Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

Corholio

caveat emptor wrote: »

Every case is travel related. Every subsequent case of transmission here is due to people trying to live a normal life. We've been told to not live normally this last year in order to control this highly infectious disease.

Things won't return to normal while anyone can just pop in to Ireland with a pinky promise to isolate.

Admittedly the best time to do this was before lots of people went on a summer holiday (living normally) and brought back new chains of transmission.

It's still worth doing though as a variant could emerge that could spread quicker than we can get a new updated vaccine into people's arms.

That's the reality that governments see. I understand if you don't accept it.

Every person here who has tested positive has the same pinky promise to isolate too. So no one spread it recklessly then?, not following last years restrictions, house parties, unregulated meat plant distancing, reckless nursing home decisions in the early stages etc etc. A lot of the cases were completely innocent of course, but transmission was driven by lots of incidents, times of year, complete innocence and part recklessness. Ironically a reality the government couldn't see last year when certain measures would have been much better to do then.

Not sure how the argument got to here over an awful, dismissive phrase that only sets up an immediate bias from the start.

caveat emptor

Corholio wrote: »

Every person here who has tested positive has the same pinky promise to isolate too. So no one spread it recklessly then?, not following last years restrictions, house parties, unregulated meat plant distancing, reckless nursing home decisions in the early stages etc etc. A lot of the cases were completely innocent of course, but transmission was driven by lots of incidents, times of year, complete innocence and part recklessness. Ironically a reality the government couldn't see last year when certain measures would have been much better to do then.

Not sure how the argument got to here over an awful, dismissive phrase that only sets up an immediate bias from the start.

I'm not biased. The things you mention are massive issues in trying to control this and have undermined progress.

They are not very controllable though without chairman Mao level restrictions. As people are fond of saying "we aren't China".

Saying to people don't travel and if you do you have to stay in a hotel for 2 weeks is the lesser of two bad options.

Corholio

caveat emptor wrote: »

I'm not biased. The things you mention are massive issues in trying to control this and have undermined progress.

They are not very controllable though without chairman Mao level restrictions. As people are fond of saying "we aren't China".

Saying to people don't travel and if you do you have to stay in a hotel for 2 weeks is the lesser of two bad options.

Where was I arguing against this? I have issues with the setting up of the MHQ but Im not necessarily against elements of it being needed, although it should have happened much sooner, along with completely bungling Christmas it's the controversy it is now, needlessly. That's got nothing to do with the dismissive use of the phrase.

faceman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

'Jesus was that the speed limit Guard? I'd no idea!'.

Speeding isn’t a criminal offence

faceman

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Throw in manslaughter as well.

"Ignorance of the law is no defence" as the judge herself said.

It's not a requirement that you intended to actually commit a crime, just intended to commit the act that is a crime.

Anyway, their house of cards will all fall in open court

Ignorance of the law is separate to absolute liability, which as I mentioned, is unconstitutional is certain circumstances

faceman

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I don't get it also. Let's say the charge is assault.

You are charged with assault causing injury but you get off because it was not your intention to assault the person? But the issue remains that you assaulted the person.

There is also the charge of theft by finding. You find something on a road or wherever and take it knowing its not your property. You are seen / identified and charged with theft by finding. In court you argue you found it/did not steal it/ never meant to steal it but you are convicted of theft by finding.

And so it goes on..

They were detained because they refused to go into quarantine. It was not a random detention. The ammendment to the Health Act provides for arrest and imprisonment or fine or both for refusing to quarantine or leaving quarantine. Their detention was in line with that. You can't release them on bail back to liberty as that makes a mockery of the charge of refusing to quarantine. They would not loose the assumption of innocence by being detained, although by their own admissions, they clearly did refuse to enter mandatory hotel quarantine.

A judicial review will take ages and they don't come cheap. This whole thing stinks and the only ones that will benefit will be the legal profession employed to argue the case.

