Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

saabsaab

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Can you provide the evidence of that? That these variants are resistant to the vaccines particularly the vaccine most in use in Ireland.

Plenty of debate on the subject.


Just one example..


https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjg56j8pIvwAhUjQhUIHfH_A0YQFjADegQIBhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.express.co.uk%2Flife-style%2Fhealth%2F1424082%2Findia-covid-variant-double-mutation-b-1-617-immune-escape-infectivity&usg=AOvVaw3uQhnfmJlIOvxViVjwF4kn

Valhallapt

saabsaab wrote: »

Variants new and unknown.

When does the threat of unknowns cease?

caveat emptor

This is an odd one. Airline industry publishing it's own research can hardly be called independent.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/04/19/record-flight-covid-19-us-contact-tracing/

One likely reason is that the airline industry has pushed back on government-mandated restrictions, while issuing its own research and implementing protocols it claims prove that flying is a low-risk activity.

Last October, the airline industry released a study that concluded the “risk of contracting the virus on board appears to be in the same category as being struck by lightning,”

At the same time, multiple independent studies — from the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Ireland, Vietnam and other countries — have found that Covid-19 can indeed spread on long-haul flights. In each case, researchers traced Covid-19 outbreaks back to one or more individuals who had recently flown on a commercial flight.

Regards the India Hong Kong flight. Here's the info. Very unlucky to have that level I guess on a flight.

There is a new record for the number of coronavirus infections traced back to a single commercial airline flight. A whopping 47 passengers who flew on Vistara flight 6395 from New Delhi to Hong Kong on April 4 have since tested positive for Covid-19. That number represents 25% of the 188 passengers on board.

All of the passengers on the Vistara flight had tested negative for the virus within 72 hours prior to departure, in keeping with Hong Kong’s travel requirements. Yet 25 travelers tested positive immediately after landing in Hong Kong, and a further 22 cases were discovered on day 12.

I think India really needs to be on a list at this stage, I know it is in the UK. Crazy number of cases coming into Canada from there.
40 flights with positive cases in the past couple of weeks arrived there from India. 2-3 flights a day!


https://twitter.com/BryanPassifiume/status/1384324349486780421?s=20

Happydays2020

saabsaab wrote: »

Plenty of debate on the subject.


Just one example..


https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjg56j8pIvwAhUjQhUIHfH_A0YQFjADegQIBhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.express.co.uk%2Flife-style%2Fhealth%2F1424082%2Findia-covid-variant-double-mutation-b-1-617-immune-escape-infectivity&usg=AOvVaw3uQhnfmJlIOvxViVjwF4kn

So to be clear. Your response to my question was a link to the front page of the Daily Express.

JDD

FF implemented MHQ because of the number of letters written to them by voters in Jan/Feb - the worst part of the lockdown - saying that it was unfair that we had to enter another strict lockdown when it was clear that the government wanted to put no controls whatsoever on people coming into the country. FF needed a win after the spike in cases.

Unfortunately, this was not the action to pick as a win. 8 weeks to source an empty hotel, enter into a contract with them, and draft and pass the relevant legislation. The Health Act last year was drafted and passed in 14 days. So that was FU No.1.

As we entered March and April, as frustrated as people are with the vaccine rollout, the weather got better and the cases came down and we could see light at the end of the tunnel. Sitting back we could see the folly of MHQ. The border into NI remains open, so anything that comes into the UK comes into Ireland straight away (e.g. Indian variant). Did they even consider this? FU No.2

There were no exemptions for vaccinated people. FU No.3. There were no exemptions for people stopping over in an airport of a red list country. FU No.4. Anyone from an EU country is allowed in (as if covid knows you're French).5. FU No. There was a vast underestimation of the number of people flying for essential reasons - probably because of the media completely overplaying the number of people going on holidays to Lanzarote. So we ran out of hotel places and had to shut bookings down. FU No.6.

So we're left with a system where people who are vaccinated or are from low risk countries have to hotel quarantine and pay handsomely for the privilege. Meanwhile, EU citizens and UK citizens can move freely in and out of the country with home quarantine being the order of the day.

It's a nonsense.

It was an FF half measure designed to appeal to their voter base that could never have worked because MHQ only works if you apply it to everyone coming into the country, like in Australia/NZ. We KNEW that was never feasible. That's why other EU countries haven't brought it in.

I'd love to know how much we've spent on all this. How many social workers could this have paid for?

Valhallapt

KLM have resumed full service from Belfast city this morning. The two Belfast airports are on course to smash passenger number records this summer

FileNotFound

fm wrote: »

FG are as much to blame for this,they have gone along with MHQ so they must have made some kind of behind the scenes political deal with FF.

In fairness - SF/FF/FG and et all can be blamed for MHQ.

