Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

Beechwoodspark

JustAThought wrote: »

That is absolutely happening in Dublin and has been happening since the ban was lifted - schools can’t rent rooms to them for classes but they are being put into families for ‘total immersion learning’ and you see then sitting in clumps of 30 or 60 in the usual places - beaches and fairways and greens. The schools are
emailing and writing to families privately saying they will prioritise giving them students in the future only if they support
them now. Its been going on in Dublin for months and is an absolute joke.

This is a bad joke. It’s making a mickey mockery of the restrictions and the efforts ppl are putting in. Is there anyway of alerting the authorities of this

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

At least if you're travelling sensibly within your own country the government have a better chance of tracking and tracing cases locally and controlling out outbreaks locally.
Travelling unnecessarily and potentially importing the virus from other countries when one could at least holiday domestically for one year doesn't seem like sensible or considerate behaviour right now.
It is possible to greatly reduce the spread of the virus if we're willing to change our behaviour and be sensible before the winter hits.

I've bad news for you my friend, Covid's been here for the past 6 months, you can't import what's already here.. especially when travel abroad is only said to contribute around 2 or 3% to the cases in Ireland...
Any movement outside means you're potentially carrying the virus around to infect those who work in hotels or shops in little villages in Kerry or Donegal who never had a case of Covid before..

caveat emptor

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I've bad news for you my friend, Covid's been here for the past 6 months, you can't import what's already here.. especially when travel abroad is only said to contribute around 2 or 3% to the cases in Ireland...
Any movement outside means you're potentially carrying the virus around to infect those who work in hotels or shops in little villages in Kerry or Donegal who never had a case of Covid before..

It's a question of probability. You are far more likely to bump into someone positive in Spain or the US than here.

Del Griffith

saabsaab wrote: »

Might be an idea to issue necessary travellers with a badge or wearable ID to show they have quarantined and are safe?

A tattoo on the forehead maybe?

Del Griffith

Strumms wrote: »

If something happened where the whole population got infected, or close 6.5 % of the nations population is 318,760 people dying... doesn’t bear thinking about... non restrictions folks should think, hard.

Wtf, where did you pull a 6.5% mortality rate from?

0.28% and that's only known cases, probably half that or less in reality

ShineOn7

Del Griffith wrote: »

Wtf, where did you pull a 6.5% mortality rate from?

0.28% and that's only known cases, probably half that or less in reality

I think Strumms was quoting the IFR for Ireland

Del Griffith

ShineOn7 wrote: »

I think Strumms was quoting the IFR for Ireland

I think that would have to be CFR, which is pretty meaningless really when we have no idea of the number of infected.

theological

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I've bad news for you my friend, Covid's been here for the past 6 months, you can't import what's already here.. especially when travel abroad is only said to contribute around 2 or 3% to the cases in Ireland...
Any movement outside means you're potentially carrying the virus around to infect those who work in hotels or shops in little villages in Kerry or Donegal who never had a case of Covid before..

Bad logic. Because the virus is here we shouldn't do more to stop more of it being imported...

No we should do more not to import it while managing our own outbreaks. Which by the by is easier to do without more people flying it in from elsewhere unnecessarily.

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

This is a bad joke. It’s making a mickey mockery of the restrictions and the efforts ppl are putting in. Is there anyway of alerting the authorities of this

This has to be a joke post. Must be.

(Fyi, Spanish students are not arriving in large numbers anymore than flights in May were allegedly full of yanks)

IrishHomer

I know a family close to me were in Texas 12 days ago they reside in New York, they flew into Dublin yesterday and breezed through nobody saw them with any information on self isolating or anything.

3xh

IrishHomer wrote: »

I know a family close to me were in Texas 12 days ago they reside in New York, they flew into Dublin yesterday and breezed through nobody saw them with any information on self isolating or anything.

For God’s sake, what information do you think they need? The importance of washing your hands, keeping 2 metres from others, sneezing into your elbow/tissue, stay home, phone a doctor/clinic if unwell, etc etc etc? The US CDC recommendations are a mirror of the ECDC.

