Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

faceman

Deleted User wrote: »

The USA and the UK will be fully vaccinated by August (assuming no roadblocks). And they’re be some kind of EU travel system.

How much of our travel will be exempt therefore from MHQ? I don’t know the number, but a lot. 75 - 80%?

is_that_so wrote: »

Not if we have very few cases and plenty vaccinated. They can claim it worked. It's unlikely to follow the extended time frame you imagine though and the EU will kick up quite a stink if we try.

But lads, you're forgetting about the uknown "variants" that are a concern even though they dont exist yet

McConkey and Staines are regularly telling us we will need MHQ for years.

FlubberJones

is_that_so wrote: »

Donnelly always seems to be looking for the worst possible way to explain himself.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/i-make-no-apology-to-the-european-commission-the-italian-ambassador-or-anybody-else-stephen-donnelly-defends-irelands-hotel-quarantine-system-40318354.html

That's an amusing read, he obviously thinks posturing and making this big stance to the EU is impressive... tis laughable.

Tordelback

faceman wrote: »

...If the government backs out of MHQ prematurely the public will revolt.

What would that look like, exactly? Other than long queues for flights to the Canaries, I mean.

The key word here is 'prematurely'. Seeing around 500 deaths a day in Italy, equivalent of about 50 in these parts, should be sobering enough to forestall the use of that term for a while, even if they are largely B117-related, a costly bridge we may already have crossed. The atrocious situation in Canada currently, even with twice as many one-dose vaccinations as we've managed, should be instructive enough about the value of caution.

is_that_so

FlubberJones wrote: »

That's an amusing read, he obviously thinks posturing and making this big stance to the EU is impressive... tis laughable.

It is his way!

a_squirrelman

faceman wrote: »

The EU is only interested in EU countries. If the government backs out of MHQ prematurely the public will revolt.

Public opinion seems to be 50/50. The only problem is the pro-MHQ crowd are infinitely louder.
I'm being called a middle class fascist on Twitter because I'm against it and I grew up in the flats.

I even saw some nasty comments about that surrogate family along the lines of them taking advantage of some poor Ukrainian to carry their child. Another about homeless people living in hotels for years but 2 weeks blah blah middle class something something.

The internet is bloody mental these days.

Valhallapt

faceman wrote: »

The EU is only interested in EU countries. If the government backs out of MHQ prematurely the public will revolt.

Well the reason the public will revolt is because they haven’t been given both sides of the MHQ story.

Ireland played its Brexit cards very skilfully, all that good work could be undone by Donnelly pandering to a Twitter mob.

I can’t remember the last time several of our most important trading partners ganged up to public ally chastise Ireland. They’re rightfully angry. We’re either European or we’re not

Sharpyshoot

FlubberJones wrote: »

That's an amusing read, he obviously thinks posturing and making this big stance to the EU is impressive... tis laughable.

A clown, we are an embarrassment to the eu.

Valhallapt

Alleged rapists and murderers are allowed home on bail.

Young children who have tested negative for covid twice are being locked up.

It’s not beyond the wit of man to come up with a sensible strategy to reduce inbound covid infections, can’t eliminate it because we have an open border with two Belfast airports which are busier than they have ever been.

I cannot understand how you can justify locking up families in hotels when they have empty houses they could be in. Get the travellers to pay a 2k surety that they get back once they prove they have left their house for two weeks.

There are always going to be people who break the rules.

mmclo

faceman wrote: »

You can’t get a MHQ exemption for funerals, busting dying relatives, for access arrangements to children, but you can get exemptions for elite sports. Says it all.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/other-sport/2021/0415/1210187-hotel-quarantine-exemption-for-elite-athletes-confirmed/

Micheal O'Higgins SC will have field day with this

mmclo

is_that_so wrote: »

The hotel contract and legislation I believe remain in effect until June.

The hotel contracts I believe are for 3 months beyond that

mmclo

is_that_so wrote: »

Donnelly always seems to be looking for the worst possible way to explain himself.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/i-make-no-apology-to-the-european-commission-the-italian-ambassador-or-anybody-else-stephen-donnelly-defends-irelands-hotel-quarantine-system-40318354.html

The reality is a Commission action would take years and both sides know it, they were pursuing us on water quality for 20 years!

caveat emptor

faceman wrote: »

But lads, you're forgetting about the uknown "variants" that are a concern even though they dont exist yet

McConkey and Staines are regularly telling us we will need MHQ for years.

So we are sequencing every genome in every part of the world?

How do you know that they don't exist? The've been popping up with quite a bit of frequency.

B.1.1.7 came here at the worst possible time and has since been proved to be

• more deadly
• more transmissible
• affect younger people more

This is a real issue. Back in December were screaming about doom mongering but it has been a major contributory factor in the longest strictest lock down we've had to get it back under school.