SF and others shouted non stop about MHQ until its here and now they are quiet.

FF pushed it through, Greens in full support. FG are part of Gov so blame shared even if they didn't want it in.


It is pretty shocking how badly planned it was and how fast it is all spiralling down hill

munchkin_utd

JDD wrote: »

So we're left with a system where people who are vaccinated or are from low risk countries have to hotel quarantine and pay handsomely for the privilege. Meanwhile, EU citizens and UK citizens can move freely in and out of the country with home quarantine being the order of the day.

EU citizens cannot move in an out freely.

the home quarantine is manditory with fines for breaking it and a manditory test again after 5 days.
Its now far stricter (rightly so) than the previous wishy washy recommended restriction of movements and its enough of a deterent that you wouldnt think of visiting Ireland unless you had a pressing reason or literally are just planning on staying put for an extended period of time.
And thats leaving aside the peer pressure from neighbours and twichy curtains when they see yourself back from abroad, and if any outbreak happens within 100km you'd get the blame!

And thats aside from the cost of it or the practicality of it. For instance, theres only 1 daily flight from anywhere in Germany to Ireland now from Frankfurt. If youre in Berlin, Hamburg or Munich you need sit on a train with an FFP2 mask for 4 to 6 hours to get to Frankfurt (up to 100Euro train fare), a PCR test before hand for 100 Euro, and another PCR test in Ireland for another 100Euro approx. (Is there another PCR test on arrival in Ireland?) . On the way back you could be looking at a further PCR test adding up to the guts of 500Euro for tests and whatnot per person, on top of the flight.

For a family of 4 thats the guts of 2000Euro on top of flights and probably 2 extra days off work, to sit in home quarantine with the kids for at least 5 days, in a country in lockdown. FFS, cop on if you think this is happening en masse. Its not.

There may be a problem with folks from the UK treating a spin from London to Mayo the same as Castlebar to Belmullet but thats a different issue than folks from the EU.

is_that_so

fm wrote: »

FG are as much to blame for this,they have gone along with MHQ so they must have made some kind of behind the scenes political deal with FF.

They are against the idea but there's little political capital in opposing it publicly when everyone else wants it and voted for it.

JDD

I'm not saying that people travelling in from the EU don't also have to quarantine at home. I'm just flummoxed at the reasoning why someone from Berlin is allowed to quarantine at the house they have rented, or their home here, when someone from the US isn't?

I disagree with MHQ as a concept, unless we have the ability to roll it out to everyone arriving from every country, including Northern Ireland. Widespread MHQ only works if you are going for a zero covid policy.

If we are not going for zero covid, but are trying to ensure variants don't enter the country, restrict the red list to countries where there are known variants which are either more contagious or we don't know yet if they are more contagious. Right now that is india, Brazil and South Africa. Everyone else quarantines at home or at their rented accommodation and that is enforced.

This nonsense of adding hundreds of countries, while not being transparent about what leads a country to be on the list, is farcical. Knowing that the border to NI is freely open so if a variant gets into the UK it is likely to be in Ireland before it is even identified as a variant. And appearing to treat EU citizens as somehow less likely to bring in a variant then someone from a red list country and can be allowed to quarantine at home is just..... Just exactly how I expect this government to roll out a plan like this. Like a five year old planned it.

It would be funny if it wasn't so f*cking depressing and remember it is our taxpayers money paying for this hotel quarantine debacle - money that could be going to social housing or more social workers or a myriad of other better areas.

FileNotFound

I do have one question.

So assuming (based on the last few months) more variants keep popping up (like the flu does every year) at what point do we decide we no longer need worry about variants and life returns to normal.

I understand that while some vaccines may be less effective at stopping variants giving people mild to moderate illness they are still highly effective at stopping any severe illness or hospitalisation.

The current narrative seems to be an eternal plan for lockdowns and MHQ's - but surely there must be some actual end game aim here? Like when X% of the population have been vaccinated or similar?

corkonion

Greece is opening up for Eu and a small number of other countries, a pcr test or vaccination cert allows entry without quarantine.

saabsaab

corkonion wrote: »

Greece is opening up for Eu and a small number of other countries, a pcr test or vaccination cert allows entry without quarantine.

You can go but will you be allowed back without quarantine?

josip

saabsaab wrote: »

You can go but will you be allowed back without quarantine?

Would anyone want to come back with all the curtain twitchers and fear mongers here?

Red Silurian

FileNotFound wrote: »

I do have one question.

So assuming (based on the last few months) more variants keep popping up (like the flu does every year) at what point do we decide we no longer need worry about variants and life returns to normal.

I understand that while some vaccines may be less effective at stopping variants giving people mild to moderate illness they are still highly effective at stopping any severe illness or hospitalisation.

