Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are twisting words. Detaining someone who isn't spreading the virus because they have already been immunized or vaccinated is "a spurious reason".

Nope. Just what it is.

We've already discussed that. Apparently the restrictions for those who are fully vaccinated are changing - and as such won't be required to enter into MHQ

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Nope. Just what it is.

We've already discussed that. Apparently the restrictions for those who are fully vaccinated are changing - and as such won't be required to enter into MHQ

And I've made it clear that nobody is going to travel until it is on the statute books. Are you just being obtuse? You are soundly beaten on this point.
The law enforces MHQ. The Minister will be in no hurry to adjust it for those who should never have been subject to the quarantine to begin with.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And I've made it clear that nobody is going to travel until it is on the statute books. Are you just being obtuse? You are soundly beaten on this point.
The law enforces MHQ. The Minister will be in no hurry to adjust it for those who should never have been subject to the quarantine to begin with.

Have you? Are you being "obtuse"? Because it Looks like the changes are already being processed. So yup that will be the new status quo. You are soundly beaten on this point. Eitherway where people choose to not travel in the first place - they won't be "subject the quarantine to begin with" will they?

Funnily enough the UK has no such exemption with regard to its MHQ ...

Edit. Update it seems its already in place

Minister must have been in a hurry ...

https://www.thejournal.ie/hotel-quarantine-exemptions-5406098-Apr2021/

Regulations have been signed and are in operation from today to allow for a limited number of exemptions from Mandatory Hotel Quarantine,” said Minister Donnelly

While fully vaccinated people travelling from a listed country will no longer need to be quarantined in a hotel, they are still obliged to quarantine at home for two weeks. They must also present a negative PCR test.

Happy?

Van.Bosch

Say two parents have vaccines and kids under 16 don’t. What happens then with MHQ?

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Have you? Are you being "obtuse"? Because it Looks like the changes are already being processed. So yup that will be the new status quo. You are soundly beaten on this point. Eitherway where people choose to not travel in the first place - they won't be "subject the quarantine to begin with" will they?

Funnily enough the UK has no such exemption with regard to its MHQ ...

Edit. Update it seems its already in place

Minister must have been in a hurry ...

https://www.thejournal.ie/hotel-quarantine-exemptions-5406098-Apr2021/



Happy?

No. A civil right is being overridden by a law introduced in haste. It needs to be removed from statute.
Here is a scenario: If someone was returning from abroad and the Government wanted to limit that person's movement they could make themselves available to give the exemption. A person's liberty shouldn't be within the gift of the Minister for Health.

Valhallapt

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Say two parents have vaccines and kids under 16 don’t. What happens then with MHQ?

Well historically we took the children and sold them in the USA. But apparently MHQ can’t be compared to other times when Ireland detained people without trial... so who knows

jimmycrackcorm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0416/1210286-quarantine-high-court/

"Dr Darina O'Flanagan, who is also an adviser to the National Public Health Emergency Team, said the last thing she wanted was that in the summer there would be huge outbreaks of the South African variant here, against which vaccines would not work.
Dr O'Flanagan said current vaccines do not work as well against the South African and Brazilian variants, and it was really important to make sure they do not get a foothold in the country."
Either she is being misquoted or has a loose relationship with the truth.

The vaccines do work, just not as effective compared to the non-variants.
The problem is going to be that as variants arise, this will always be the case and her arguments will be the same. So we can never change unless it is accepted that there is going to be some scenarios whereby people are still going to die because of covid.

It's like saying we need to keep in lockdown and MHQ until people give up driving because some die in car accidents.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No. A civil right is being overridden by a law introduced in haste. It needs to be removed from statute.
Here is a scenario: If someone was returning from abroad and the Government wanted to limit that person's movement they could make themselves available to give the exemption. A person's liberty shouldn't be within the gift of the Minister for Health.

Eh? That makes no sense. Of course they "could". They could also declare that Kim Jong Un as our new overlord or Michael D Higgins as the new King of Ireland.

As it is current covid related legislation is limited. And without an overwhelming reason such as I dunno a global pandemic then otherwise quarentine wouldn't happen.

Public health and quarantining people for that reason is within the remit of the Minister for Health.

Are things likley subject to change / alteration at least until the pandemic is properly controlled? Yes most likely. The current change is a case in point.

beggars_bush

Valhallapt wrote: »

Well historically we took the children and sold them in the USA. But apparently MHQ can’t be compared to other times when Ireland detained people without trial... so who knows

magdelene/covid conspiracy incoming

Valhallapt

beggars_bush wrote: »

magdelene/covid conspiracy incoming

Not at all, but people on here think it’s perfectly ok to detain families who have been fully vaccinated and tested negative for covid and confine them in a shoebox as they can’t be trusted to isolate in their own home. But their neighbours are free to throw house party after house party and run very little risk of a small fine.

beggars_bush

Valhallapt wrote: »

Not at all, but people on here think it’s perfectly ok to detain families who have been fully vaccinated and tested negative for covid and confine them in a shoebox as they can’t be trusted to isolate in their own home. But their neighbours are free to throw house party after house party and run very little risk of a small fine.

maybe email your local TDs abut the second part of your post

saabsaab

Valhallapt wrote: »

Not at all, but people on here think it’s perfectly ok to detain families who have been fully vaccinated and tested negative for covid and confine them in a shoebox as they can’t be trusted to isolate in their own home. But their neighbours are free to throw house party after house party and run very little risk of a small fine.