The South African one has been shown to evade immunity through infection or vaccine. So much so that they gave away their Astra allocation /orders.


Open schools and functioning hospitals are more important that holidays. Essential travel is well essential.

But yeah they are not real and there won't be more because it doesn't suit some people. Stop the lights.

https://twitter.com/inquirerdotnet/status/1382324107690262529?s=20

OwenM

beggars_bush wrote: »

Ara here.
What a ridiculous comment

Not really, the general public knew what they were and why they were there. The full reality was known, i.e. that nuns enslaved women and sold their babies abroad, even the infant mortality was the subject of inquiries.

Today, everyone knows why MHQ exists and what it hopes to achieve.

zebastein

At the same time, there is an article on RTE mentioning that some cases coming from India have a variant with 2 mutations (no proof that it is a threat) but India is not added on the MHQ list because there are 90+k Indian people in Ireland and that there is no capacity in the hotels. But there are countries like Monaco or some strange Island because that is useless but politicians can pretend that they have a huge list of countries.

timmyntc

caveat emptor wrote: »

So we are sequencing every genome in every part of the world?

How do you know that they don't exist? The've been popping up with quite a bit of frequency.

B.1.1.7 came here at the worst possible time and has since been proved to be

• more deadly
• more transmissible
• affect younger people more

This is a real issue. Back in December were screaming about doom mongering but it has been a major contributory factor in the longest strictest lock down we've had to get it back under school.

The South African one has been shown to evade immunity through infection or vaccine. So much so that they gave away their Astra allocation /orders.


Open schools and functioning hospitals are more important that holidays. Essential travel is well essential.

But yeah they are not real and there won't be more because it doesn't suit some people. Stop the lights.

https://twitter.com/inquirerdotnet/status/1382324107690262529?s=20

Total misinformation.
B.1.1.7 has been proven to not be any more deadly. More infectious yes, more fatal no. Outcomes are the same as the original strains.

The south African one does not evade vaccines - they are still effective.

saabsaab

zebastein wrote: »

At the same time, there is an article on RTE mentioning that some cases coming from India have a variant with 2 mutations (no proof that it is a threat) but India is not added on the MHQ list because there are 90+k Indian people in Ireland and that there is no capacity in the hotels. But there are countries like Monaco or some strange Island because that is useless but politicians can pretend that they have a huge list of countries.

You are making a case to stop all non essential travel.

fm

caveat emptor wrote: »

So we are sequencing every genome in every part of the world?

How do you know that they don't exist? The've been popping up with quite a bit of frequency.

B.1.1.7 came here at the worst possible time and has since been proved to be

• more deadly
• more transmissible
• affect younger people more

This is a real issue. Back in December were screaming about doom mongering but it has been a major contributory factor in the longest strictest lock down we've had to get it back under school.

The South African one has been shown to evade immunity through infection or vaccine. So much so that they gave away their Astra allocation /orders.


Open schools and functioning hospitals are more important that holidays. Essential travel is well essential.

But yeah they are not real and there won't be more because it doesn't suit some people. Stop the lights.

https://twitter.com/inquirerdotnet/status/1382324107690262529?s=20

Not more deadly

https://www.euronews.com/2021/04/13/kent-covid-19-variant-more-infectious-but-not-more-severe-two-studies-find

OwenM

caveat emptor wrote: »

So we are sequencing every genome in every part of the world?

How do you know that they don't exist? The've been popping up with quite a bit of frequency.

B.1.1.7 came here at the worst possible time and has since been proved to be

• more deadly
• more transmissible
• affect younger people more

This is a real issue. Back in December were screaming about doom mongering but it has been a major contributory factor in the longest strictest lock down we've had to get it back under school.

The South African one has been shown to evade immunity through infection or vaccine. So much so that they gave away their Astra allocation /orders.


Open schools and functioning hospitals are more important that holidays. Essential travel is well essential.

But yeah they are not real and there won't be more because it doesn't suit some people. Stop the lights.

https://twitter.com/inquirerdotnet/status/1382324107690262529?s=20

Not this auld ****e again, one small study and nobody admitted to hospital. It's not a real issue, nobody in this context is going into hospital or dying, they are catching a mild illness.



https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/03/astrazeneca-vaccine-doesnt-prevent-b1351-covid-early-trial
"Of the 750 participants vaccine recipients, 19 (2.5%) developed mild to moderate COVID-19 more than 14 days after the second dose, compared with 23 of 717 placebo recipients (3.2%). The incidence of COVID-19 among the vaccine group was 73.1 per 1,000 person-years, compared with 93.6 per 1,000 person-years among the placebo group, for an efficacy of 21.9% (95% confidence interval [CI], -49.9 to 59.8).