It’s not comparable with an assault case. There is no injured party here

My original post wasn’t my opinion. I was relaying what a barrister told me

faceman

If there’s no transparency and clear criteria on how countries get on the list, there’s no credibility. Also this is shit.

https://jrnl.ie/5402575

ninebeanrows

saabsaab wrote: »

There is a strong chance that a new variant could cause havoc with vaccination programmes. Best to delay reduce to a minimum international travel so any intake can be traced quickly and stopped.

Linsten to the Kingston Mills RTE I posted earlier.

There will always be variants of COVID, the world isn't eradicating this disease.

Should we close up shop for how long? months, years, 1, 2, 3?

There is no evidence the current vaccines do not work against any of the known variants. They will be tweaked to higher their cover against known ones for the next boosters we will likely get in 2022

If you decide to pick at will countries with so called variants then they could be on the list for years.

For example, why is Germany being added? What crazy ass variants do they have that is likely to arrive here through PCR negative pax?

No different chance to any other nation and it is minimal.

We have to accept some risk otherwise we shut ourselves off for long term, the advice from NEPHET has always been extremely cautious and severe.

The MHQ was set up for big outbreaks centres such as Brazil not for marginal cases like Germany etc, these should be on an amber list, not a red list.

I feel it is being abused by some zero covid people within public health

Happydays2020

faceman wrote: »

If there’s no transparency and clear criteria on how countries get on the list, there’s no credibility. Also this is shit.

https://jrnl.ie/5402575

That is the problem - it is all over the place.

Sure in December we were flying people home from the UK, and now happy to lock up people from countries with low incidence including Israel FFS.

The inclusion of EU countries on the list was not fully thought through, the transit issue was not fully explained, and they never implemented the risk based (and random) tests on arrival which could have supplemented normal advice asking people to show common sense when arriving from abroad. Not to mention doubling down on common sense advice to people in the community. And that is excluding the reality of a having an open border with a non EU country, the common travel area and our deep links to other parts of Europe (family, investments, trade, second homes etc).

I think we all get it that variants are a concern. But aside from stopping all flights and ferries, and closing the border, we are in mitigation territory but that mitigation (MHQ) and other measures needs to be absolutely focused on the highest risks and done correctly.

IQO

faceman wrote: »

If there’s no transparency and clear criteria on how countries get on the list, there’s no credibility. Also this is ****.

https://jrnl.ie/5402575

Now his name is out he won't get away with this anymore, but there are major flaws with MHQ making it easy to circumvent the hotel quarantine. There are no direct flights from Puerto Rico to Ireland, so it's likely he would have to fly back through the US. Given there is no MHQ for visitors from the US, and no exit-stamp when leaving Puerto Rico with a US passport - he would just be able to enter Ireland as long as he doesn't declare where he started the journey.

goingnowhere

Its time we changed the tune and banned every country by default

Revoke all visa free and visa travel. If you need to travel from outside the EEA/UK, you apply online ESTA style

Then have a clear protocol based on
0. Complete ban for high risk locations, e.g. Brazil, you ain't getting in no discussion, but if resident in Ireland -> Hotel (cannot refuse at border)
1. If there is any question as to the quailty of data about a country -> Hotel (Tanzania for example)
2. If more than X cases/000 or X% positivity -> Hotel
3. Then apply the traffic lights, requiring a test prior entry + 5 days for all non green countries

Chase the science and data not arbitrary assumptions. If anyone complains the process is public and based on evidence.

Thankfully Brazil does exit stamp...

Red Silurian

normanoffside wrote: »

Every case in the world is then travel related.

Finally you see the point

faceman

faceman wrote: »

Speeding isn’t a criminal offence

Actually, it is in common law legal systems. We only have two, criminal and civil. Spain operates a third level in-between. That's why a vetting form will almost always specifically exclude traffic offences.

faceman wrote: »

Ignorance of the law is separate to absolute liability, which as I mentioned, is unconstitutional is certain circumstances

They are related. They already tried ignorance as an excuse and mammy still is in the papers.

Absolute liability refers to, in part, the lack of mens rea aka criminal intent and the inability to stop an act aka act of god. Sadly for these two, as their court case will show, they had that intent as they made the conscious decision to travel against guidelines, after the quarantine was announced and after the Gardai spent nearly 2 hours explaining it too them.