Having Mary from the HSE standing at Customs handing out info sheets will do absolutely nothing at this point. The info is everywhere.

And by the way, the ‘self-isolating’ or restricting your movements as they like to call it now is still a recommendation like it’s always been. It was never mandatory unlike the PHPLF that they would have completed when they came through passport control.

IrishHomer

3xh wrote: »

For God’s sake, what information do you think they need? The importance of washing your hands, keeping 2 metres from others, sneezing into your elbow/tissue, stay home, phone a doctor/clinic if unwell, etc etc etc? The US CDC recommendations are a mirror of the ECDC.

Having Mary from the HSE standing at Customs handing out info sheets will do absolutely nothing at this point. The info is everywhere.

And by the way, the ‘self-isolating’ or restricting your movements as they like to call it now is still a recommendation like it’s always been. It was never mandatory unlike the PHPLF that they would have completed when they came through passport control.

Well I was told by a New Yorker that if you move from state to state you must self isolate for 14 days and if your caught not doing it you can face prison!

3xh

IrishHomer wrote: »

Well I was told by a New Yorker that if you move from state to state you must self isolate for 14 days and if your caught not doing it you can face prison!

Yeah, in America! (And that’s assuming if that’s even true)

It’s got nothing to do with Americans flying into Ireland.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

Bad logic. Because the virus is here we shouldn't do more to stop more of it being imported...
No we should do more not to import it while managing our own outbreaks. Which by the by is easier to do without more people flying it in from elsewhere unnecessarily.

I'd agree that stopping travel would be a great idea if we had Zero cases for something like 3 months and internally all businesses were fully up and running and the economy was humming along just fine.

But to stop travel just to try prevent the very small risk of bringing in more cases just doesn't make any sense when Travel now in almost September contributes almost nothing to Covid in Ireland.. People with symptoms don't fly, other airports do temperature checks for passengers before departure.. Risks extremely low.

So basically stopping travel into the country would create more problems than it solves..

theological

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I'd agree that stopping travel would be a great idea if we had Zero cases for something like 3 months and internally all businesses were fully up and running and the economy was humming along just fine.

But to stop travel just to try prevent the very small risk of bringing in more cases just doesn't make any sense when Travel now in almost September contributes almost nothing to Covid in Ireland.. People with symptoms don't fly, other airports do temperature checks for passengers before departure.. Risks extremely low.

So basically stopping travel into the country would create more problems than it solves..

It isn't a very small risk. That's the bit of your argument I don't accept. The virus was initially brought in with travellers returning from other countries.

The 3% figure that you mention probably accounts for cases that were directly caught while travelling.

Edit: I'm not convinced this figure is correct from googling. Some results suggest it is as high as 20% of new cases related to travel.

It doesn't account for the people who may be infected from this traveller or even the people who are infected from these contacts further down the chain. It depends on how you think "related to travel" should be measured.

Your argument is poor. Why would restricting travel be "damaging"? Most people are being asked to quarantine anyway at the moment.

Edit: I'm not arguing that most of these infections are caught in airports. They are more likely down to going out and about in countries with a higher rate of infection. It is an unnecessary risk that people shouldn't be taking at the moment in my opinion.

PhilOssophy

theological is dead right.
If I go out to the shop and some American is standing in the queue in front of me and I get Covid from him, my case will be put down to community transmission when in reality it is 100% due to travel.
I really don't see how people find this so difficult to understand.
There are lies, damn lies and statistics. And the statistics are 100% wrong in this case!

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

It isn't a very small risk. That's the bit of your argument I don't accept. The virus was initially brought in with travellers returning from other countries. The 3% figure that you mention probably accounts for cases that were directly caught while travelling.
Edit: I'm not convinced this figure is correct from googling. Some results suggest it is as high as 20% of new cases related to travel.
It doesn't account for the people who may be infected from this traveller or even the people who are infected from these contacts further down the chain. It depends on how you think "related to travel" should be measured.
Your argument is poor. Why would restricting travel be "damaging"? Most people are being asked to quarantine anyway at the moment.
Edit: I'm not arguing that most of these infections are caught in airports. They are more likely down to going out and about in countries with a higher rate of infection. It is an unnecessary risk that people shouldn't be taking at the moment in my opinion.

