Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

theological

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Case rate near me in Blanchardstown/Mulhuddart is 196/100k.... much safer to travel abroad than visit the shops and other crowded areas there...

This is precisely the reason why you shouldn't travel somewhere else. You could import the virus to other countries. It is a two sided coin.

Tenzor07

fly_agaric wrote: »

Not going abroad for a holiday until this is over isn't "staying home and hiding under your bed until the vaccine comes".

Who said "holiday"... Travel abroad for a funeral, a medic/nurse travelling for work, returning home for family issues...etc. list goes on..can't stay at home until a vaccine comes.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

This is precisely the reason why you shouldn't travel somewhere else. You could import the virus to other countries. It is a two sided coin.

Going to another country, getting a test upon or previous to arrival, testing negative and getting on with your travel abroad...so yes you can and should travel for many reasons...

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Going to another country, getting a test upon or previous to arrival, testing negative and getting on with your travel abroad...so yes you can and should travel for many reasons...

A negative test doesn't mean you don't have covid. Just that it hasn't shown up, yet!

There will be some essential reasons to travel but there are many reasons not to otherwise.

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

A negative test doesn't mean you don't have covid. Just that it hasn't shown up, yet!
There will be some essential reasons to travel but there are many reasons not to otherwise.

A negative test means you haven't got it and aren't spreading it... so your argument not to travel abroad at this stage in the pandemic is nonsense.... Travel isn't responsible for the surge of cases... You're going to come back and say blah blah but travel shouldn't happen.... when contract tracing reports in Northern and Southern travel say it's not a major driver of infection, so go ahead and spread your hyperbole...

theological

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Going to another country, getting a test upon or previous to arrival, testing negative and getting on with your travel abroad...so yes you can and should travel for many reasons...

A test on arrival wouldn't prove anything if it is in the incubation period you can still test negative until you develop symptoms later. Hence why Iceland scrapped this and required quarantine.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

A test on arrival wouldn't prove anything if it is in the incubation period you can still test negative until you develop symptoms later. Hence why Iceland scrapped this and required quarantine.

People travel, air cabin crews meet thousands of people per week, infections aren't rampant in the profession, and travel is proven by contact trace reports not to be the major driver of infections in the island of Ireland... so you'll have to concentrate your energies on what is, i.e. unregulated house parties..

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

A negative test means you haven't got it and aren't spreading it... so your argument not to travel abroad at this stage in the pandemic is nonsense.... Travel isn't responsible for the surge of cases... You're going to come back and say blah blah but travel shouldn't happen.... when contract tracing reports in Northern and Southern travel say it's not a major driver of infection, so go ahead and spread your hyperbole...

Above just not true! You could have it. Travel of course spreads it how did it come here in the first place?

normanoffside

saabsaab wrote: »

A negative test doesn't mean you don't have covid. Just that it hasn't shown up, yet!

There will be some essential reasons to travel but there are many reasons not to otherwise.

Getting a negative PCR test within 3 days before travelling significantly decreases the risk of bringing Covid into a country.
If you could then get a Rapid test (even if less accurate they are supposed to be 97% accurate) on arrival there'd be no more risk of bringing Covid back from your holidays than there is of bringing it back from the supermarket.

People want to travel and people will be happy to pay testing and abide by rules to make it safer once they are brought in.

Banning travel by 'tut tutting' at people rather introducing rules for safe travel is idiotic and helps no one.

saabsaab

normanoffside wrote: »

Getting a negative PCR test within 3 days before travelling significantly decreases the risk of bringing Covid into a country.
If you could then get a Rapid test (even if less accurate they are supposed to be 97% accurate) on arrival there'd be more risk of bringing Covid back from your holidays than there is of bringing it back from the supermarket.

People want to travel and people will be happy to pay testing and abide by rules to make it safer once they are brought in.

Banning travel by 'tut tutting' at people rather introducing rules for safe travel is idiotic and helps no one.

Wait for the bloody vaccine it's not much to ask and will save lives maybe your own!

johnire

Not taking sides here but that poster does have a valid point that everyone in their responses seem to be conveniently ignoring..... travel does spread the virus. Of course it does..... it originated in China and is now essentially in every country in the world. If travel doesn’t spread it then how can that be? I know I’m over simplifying but I’m just making the point that’s it’s not fair to dismiss someone’s point of view-a factual one - just because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

Above just not true! You could have it. Travel of course spreads it how did it come here in the first place?

We all know that the water overflowed out of China late 2019 and successive countries failed to build an effective dam to stop the flow all over the world... But my friend the toothpaste is out of the tube now, and trying to put it back in with complete travel bans until there's a vaccine is a viewpoint that not even the WHO support...
The Virus is here despite the most extensive systems of travel bans in human history and is proven not to be the driver of it now...

So what else you got?

