in once things open here as they're as good as they'll get.

saabsaab

BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT JAIR Bolsonaro has said there will be “no national lockdown” a day after the nation saw its highest number of Covid-19 deaths.
Brazil’s Health Ministry registered 4,195 deaths yesterday, becoming the third country to go above that threshold as Bolsonaro’s political opponents demanded stricter measures to slow down the spread of the virus.
The country has registered more than 335,000 Covid-19 deaths in total.
“We’re not going to accept this politics of stay home and shut everything down,” Bolsonaro said, resisting the pressure in a speech in the city of Chapeco in Santa Catarina state.
“There will be no national lockdown.”


Not a policy that most would want or have no control over those coming here.

hmmm

NH2013 wrote: »

But countries like the USA and Israel have effectively completed their roll outs, Biden has said that by 17th of April, in just 10 days anyone who wanted a vaccine will have gotten one, and Israel has now stated they've difficulty in getting more people in to take the vaccine, so they're effectively fully vaccinated as well, so they should be let in once things open here as they're as good as they'll get.

Probably not for this thread, but I think the Irish tourist industry should be given a chance to recover business in the second half of this year. It would make no economic sense to keep vaccinated tourists out of this country, or forced to quarantine - obviously they will go elsewhere in that case.

saabsaab

hmmm wrote: »

Probably not for this thread, but I think the Irish tourist industry should be given a chance to recover business in the second half of this year. It would make no economic sense to keep vaccinated tourists out of this country, or forced to quarantine - obviously they will go elsewhere in that case.

Two birds with one stone. Fully vaccinate the islands now, probably only 15,000 doses at most and transfer tourists there with a free shot if needed. Boost tourism, limit spread.

Covid 'free' holiday?

josip

JDD wrote: »

I’m sure someone has discussed this already, but why is Israel on the MHQ list? Case numbers are low and most arrivals will be vaccinated.

De vary ants and Facebook.

a_squirrelman

saabsaab wrote: »

Two birds with one stone. Fully vaccinate the islands now, probably only 15,000 doses at most and transfer tourists there with a free shot if needed. Boost tourism, limit spread.

Covid 'free' holiday?

You wanted to send the MHQers to the islands, and now the tourists? Cloud cuckoo is where you're at.

Red Silurian

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Back with that nonsense again that every case is travel related. No credibility if that is your response to all community transmission.

Is it really nonsense that every case is travel related? How did a virus that started in China get here? A South Westerly wind?

saabsaab

a_squirrelman wrote: »

You wanted to send the MHQers to the islands, and now the tourists? Cloud cuckoo is where you're at.

Both the same for now.

normanoffside

Red Silurian wrote: »

Is it really nonsense that every case is travel related? How did a virus that started in China get here? A South Westerly wind?

Every case in the world is then travel related.
If only we had shut down all forms of travel in November 2019 and kept it shut down until now then there would not have been a pandemic.

Corholio

normanoffside wrote: »

Every case in the world is then travel related.
If only we had shut down all forms of travel in November 2019 and kept it shut down until now then there would not have been a pandemic.

I know that was said in sarcasm but there's some that would go 'Actually ya, sounds a darn good idea' :P

This 'every case is travel related' stuff is tiresome. It's as if once it gets into Ireland all responsibility is cut, 'don't worry, you didn't bring it in, you're grand'

caveat emptor

Corholio wrote: »

I know that was said in sarcasm but there's some that would go 'Actually ya, sounds a darn good idea' :P

This 'every case is travel related' stuff is tiresome. It's as if once it gets into Ireland all responsibility is cut, 'don't worry, you didn't bring it in, you're grand'

By responsibility to you mean :

• staying cooped up at home for months on end,
• Kids forgoing education,
• 20% unemployed,
• businesses failing,
• Hospitals not operating.

those kind of things?

That's a lot of responsibility that society has to take.

Corholio

caveat emptor wrote: »

By responsibility to you mean :

• staying cooped up at home for months on end,
• Kids forgoing education,
• 20% unemployed,
• businesses failing,
• Hospitals not operating.

those kind of things?

That's a lot of responsibility that society has to take.

What are you on about? That was a hell of a tangent you rode off on. The black and white nonsense of 'eVery cAsE is travel related' is a tiresome roadblock in a debate used only to pin everything on travel and remove responsibility from the people spreading, not knowingly of course for a lot but plenty who recklessly did, which every country had.

caveat emptor

Corholio wrote: »

What are you on about? That was a hell of a tangent you rode off on. The black and white nonsense of 'eVery cAsE is technically travel related' is a tiresome roadblock in a debate used only to pin everything on travel and remove responsibility from the people spreading, not knowingly of course for a lot but plenty who recklessly did, which every country had.

Every case is travel related. Every subsequent case of transmission here is due to people trying to live a normal life. We've been told to not live normally this last year in order to control this highly infectious disease.

Things won't return to normal while anyone can just pop in to Ireland with a pinky promise to isolate.

Admittedly the best time to do this was before lots of people went on a summer holiday (living normally) and brought back new chains of transmission.

It's still worth doing though as a variant could emerge that could spread quicker than we can get a new updated vaccine into people's arms.

That's the reality that governments see. I understand if you don't accept it.