What do you want then, you're arguing a lot that travel is the cause of all these new cases even though the evidence to back up these claims is scarce... and there's many other things we could be doing to prevent infections.. Closing the airport isn't the answer!
We already have a blanket 14 day isolation request in place which is basically a message to all travellers that Ireland is closed... take apart that point if you will but it's a fact.

If you can't understand why stopping travel to a small island on the west side of Europe isn't socially and economically destructive then I just don't have the energy to explain it..

We're 6 months or so into this, people know how to behave, there's exceptions to everything, however I doubt anyone is going abroad to get infected!

ShineOn7

Bali to not re-open to tourists till at least 2021

https://www.thejakartapost.com/travel/2020/08/24/bali-postpones-plans-to-welcome-international-travelers-in-september.html

Tourism contributes to a third of Bali's GDP. That’s an insane % (I know technically they're not a country, but it's a province with a population of over 4 million)

So I thought that they’d open back up to a safe Green List of countries at least, but they're putting the safety of their people and health system first

Meanwhile here in "shure it'll be graaaand" land: there's still no Red List!

And I expect, with the schools re-opening, the "government" will continue to ignore the clown shows that are our airports

theological

Tenzor07 wrote: »

What do you want then, you're arguing a lot that travel is the cause of all these new cases even though the evidence to back up these claims is scarce... and there's many other things we could be doing to prevent infections.. Closing the airport isn't the answer!
We already have a blanket 14 day isolation request in place which is basically a message to all travellers that Ireland is closed... take apart that point if you will but it's a fact.

If you can't understand why stopping travel to a small island on the west side of Europe isn't socially and economically destructive then I just don't have the energy to explain it..

We're 6 months or so into this, people know how to behave, there's exceptions to everything, however I doubt anyone is going abroad to get infected!

I dispute your 3% figure. At the end of July 20% of new coronavirus cases in Ireland were related to travel.

I can find other similar links on a cursory Google. The virus was introduced by travel so the claim that travel isn't significant seems to be false.

I'm suggesting that non-essential travel should be restricted until next spring at the earliest. People should be able to holiday domestically this year.

faceman

theological wrote: »

It is entirely impossible to determine if someone has been in a certain place, or rather it would require a huge administrative effort to do so. It would require a bottleneck at the border to require people to evidence that they had been in region A of a country rather than region B.

They do it in some other European countries. Why does Ireland constantly use things like this as an excuse? It was the same with county lockdowns, they said more local wasn't feasible. How come other European countries make it work?

Edit: This is working on the assumption that nobody transferred through more at-

wrote:

I'm leaning towards the conclusion that travel should be limited to non-essential travel until we are on the other side of this or at least until next spring when we've been through the winter. For me personally, that means I'm going to holiday in England in September and I've avoided returning home in the summer. My family from Ireland also didn't attend my wedding earlier in the summer.

Everyone has made significant sacrifices so far. I don't see why that should be potentially undone by introducing more cases into the country through travel.

Again this is not based on the research and is introducing a measure to penalise people and businesses for the sake of an incorrect presumption.

No one is doubting the sacrifices, we all did it. The virus is going to be with us for at least 3 years, it's not going away no matter how long we lock down for. We need to be realistic with an end game.

theological wrote: »

I dispute your 3% figure. At the end of July 20% of new coronavirus cases in Ireland were related to travel.

I can find other similar links on a cursory Google. The virus was introduced by travel so the claim that travel isn't significant seems to be false.

I'm suggesting that non-essential travel should be restricted until next spring at the earliest. People should be able to holiday domestically this year.