Of the 42 total cases of COVID-19, 39 (92.9%) were caused by B1351, for a vaccine effectiveness against this variant of 10.4% (95% CI, -76.8 to 54.8). All 42 cases were mild to moderate, and no patients were hospitalized."


And even for those reinfected it's mild to moderate.

https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/opinion/2021-03-04-shabir-a-madhi-decision-not-to-use-astrazeneca-vaccine-goes-against-the-spirit-of-what-the-health-department-espoused/

"This provided the first conclusive evidence that the mutations included in the B. 1.351 were clinically significant, and that despite 35-45% of South Africans (especially in densely populated urban areas) likely to have been infected during the course of the first wave by the prototype virus, such infection did not confer any protection against developing mild to moderate Covid-19 due to the B. 1351 variant."

crossman47

This is a mess and the media have played a big part. They gave a platform to all those looking for MHQ but, as soon as it came in, publicised every sob story they could find. Wait for July and a headline about some 90 year old who didn't get vaccinated. Shock, horror.

Valhallapt

MHQ won’t work.

The majority of people live within a ~2 hour drive of two unrestricted airports which have better choice than ever.

The four freedoms of the EU are insoluble, you can’t single out countries and arbitrarily restrict movement of their people and assume they’ll be no consequences. While the commission will be slow to do anything, twice in the last 12 months France has turned the screw at Calais, first time to force the brits into a lockdown.

Ireland is overly dependent on FDI, American executives will not travel to Ireland to be jailed. I’d be surprised if the dfa isn’t already coming under huge pressure to exempt US nationals.

MHQ is repugnant to the constitution, it is likely to be struck down if it gets in-front of a judge, hence the government caving in on every challenge to it thus far.

I think everyone agrees we need to stop variants coming in and reseeding COVID. But MHQ is a bad approach. A grown up thoughtful approach which deals with all the facts needs to be had. At the moment we have that gormless Donnelly acting the hard man to the EU all to appease some anonymous Twitter trolls.

The Davestator

Valhallapt wrote: »

MHQ won’t work.

The majority of people live within a ~2 hour drive of two unrestricted airports which have better choice than ever.

The four freedoms of the EU are insoluble, you can’t single out countries and arbitrarily restrict movement of their people and assume they’ll be no consequences. While the commission will be slow to do anything, twice in the last 12 months France has turned the screw at Calais, first time to force the brits into a lockdown.

Ireland is overly dependent on FDI, American executives will not travel to Ireland to be jailed. I’d be surprised if the dfa isn’t already coming under huge pressure to exempt US nationals.

MHQ is repugnant to the constitution, it is likely to be struck down if it gets in-front of a judge, hence the government caving in on every challenge to it thus far.

I think everyone agrees we need to stop variants coming in and reseeding COVID. But MHQ is a bad approach. A grown up thoughtful approach which deals with all the facts needs to be had. At the moment we have that gormless Donnelly acting the hard man to the EU all to appease some anonymous Twitter trolls.

And hold on to his seat as SF are breathing down his neck if and when an election is called.

Corholio

OwenM wrote: »

Not this auld ****e again, one small study and nobody admitted to hospital. It's not a real issue, nobody in this context is going into hospital or dying, they are catching a mild illness.



https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/03/astrazeneca-vaccine-doesnt-prevent-b1351-covid-early-trial
"Of the 750 participants vaccine recipients, 19 (2.5%) developed mild to moderate COVID-19 more than 14 days after the second dose, compared with 23 of 717 placebo recipients (3.2%). The incidence of COVID-19 among the vaccine group was 73.1 per 1,000 person-years, compared with 93.6 per 1,000 person-years among the placebo group, for an efficacy of 21.9% (95% confidence interval [CI], -49.9 to 59.8).

Of the 42 total cases of COVID-19, 39 (92.9%) were caused by B1351, for a vaccine effectiveness against this variant of 10.4% (95% CI, -76.8 to 54.8). All 42 cases were mild to moderate, and no patients were hospitalized."


And even for those reinfected it's mild to moderate.

https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/opinion/2021-03-04-shabir-a-madhi-decision-not-to-use-astrazeneca-vaccine-goes-against-the-spirit-of-what-the-health-department-espoused/

"This provided the first conclusive evidence that the mutations included in the B. 1.351 were clinically significant, and that despite 35-45% of South Africans (especially in densely populated urban areas) likely to have been infected during the course of the first wave by the prototype virus, such infection did not confer any protection against developing mild to moderate Covid-19 due to the B. 1351 variant."

Someone was brought up by mods in last few days for parroting the false info about the vaccine on the SA variant based on that study. This finalisation of wording is a serious **** stirrer imo and very reckless, for one aim too.

Valhallapt

The Davestator wrote: »

And hold on to his seat as SF are breathing down his neck if and when an election is called.

Yes, happens all too often. Politician puts self interest above the country.