One does not relate to the other but the parties shouldn't go ahead at present. Where are new variants more like to come from?

Prisoner6409

This has been a total failure by Government, while we joe public have not been allowed travel 5km's from our homes others have been allowed fly thousands of miles around the world spreading all sorts of variants and don't get me started on the idiots who want to be allowed fly to meet someone they have only ever met online, ffs, you would think we were not in the middle of a Global Pandemic.

gozunda

Prisoner6409 wrote: »

This has been a total failure by Government, while we joe public have not been allowed travel 5km's from our homes others have been allowed fly thousands of miles around the world spreading all sorts of variants and don't get me started on the idiots who want to be allowed fly to meet someone they have only ever met online, ffs, you would think we were not in the middle of a Global Pandemic.

Though better we have it now than not at all. It was reported that more than approx. 30,000 people flew through Dublin Airport for holidays in the time between the Government flagged enhanced fines for non-essential travel and the heavier fines being enacted. 30,000 people flying for "holidays" in the midst of a global fuqing pandemic.

Not flying to look after their sick granny or having to so do for work. Nope fuking holidays. And yeah that's not to say holidays are not important for all of us. But if some precious eejit believes that their immediate holiday outweighs the needs for keeping the infection rate down whilst vaccinations are being carried out - they can be locked up and I'll personally throw away the key.

You have to appreciate the neck of those (and excluding genuine essential cases tbf) of the heads flying in from red list countries - who not only have decided they are personally exempt from any travel restrictions but on top of that - they should be also exempt from MHQ because well because they're well special. Imho much the same proviso applies to that cohort of eejits as well. :mad:

caveat emptor

I think this illustrates why pre departure testing isn't the catch-all people want.

https://twitter.com/KarenGrepin/status/1383785013548777475?s=20

22 more passengers tested positive today after their Day 12 hotel quarantine test.

faceman

saabsaab wrote: »

One does not relate to the other but the parties shouldn't go ahead at present. Where are new variants more like to come from?

Cool let’s just ignore domestic sources of transmission saabx2

Stevek101

caveat emptor wrote: »

I think this illustrates why pre departure testing isn't the catch-all people want.

https://twitter.com/KarenGrepin/status/1383785013548777475?s=20

As most tested positive on the 12th day it's more than likely they acquired it in MHQ and not onboard.

caveat emptor

Stevek101 wrote: »

As most tested positive on the 12th day it's more than likely they acquired it in MHQ and not onboard.

22 out of 47 isn't most.

Stevek101

caveat emptor wrote: »

22 out of 47 isn't most.

I didn't see when the others tested positive. Even if it was day 5 it would suggest exposure at MHQ.

gozunda

faceman wrote: »

Cool let’s just ignore domestic sources of transmission saabx2

No I don't think that means that at all. Certainly domestic sources of transmission have to be managed and if that means enforcing restrictions then so be it.

As to "Where are new variants more like to come from?"

A principle route is known to be undetected travel related cases which means that some spread covid unknowingly.

is_that_so

gozunda wrote: »

No I don't think that means that at all. Certainly domestic sources of transmission have to be managed and if that means enforcing restrictions then so be it.

As to "Where are new variants more like to come from?"

A principle route is known to be undetected travel related cases which means that some spread covid unknowingly.

There are 750K of these variants and an absolutely minute number have been shown to be VOCs. The current extreme alarm is because of a lack of vaccinated population pools.

caveat emptor

Stevek101 wrote: »

I didn't see when the others tested positive. Even if it was day 5 it would suggest exposure at MHQ.

No it wouldn't if the incubation period is on average 6 days.

gozunda

is_that_so wrote: »

There are 750K of these variants and an absolutely minute number have been shown to be VOCs. The current extreme alarm is because of a lack of a vaccinated population pools.

It only takes one VOC to be an issue. See B.1.1.7 here after Christmas.

We don't need any others...

So yes getting people vaccinated whilst keeping a lid on the rate of infection is the main goal atm.

Stevek101

caveat emptor wrote: »

No it wouldn't if the incubation period is on average 6 days.

Odds are against onboard transmission. All passengers had the gold standard PCR test which will pick up the virus pre, post and asymptomatically. As the majority tested positive many days after arrival combined with the lack of contact tracing to find the source makes the most probable source the MHQ.

Many MHQ hotels lack windows that can be opened and staff are tested only once a week. That combined with guest mingling and lack of hard evidence of on board transmission has all fingers pointing in one direcion.