Why Spring? Why not until there is a vaccine? Whats so special about spring? You just pulled that date out of the air without any science or research to back it up.

Not having a go but pointing out that without following the research that has been done since March across the world there is a risk of poor decision making to the detriment of everyone.

I feel for families separated, partners separated, people's work impacted, jobs lost and about to be lost all on the back of misplaced fear over travel.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

I dispute your 3% figure. At the end of July 20% of new coronavirus cases in Ireland were related to travel.
I can find other similar links on a cursory Google. The virus was introduced by travel so the claim that travel isn't significant seems to be false.
I'm suggesting that non-essential travel should be restricted until next spring at the earliest. People should be able to holiday domestically this year.

Non-essential travel isn't permitted and the majority of Irish people are sticking to this...
The message is "Ireland is closed for Business"

Keeping that in place for a tiny fraction of cases is ludicrous!


https://twitter.com/ronan_glynn/status/1296141562460737539

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/nphet-warns-government-that-full-lockdown-may-be-required-1014553.html

PhilOssophy

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If you can't understand why stopping travel to a small island on the west side of Europe isn't socially and economically destructive then I just don't have the energy to explain it..

I would argue that the destruction caused by the inability of us to go about our normal lives is far greater than stopping travel to a small island, and if you can't understand that I don't have the energy to explain it!

theological

faceman wrote: »

They do it in some other European countries. Why does Ireland constantly use things like this as an excuse? It was the same with county lockdowns, they said more local wasn't feasible. How come other European countries make it work?

How do you propose that passengers evidence their travel? How long do you think this is likely to take at border control? The simpler approach is simply, just don't travel there until this is over.

Again, if people travel through more infected areas on the way there that argument doesn't hold any longer.

faceman wrote: »

Again this is not based on the research and is introducing a measure to penalise people and businesses for the sake of an incorrect presumption.

What "research" do you need? If you are transiting through an area where there is a high level of the virus, then it is entirely possible that you could catch it.

faceman wrote: »

No one is doubting the sacrifices, we all did it. The virus is going to be with us for at least 3 years, it's not going away no matter how long we lock down for. We need to be realistic with an end game.

Realistic could mean forgoing non-essential travel until it is gone. Why isn't this realistic?

faceman wrote: »

Why Spring? Why not until there is a vaccine? Whats so special about spring? You just pulled that date out of the air without any science or research to back it up.

Spring, because it would see us through the winter where the situation with coronavirus is likely to be much worse. Our behaviour now will dictate how well the autumn or winter will go. If the situation with the virus is different in the spring then that could be a realistic option. If it isn't I think you're right, it should continue until it is safe again.

faceman wrote: »

I feel for families separated, partners separated, people's work impacted, jobs lost and about to be lost all on the back of misplaced fear over travel.

We've all made costly decisions (myself included) but if continued sacrifice means that this virus has less opportunity to spread, then that is the right thing to do.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Non-essential travel isn't permitted and the majority of Irish people are sticking to this...
The message is "Ireland is closed for Business"

Keeping that in place for a tiny fraction of cases is ludicrous!


https://twitter.com/ronan_glynn/status/1296141562460737539

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/nphet-warns-government-that-full-lockdown-may-be-required-1014553.html

Again, it depends on how you measure travel related.

Is travel related I was in X country and returned with the virus? Or is travel related, I met a friend who was in X country, or I caught the virus from a work colleague that was in X country?

Again, disputing this point when the virus is in Ireland because of travel seems a bit absurd.

Also "closed for business" in what sense? I think saying that tourism should be limited to domestic in order not to have to sacrifice the economy again when the tourist season is over is sensible. A lot of other work can continue remotely.

Edit: non essential travel is permitted from Ireland. It just isn't encouraged. There should be specified reasons as to why travel would be essential also.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

Again, it depends on how you measure travel related.Is travel related I was in X country and returned with the virus? Or is travel related, I met a friend who was in X country, or I caught the virus from a work colleague that was in X country? Again, disputing this point when the virus is in Ireland because of travel seems a bit absurd.
Also "closed for business" in what sense? I think saying that tourism should be limited to domestic in order not to have to sacrifice the economy again when the tourist season is over is sensible. A lot of other work can continue remotely.