The current narrative seems to be an eternal plan for lockdowns and MHQ's - but surely there must be some actual end game aim here? Like when X% of the population have been vaccinated or similar?

Not really travel related but from the point of view of variants the "Indian" one has caught the scientists off-guard because it is a different change to the spike protein, ie it has mutated in a way that wasn't expected... So far the concerning variants, Kent, Bristol, South Africa, California, New York and Brazil all had the same change in the spike protein (to different degrees) and as a result we were fairly sure that this is how the virus would mutate as well into the future

With regards to the vaccines you are correct they have all shown to give some protection to every variant discovered so far, in fact, with the exception of the new Indian variant, they have all shown to give over 50% efficacy against serious disease with I think Astrazeneca and the South African variant giving the worst efficacy of around 52%... Which is brilliant - remember the flu vaccine usually has about 35-40% efficacy.

Sorry if my scienc-ey explanation isn't coming across very well

As for the end game - the target is the end of Lockdown in a way that our health systems will not be overwhelmed, foreign holidays might have to wait until next year for that though unless the sunny countries and our own govt get their act together

knockoutned

Can anyone tell me if if non-vaccinated children (under 5) of vaccinated parents need to mandatory quarantine if traveling from a listed Company. Only thing I can see is newborns are exempted.

faceman

Red Silurian wrote: »

Not really travel related but from the point of view of variants the "Indian" one has caught the scientists off-guard because it is a different change to the spike protein, ie it has mutated in a way that wasn't expected... So far the concerning variants, Kent, Bristol, South Africa, California, New York and Brazil all had the same change in the spike protein (to different degrees) and as a result we were fairly sure that this is how the virus would mutate as well into the future

With regards to the vaccines you are correct they have all shown to give some protection to every variant discovered so far, in fact, with the exception of the new Indian variant, they have all shown to give over 50% efficacy against serious disease with I think Astrazeneca and the South African variant giving the worst efficacy of around 52%... Which is brilliant - remember the flu vaccine usually has about 35-40% efficacy.

Sorry if my scienc-ey explanation isn't coming across very well

The India strain hasn’t caught anyone off guard. What an absurd statement to make. It’s treated like any emerging strain. And it’s not considered of concern at present

Also...
https://www.newstalk.com/news/irish-people-have-become-paralysed-by-variant-concerns-fanning-1182450

wrote:

As for the end game - the target is the end of Lockdown in a way that our health systems will not be overwhelmed, foreign holidays might have to wait until next year for that though unless the sunny countries and our own govt get their act together

Our health system was not under strain in 2020 and was stretched, at best, for a limited period in 2021 at levels comparable to previous winters. It’s hasn’t been overwhelmed for quite sometime.

It is overwhelmed for waiting times for cancer screenings though but there doesn’t seem to be any urgency around that.

If travel has to wait, why doesn’t any social activity domestically so?

faceman

knockoutned wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if if non-vaccinated children (under 5) of vaccinated parents need to mandatory quarantine if traveling from a listed Company. Only thing I can see is newborns are exempted.

6 and under are exempt

knockoutned

faceman wrote: »

6 and under are exempt

Sorry, I meant Mandatory Hotel Quarantine.

Red Silurian

knockoutned wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if if non-vaccinated children (under 5) of vaccinated parents need to mandatory quarantine if traveling from a listed Company. Only thing I can see is newborns are exempted.

As far as I can make out, yes unless the child is under 6! EDIT: You should be fine with a 5 year old

faceman wrote: »

The India strain hasn’t caught anyone off guard. What an absurd statement to make. It’s treated like any emerging strain. And it’s not considered of concern at present

It's 'under investigation' at the moment yes, that's not to say it shouldn't concern us, but it has caught the scientists off guard as they were expecting the next variant to be similar in mutation to the known variants. To put in laymans terms if the virus is a banana last than year all we had were yellow ones but Britain, SA, Brazil, California and New York discovered green ones with slightly different shades across the countries, leading us to believe the next one would be a shade of green also. India have discovered a pink one, so that's turning heads in the scientific community

faceman wrote: »

Our health system was not under strain in 2020 and was stretched, at best, for a limited period in 2021 at levels comparable to previous winters. It’s hasn’t been overwhelmed for quite sometime.

It is overwhelmed for waiting times for cancer screenings though but there doesn’t seem to be any urgency around that.

In 2020 we peaked at about 1200 hospital beds taken with about 120 in ICU
In 2021 we peaked at about 2500 in hospital with 250 in ICU - we only have about 300 ICU beds in the country so to say we weren't overwhelmed is bending the truth a little bit

faceman wrote: »

If travel has to wait, why doesn’t any social activity domestically so?