It's the leaky part of the whole travel experience. But lets not get the facts get in the way of a good lie.

is_that_so

gozunda wrote: »

It only takes one VOC to be an issue. See B.1.1.7 here after Christmas.

We don't need any others...

So yes getting people vaccinated whilst keeping a lid on the rate of infection is the main goal atm.

Fear of what might be over getting control of what is, is not a sound policy.

gozunda

Stevek101 wrote: »

As most tested positive on the 12th day it's more than likely they acquired it in MHQ and not onboard.

No - some 22 of the 47 cases detected were found to be positive after 12 days of quarantine

That means that 25 (the majority) cases were detected as having tested positive for covid after arriving in Hong Kong

That said it can take up to 14 days for people to develop the disease and / or become asymptomatic

But yes you're correct in one possible regard. Hong Kong has very strict entry requirements, and all arriving international passengers are both tested and put into a quarantine facility following arrival. So yes there was some potential that there was some limited cross infection in the quarantine hotel with families staying together.

OwenM

Stevek101 wrote: »

Odds are against onboard transmission. All passengers had the gold standard PCR test which will pick up the virus pre, post and asymptomatically. As the majority tested positive many days after arrival combined with the lack of contact tracing to find the source makes the most probable source the MHQ.

Many MHQ hotels lack windows that can be opened and staff are tested only once a week. That combined with guest mingling and lack of hard evidence of on board transmission has all fingers pointing in one direcion.

It's the leaky part of the whole travel experience. But lets not get the facts get in the way of a good lie.

That makes me laugh, yes it is 'the gold standard' but in reality it means we don't have anything better than it. It is a terrible test, the inventor is on record as saying it should not be used like this. PCR gives positive results for people before, during and after an infection. Sometimes people can test positive several weeks after recovery.

gozunda

Stevek101 wrote: »

Odds are against onboard transmission. All passengers had the gold standard PCR test which will pick up the virus pre, post and asymptomatically. As the majority tested positive many days after arrival combined with the lack of contact tracing to find the source makes the most probable source the MHQ.

Many MHQ hotels lack windows that can be opened and staff are tested only once a week. That combined with guest mingling and lack of hard evidence of on board transmission has all fingers pointing in one direcion.

It's the leaky part of the whole travel experience. But lets not get the facts get in the way of a good lie.

Not so. There is a growing number of cases where on board spread has been shown to be the most likely cause of infection.

In the Hong Kong case - the majority (25) were found to be positive with Covid shortly after arriving in Hong Kong.

One of the most extensive research of transmission after pre-travel testing comes from the New Zealand Ministry of Health, which joined with other researchers to study seven infected people who traveled aboard Emirates Flight 448 from Dubai to Auckland last year.

Two of the seven were likely infected before traveling but had tested negative in Zurich, Switzerland, within 72 hours of departing on their trip. Four of the seven were likely infected in-flight, the study found, and another likely during mandatory 14-day quarantine in New Zealand required of all passengers.

All seven people had genetically identical strains of the virus, even though the passengers had originated in five different countries. All seven sat within two rows of the presumed spreaders, and all were in aisle seats, the study reported. Travelers reported wearing masks and some wore gloves. There were 86 passengers on the Boeing 777.

As highlighted PCR is at best a snapshot in time. Once taken - it does not stop someone contacting covid whilst in transit, in the airport or flying. There is also an known issue with false negatives in a small number of cases.

normanoffside

gozunda wrote: »

No - some 22 of the 47 cases detected were found to be positive after 12 days of quarantine

That means that 25 (the majority) cases were detected as having tested positive for covid after arriving in Hong Kong

That said it can take up to 14 days for people to develop the disease and / or become asymptomatic

But yes you're correct in one possible regard. Hong Kong has very strict entry requirements, and all arriving international passengers are both tested and put into a quarantine facility following arrival. So yes there was some potential that there was some limited cross infection in the quarantine hotel with families staying together.

The tweet says they all tested negative on Arrival and that 22 tested positive after day 12, the other 25 at some point in between (not sure of the MHQ testing system in HK but if tested on Day 0 and Day 12, probably a test half way in between (day 6?).

Sounds like they either picked it up at the Hotel or perhaps even from a staff member when being held at the Airport for day 0 tests.

caveat emptor

Stevek101 wrote: »

Odds are against onboard transmission. All passengers had the gold standard PCR test which will pick up the virus pre, post and asymptomatically. As the majority tested positive many days after arrival combined with the lack of contact tracing to find the source makes the most probable source the MHQ.

Many MHQ hotels lack windows that can be opened and staff are tested only once a week. That combined with guest mingling and lack of hard evidence of on board transmission has all fingers pointing in one direcion.

It's the leaky part of the whole travel experience. But lets not get the facts get in the way of a good lie.

Who's lying?
So you are saying 47 people independently contracted in hotel quarantine?

That's a stretch, Most likely lots of them got it on the plane.

Also they were in different hotels.