NSAman

Tit for tat? Spain and Italy are talking about bringing in MHQ for Irish citizens?








Can imagine the whine line then..;)

joseywhales

crossman47 wrote: »

This is a mess and the media have played a big part. They gave a platform to all those looking for MHQ but, as soon as it came in, publicised every sob story they could find. Wait for July and a headline about some 90 year old who didn't get vaccinated. Shock, horror.

While I agree with everything you have said, I do not blame the media for the mess. It's not really the medias job to lead us through this, if we haven't got politicians that can cut through the noise, then we need new ones. The media is such a large collections of opinions that you will never satisfy most of them.

Blut2

joseywhales wrote: »

While I agree with everything you have said, I do not blame the media for the mess. It's not really the medias job to lead us through this, if we haven't got politicians that can cut through the noise, then we need new ones. The media is such a large collections of opinions that you will never satisfy most of them.

The media is partially to blame, for their repeatedly demanding MHQ be brought in. But the buck stops with our politicians. Instead of spending months "investigating" and "implementing" MHQ, all it would have taken was some of them to stand up and say "MHQ would be nice, but its not possible to bring in given our constitutional obligations to our citizens, our commitments to EU law, our economic reliance on FDI, and the practicalities of our open border with Northern Ireland".

If our Tanaiste/Taoiseach/Minister of Health had came out forcefully saying that then the matter would have been dropped from public debate within a week. It wouldn't have been popular initially, but it would have been honest. And in time that would have been seen as entirely reasonable, and their honesty would have gotten them praise.

Instead, they privately admitted they didn't want to bring in MHQ, drew the matter out for as long as possible, and eventually hesitantly implemented a system thats a complete farce. Vast sums of money are being wasted, the public image of Ireland with our trading partners is being tarnished, and individual Irish citizens who can't visit dying relatives are suffering life changing emotional damage. All because our leaders were afraid to stand up admit the unpopular truth to the public.

FileNotFound

In fairness to the media comments above, while it may not be the media who should guide us they have worked extremely hard on all sides to sow chaos and confusion. There has been a lot of very poor quality reporting, jumping on any soundbite from anyone, and throwing up very 1 sided articles dependent on the outlets point of view.

The Gov have been very poor at clear communication over the past few months, limping from one issue to the next, no proper goals, just repetitive one liners saying "following scientific advice", "taking a cautious approach" or "constrained by XXX, not our fault".

Even if the line is true, just offering the same one again and again does not better inform of appease the public.

I'm not even too critical of the job they have done (I do agree lots of errors and really don't like donnelly) but the messaging at least has been poor.

Golfman64

Sharpyshoot wrote: »

A clown, we are an embarrassment to the eu.

Yeah SD has made a complete fool out of himself with regards to MHQ. Firstly, forcing it in and now the complete shambles it continues to be, sucking up valuable resources in terms of time and money.

The sooner one of the adults in government steps in and sorts out the mess, the better before he brings them all down.

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

https://twitter.com/inquirerdotnet/status/1382324107690262529?s=20

I counter sensationalist reporting with up to date facts:
https://diviexchange.blob.core.windows.net/%24web/DIVI_Intensivregister_Report.pdf

That is the situation as of today with regard to intensive care load in Germany.

caveat emptor

timmyntc wrote: »

Total misinformation.
B.1.1.7 has been proven to not be any more deadly. More infectious yes, more fatal no. Outcomes are the same as the original strains.

The south African one does not evade vaccines - they are still effective.

Not all vaccines are equal as we are learning. South Africa gave away there AZ.

Why would they do that?

The average age of the trial participant was young so now hospitalisation or death was observed in either arm. Not enough data yet either way.

The S.A variant isn't an issue thus far. UK is throwing the kitchen sink at it to contain. Going door to door in large boroughs of London to contain it. You may not like facts but that's what they are.

If it does spread in U.K there'll be a lot more data to confirm or reject various unknowns. Hopefully it doesn't. I would not be so sure.

Are you saying the Financial Times is lying?

Surge testing has been expanded to four London boroughs as concern grows that the test and trace programme cannot contain a coronavirus variant that has shown increasing signs of vaccine resistance.

A total of 56 cases of the variant first identified in South Africa were found in the week to April 14, according to data released on Thursday, taking the total confirmed cases since it was first detected in December to 600.

The largest “surge testing” operation since the start of the pandemic was launched in the boroughs of Wandsworth and Lambeth on Tuesday, then extended to postcodes in Southwark and Barnet, as public health officials urgently try to halt the spread of the strain, named 501Y.V2.



the new cases have caused concern in the government as several of those infected had received at least one shot of either the AstraZeneca or Pfizer vaccine, suggesting the variant may have been able to resist vaccine protection, according to one test and trace official.

https://twitter.com/FT/status/1382737598762864640?s=20