2 reasons... International travel brings in less tax money and more risk of cases and variants than social activity domestically does

munchkin_utd

Red Silurian wrote: »

2 reasons... International travel brings in less tax money and more risk of cases and variants than social activity domestically does

christmas in Belmullet wasnt yanks off the plane, it was Mayo men jumping through the windows of pubs with pints

similarily, the GAA related instances over the autumn were down to lads going on the lash for days on end, with the virus supposely coming via students landing back from the first weeks of term in the big smoke (and that through house parties), not from lads straight off a plane

I know its a hard thing to grasp, that the virus doesnt require a 2+ hour plane journey as a catalyst to human transmission, but that does seem to be the case

Irish people in ireland are not exempt from tranmitting the virus to other irish people in ireland but the obscession with travel has many people believing the opposite

Havannah.

Quick question,

Anyone care to say, what are the chances of being quarantined returning from work in Spain at the end of summer ?

Thanks

Red Silurian

munchkin_utd wrote: »

christmas in Belmullet wasnt yanks off the plane, it was Mayo men jumping through the windows of pubs with pints

similarily, the GAA related instances over the autumn were down to lads going on the lash for days on end, with the virus supposely coming via students landing back from the first weeks of term in the big smoke (and that through house parties), not from lads straight off a plane

I know its a hard thing to grasp, that the virus doesnt require a 2+ hour plane journey as a catalyst to human transmission, but that does seem to be the case

Irish people in ireland are not exempt from tranmitting the virus to other irish people in ireland but the obscession with travel has many people believing the opposite

Oh so you're arguing the virus didn't come here through travel? How did it get here then? Specifically the British and Indian variants....

Wake up and smell the coffee FFS, every case here can be traced back interationally

Red Silurian

Havannah. wrote: »

Quick question,

Anyone care to say, what are the chances of being quarantined returning from work in Spain at the end of summer ?

Thanks

Nobody knows - that's the issue

In 4 weeks time we could have an explosion of cases in that neck of the woods through a new Spanish or Portuguese variant

Havannah.

Red Silurian wrote: »

Nobody knows - that's the issue

In 4 weeks time we could have an explosion of cases in that neck of the woods through a new Spanish or Portuguese variant

What's the story with Simon Harris saying the legislation expires at the end of summer ?

knockoutned

Red Silurian wrote: »

As far as I can make out, yes unless the child is under 6! EDIT: You should be fine with a 5 year old


Thanks, I eventually found the answer on the consulate's website.
"Unvaccinated dependants (including minors) travelling with a fully vaccinated person who is exempt from MHQ are also exempt from mandatory hotel quarantine and can quarantine at home/at the address given on the Passenger Locator Form"

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-consulate/newyork/

timmyntc

Red Silurian wrote: »

Oh so you're arguing the virus didn't come here through travel? How did it get here then? Specifically the British and Indian variants....

Wake up and smell the coffee FFS, every case here can be traced back interationally

Do you genuinely believe that we can keep all the variants out by quarantining travellers from a select number of countries?

The only way it could possibly work is to quarantine ALL incoming travel, because eventually the variants!! will either fade into obscurity or become the dominant, and the dominant strains will spread everywhere as we saw with UK variant.

Its been made very clear time and time again that zero-covid/borders shut approach is unworkable here and would be economic suicide. So do you stand by this piecemeal approach we have now? Do you think it will make any meaningful difference?

Red Silurian

Havannah. wrote: »

What's the story with Simon Harris saying the legislation expires at the end of summer ?

The legislation has a sunset clause that requires it to be renewed or it will automatically lapse in June (open to correction on the exact date)

Havannah.

timmyntc wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe that we can keep all the variants out by quarantining travellers from a select number of countries?

The only way it could possibly work is to quarantine ALL incoming travel, because eventually the variants!! will either fade into obscurity or become the dominant, and the dominant strains will spread everywhere as we saw with UK variant.

Its been made very clear time and time again that zero-covid/borders shut approach is unworkable here and would be economic suicide. So do you stand by this piecemeal approach we have now? Do you think it will make any meaningful difference?

Hmm, I assumed the idea is that you quarantine new vaccine busting variants

That allows time to vaccinate anew before the health service gets overwhelmed

And so on

Red Silurian

timmyntc wrote: »

Red Silurian wrote: »

Oh so you're arguing the virus didn't come here through travel? How did it get here then? Specifically the British and Indian variants....

Wake up and smell the coffee FFS, every case here can be traced back interationally

Do you genuinely believe that we can keep all the variants out by quarantining travellers from a select number of countries?

The only way it could possibly work is to quarantine ALL incoming travel, because eventually the variants!! will either fade into obscurity or become the dominant, and the dominant strains will spread everywhere as we saw with UK variant.

Its been made very clear time and time again that zero-covid/borders shut approach is unworkable here and would be economic suicide. So do you stand by this piecemeal approach we have now? Do you think it will make any meaningful difference?

I asked first :D:D