If you want to pull apart the figures from what Dr. Glynn has posted I suggest contacting the HSE...other than that I suggest you accept the official statistics from the head of the HSE...

Again, start doing your research as to why a small Island economy which relies on overseas investments and an international workforce...

Going around in circles with you now so suggest you do more research..

Tenzor07

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I would argue that the destruction caused by the inability of us to go about our normal lives is far greater than stopping travel to a small island, and if you can't understand that I don't have the energy to explain it!

If you can't explain your points then I appears you don't fully understand them yourself.
Anyways, you seem to have an agenda here so I won't be replying again.

theological

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If you want to pull apart the figures from what Dr. Glynn has posted I suggest contacting the HSE...other than that I suggest you accept the official statistics from the head of the HSE...

Again, start doing your research as to why a small Island economy which relies on overseas investments and an international workforce...

Going around in circles with you now so suggest you do more research..

I would like to find out what "travel related" means in this context? If it just means direct cases of people returning that isn't really meaningful. I won't quibble further on this because we all know the pandemic is here because of travel. That's enough reason for my position.

I work for a large multinational company. Nobody has needed to travel to keep working because the remote working infrastructure was ready to go. They are actively discouraging us from returning to our office in central London until there is a vaccine available. They told us to be at home before several weeks before the government did.

If anything multinational businesses knew that they needed to act early.

PhilOssophy

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If you can't explain your points then I appears you don't fully understand them yourself.
Anyways, you seem to have an agenda here so I won't be replying again.

I only replied that way because that was the way you replied to the previous poster, so who doesn't understand what now?

PhilOssophy

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If you want to pull apart the figures from what Dr. Glynn has posted I suggest contacting the HSE...other than that I suggest you accept the official statistics from the head of the HSE...

Again, start doing your research as to why a small Island economy which relies on overseas investments and an international workforce...

Going around in circles with you now so suggest you do more research..

Why should we accept the official statistics from the head of the HSE if they are as flawed as saying we have a small fraction of travel related cases but I could go out and get it off somebody who has landed from the US and it is wrongly classifed as "community transmission" instead of "travel related" which is what it really is?

Also you talk about your research about overseas investments, the lifeblood of every community in this country is local people being able to spend money, go to shops, go to the pub, restaurants, etc. It is money going around in circles in these towns, i.e. the butcher buying dinner or a few pints. That tap is dry at the moment but we think it is OK for people to land at the airport from Covid hotspots as though stopping them for a few months is going to be more disastrous for our economy than what these businesses rely on for years and years?

Why don't you tell me with your "research" and facts why either of the above is wrong?

3xh

theological wrote: »

I would like to find out what "travel related" means in this context? If it just means direct cases of people returning that isn't really meaningful. I won't quibble further on this because we all know the pandemic is here because of travel. That's enough reason for my position.

I work for a large multinational company. Nobody has needed to travel to keep working because the remote working infrastructure was ready to go. They are actively discouraging us from returning to our office in central London until there is a vaccine available. They told us to be at home before several weeks before the government did.

If anything multinational businesses knew that they needed to act early.

Here is the definition of ‘travel related’ from gov.ie>>>

Basically, if you have been abroad and test positive, you’re a ‘travel’ case. Not exactly 100% accurate.

joseywhales

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I doubt visiting family is essential at the moment.....and if you are coming here, do us all a favour and self-isolate for 14 days first.

The quarantine is ending tomorrow for me, and what a two weeks it has been! I was thinking about the bold Phil and how he just travelled to every corner of ireland upon arrival from Brussels. No issues anyway, flying back on Friday after my one day of freedom. Dredding the journey, I am sure the americans will give me endless hassle at the border. A free covid test would be nice, save me the bother of arranging one.