It's a hail mary be the defence and why not, they get paid and their names in the papers. Wrong defendants for it though.

normanoffside

Red Silurian wrote: »

Finally you see the point

I think you are missing the point.

It's impossible to ban all travel, the world would collapse, billions would die due to starvation and other treatable causes.

josip

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its time we changed the tune and banned every country by default

Revoke all visa free and visa travel. If you need to travel from outside the EEA/UK, you apply online ESTA style

Then have a clear protocol based on
0. Complete ban for high risk locations, e.g. Brazil, you ain't getting in no discussion, but if resident in Ireland -> Hotel (cannot refuse at border)
1. If there is any question as to the quailty of data about a country -> Hotel (Tanzania for example)
2. If more than X cases/000 or X% positivity -> Hotel
3. Then apply the traffic lights, requiring a test prior entry + 5 days for all non green countries

Chase the science and data not arbitrary assumptions. If anyone complains the process is public and based on evidence.

Thankfully Brazil does exit stamp...

What an apt username
And you could see this coming down the tracks 15 years ago.

normanoffside

Not listening to Joe but this is the kind of nonsense this MHQ is bringing

https://twitter.com/rteliveline/status/1380141064552595457

JDD

normanoffside wrote: »

Not listening to Joe but this is the kind of nonsense this MHQ is bringing

https://twitter.com/rteliveline/status/1380141064552595457

This was exactly my point last night. Israel should not be on the MHQ list, it makes a nonsense of the whole list.

Red Silurian

normanoffside wrote: »

Not listening to Joe but this is the kind of nonsense this MHQ is bringing

https://twitter.com/rteliveline/status/1380141064552595457

It's stories like this that makes me think the govt haven't thought through the MHQ system... Or as leaky Leo would put it, we tried it and it didn't work, so now we are stopping it

Doctor Jimbob

JDD wrote: »

This was exactly my point last night. Israel should not be on the MHQ list, it makes a nonsense of the whole list.

Even ignoring the fact Israel shouldn't be on the list (which I completely agree with you on), the fact she has to quarantine is utter nonsense. Vaccinated AND has a negative test. What does forcing someone in that position into quarantine achieve?

Red Silurian

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Even ignoring the fact Israel shouldn't be on the list (which I completely agree with you on), the fact she has to quarantine is utter nonsense. Vaccinated AND has a negative test. What does forcing someone in that position into quarantine achieve?

Definitely as long as the vaccine is EU approved there is no reason to have MHQ! Is there a need for a negative test if vaccinated? I would argue there is not

saabsaab

ninebeanrows wrote: »

There will always be variants of COVID, the world isn't eradicating this disease.

Should we close up shop for how long? months, years, 1, 2, 3?

There is no evidence the current vaccines do not work against any of the known variants. They will be tweaked to higher their cover against known ones for the next boosters we will likely get in 2022

If you decide to pick at will countries with so called variants then they could be on the list for years.

For example, why is Germany being added? What crazy ass variants do they have that is likely to arrive here through PCR negative pax?

No different chance to any other nation and it is minimal.

We have to accept some risk otherwise we shut ourselves off for long term, the advice from NEPHET has always been extremely cautious and severe.

The MHQ was set up for big outbreaks centres such as Brazil not for marginal cases like Germany etc, these should be on an amber list, not a red list.

I feel it is being abused by some zero covid people within public health

You should listen to the Kingston Mills interview. Unless of course you have made up you mind.

bodhrandude

saabsaab wrote: »

You should listen to the Kingston Mills interview. Unless of course you have made up you mind.

Kingston Mills, any relation to the Irish rock group Columbia Mills?

ninebeanrows

Reposted due to link error

If you believe Ireland is breaching EU law and treaties as i do with Mandatory Hotel Quarantine of EU citizens with negative COVID PCR tests then please please take 5 minutes to lodge a complaint to the commission


To lodge a complain about Ireland to the commission
The link again for anyone seeking to lodge a complaint: https://ec.europa.eu/assets/sg/report-a-breach/complaints_en/


It is very straight forward

ninebeanrows

ninebeanrows wrote: »

If you believe Ireland is breaching EU law and treaties as i do with MHQ please please take 5 minutes to lodge a complaint to the commission

The link again for anyone seeking to lodge a complaint: https://ec.europa.eu/assets/sg/repor...complaints_en/


It is very straight forward.

and still a waste of your 5 minutes

ninebeanrows

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

and still a waste of your 5 minutes

Reposted due to link error

If you believe Ireland is breaching EU law and treaties as i do with Mandatory Hotel Quarantine of EU citizens with negative COVID PCR tests then please please take 5 minutes to lodge a complaint to the commission


To lodge a complain about Ireland to the commission
The link again for anyone seeking to lodge a complaint: https://ec.europa.eu/assets/sg/report-a-breach/complaints_en/


It is very straight forward

Happydays2020

ninebeanrows wrote: »

Reposted due to link error

If you believe Ireland is breaching EU law and treaties as i do with Mandatory Hotel Quarantine of EU citizens with negative COVID PCR tests then please please take 5 minutes to lodge a complaint to the commission


To lodge a complain about Ireland to the commission
The link again for anyone seeking to lodge a complaint: https://ec.europa.eu/assets/sg/report-a-breach/complaints_en/


It is very straight forward

What about the 2k fine for travelling out of the country to another EU country?

saabsaab

10 of those who passed through screening and now in quarantine have now tested positive for covid! Pity this wasn't in a year ago.

normanoffside

saabsaab wrote: »

10 of those who passed through screening and now in quarantine have now tested positive for covid! Pity this wasn't in a year ago.

10? Wow.
Over 600 who walked into pop up test centres over the last week with absolutely no symptoms tested positive, we only have these centres in a few places.

People flying into MHQ are actually testing positive at a lower level (2.3%) than random members of the resident Irish public with no symptoms(2.7%)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/retail-cultural-sites-reopening-possible-from-may-4th-if-we-hold-firm-1.4531000

Kaisr Sose

faceman wrote: »

It’s not comparable with an assault case. There is no injured party here

My original post wasn’t my opinion. I was relaying what a barrister told me

There is an injured party, the duboobi two. Injury does not have to be physical, it can be as simple as being prejudiced or discriminated against. The latter would seem to be close to what these would claim. Quarantine does not suit them

Some barrister will go to court and argue a perfect or near perfect case which they will have many hours to prepare. Ultimately, public health officials and those legislating in support of public health measures don't have such luxuries. They have to make decisions in real time. A country may not be red listed on one day but added the next. A person arriving on the second day cannot claim discrimination etc. Its a dynamic situation. Decisions are taken on the move.

I believe Austria is on the list because it has or had high numbers of the SA variant. UAE, I am not sure, but it was well publicised that they were on an international red list way before Ireland introduced its mandatory quarantine.

The dubooby duo had no urgent need to travel there, but chose to do so, contrary to public health and essential travel advice. The fact they had Covid tests while over there is a strong indication that they knew about the risk of contracting covid, yet still travelled.

It's total rubbish that they wish to blame the State for the situation they are in. For once in their lives they should accept they made a poor decision to travel, and an even poorer one to refuse to enter mandatory hotel quarantine. I doubt they will, simply because in their world, there is no personal accountability, it will always be someone else's fault things did not work out as they wanted it to.

Simon Harris put it quite well when he used the term 'Cop on'. That's what they these two need to do. Taking a constitutional challenge is merely to avoid them getting a criminal conviction. That potential outcome would have been avoided if they went to hotel quarantine.

saabsaab

normanoffside wrote: »

10? Wow.
Over 600 who walked into pop up test centres over the last week with absolutely no symptoms tested positive, we only have these centres in a few places.

People flying into MHQ are actually testing positive at a lower level (2.3%) than random members of the resident Irish public with no symptoms(2.7%)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/retail-cultural-sites-reopening-possible-from-may-4th-if-we-hold-firm-1.4531000

You miss the point. 10 out of those already screened ! Not to mention the new variants from abroad.