Tenzor07

johnire wrote: »

Not taking sides here but that poster does have a valid point that everyone in their responses seem to be conveniently ignoring..... travel does spread the virus. Of course it does..... it originated in China and is now essentially in every country in the world. If travel doesn’t spread it then how can that be? I know I’m over simplifying but I’m just making the point that’s it’s not fair to dismiss someone’s point of view-a factual one - just because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

See point above, no one dismissed anything, i'm saying that travel is not the main driver of spikes in infections so therefore look to the ways that are spreading the increase in cases instead.
These two posters want a full travel ban when it won't do anything to stop the spikes we are seeing with infections in Ireland.

normanoffside

johnire wrote: »

Not taking sides here but that poster does have a valid point that everyone in their responses seem to be conveniently ignoring..... travel does spread the virus. Of course it does..... it originated in China and is now essentially in every country in the world. If travel doesn’t spread it then how can that be? I know I’m over simplifying but I’m just making the point that’s it’s not fair to dismiss someone’s point of view-a factual one - just because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

We are not going for a zero covid strategy any more (were we ever?) so with that in mind sure a policy and mandatory rues on testing would be more effective than the 'advisory' on 'restricted movement'.

As it stands I can travel anywhere in the world and return without being legally required to do anything.
Surely bringing in mandatory testing before/after travel and providing facilities for tests (sell testing out to private companies if necessary) will eradicate 99.9% of the risk and will have the full buy in of the public who want to travel.

I know so many people who really want to travel for business or pleasure and would be happy to take and pay for tests to do so but are just not given that opportunity.

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

See point above, no one dismissed anything, i'm saying that travel is not the main driver of spikes in infections so therefore look to the ways that are spreading the increase in cases instead.
These two posters want a full travel ban when it won't do anything to stop the spikes we are seeing with infections in Ireland.

It is still a factor and would go some way at least to stopping the spread. How could it not.

normanoffside

saabsaab wrote: »

It is still a factor and would go some way at least to stopping the spread. How could it not.

There's more risk of bringing Covid back from Donegal or Derry than there is from bringing it back from Germany or Greece though.

If we allowed people to go and come back from Germany or Greece with testing at the airport to prove they are not infected then that's a hell of a lot safer than coming back from Donegal or Derry without a test.

johnire

It’s interesting to hear the views of people living abroad regarding travel and tourists-more specifically us Irish travelling abroad. I’ve spoken to friends of mine -two who live in different parts of Spain and one who lives in Germany and I can tell you from their point of view the Irish can stay put! They’re horrified at our Covid figures and their attitude is that they don’t want Irish tourists travelling potentially spreading the virus-their words not mine. Interesting too that two of them work in the hospitality trade and even though they’re crying out for tourists they don’t want them at any price- certainly not from Ireland it seems at the moment anyway!

saabsaab

johnire wrote: »

It’s interesting to hear the views of people living abroad regarding travel and tourists-more specifically us Irish travelling abroad. I’ve spoken to friends of mine -two who live in different parts of Spain and one who lives in Germany and I can tell you from their point of view the Irish can stay put! They’re horrified at our Covid figures and their attitude is that they don’t want Irish tourists travelling potentially spreading the virus-their words not mine. Interesting too that two of them work in the hospitality trade and even though they’re crying out for tourists they don’t want them at any price- certainly not from Ireland it seems at the moment anyway!

Of course they don't why would they, being sensible.

normanoffside

johnire wrote: »

It’s interesting to hear the views of people living abroad regarding travel and tourists-more specifically us Irish travelling abroad. I’ve spoken to friends of mine -two who live in different parts of Spain and one who lives in Germany and I can tell you from their point of view the Irish can stay put! They’re horrified at our Covid figures and their attitude is that they don’t want Irish tourists travelling potentially spreading the virus-their words not mine. Interesting too that two of them work in the hospitality trade and even though they’re crying out for tourists they don’t want them at any price- certainly not from Ireland it seems at the moment anyway!

But we always like to blame other countries for bringing it to us.

I still cant get over the fact that we don't allow (For example) Germans to come to Ireland with out 'restricting their movements' for 14 days when they have 30% of our cases per head of population!

Happydays2020

johnire wrote: »

Not taking sides here but that poster does have a valid point that everyone in their responses seem to be conveniently ignoring..... travel does spread the virus. Of course it does..... it originated in China and is now essentially in every country in the world. If travel doesn’t spread it then how can that be? I know I’m over simplifying but I’m just making the point that’s it’s not fair to dismiss someone’s point of view-a factual one - just because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

It is a valid point that the 90000 or so people in Ireland who have had Covid ultimately got it from travel.

Golfman64

Very interesting to see what will likely be the new intra-EU travel policy applied to all member states (as of today’s statistics), by Ryanair.

This common policy will open up a significant volume of travel and should be adopted by all EU states in mid October. This will represent a much needed boost for the aviation, travel and hospitality sectors under a common and more importantly, a safe set of agreed rules and regulations.

johnire

That still isn’t going to offer any real peace of mind though when booking a trip. Almost certainly you’re not going to book anywhere that’s not in the green zone. Even then who’s to say that when the time comes for you to go where your destination country is going to be. It could have moved to an orange or even red status. It’ll still be incredibly uncertain.

Golfman64 wrote: »

Very interesting to see what will likely be the new intra-EU travel policy from Mid-October, posted by Ryanair today.. Opens up a significant volume of travel and will be adopted by all EU states in mid October, once ratified This should represent a much needed boost for the aviation, travel and hospitality sectors under a common and more importantly, a safe set of agreed rules and regulations.

Golfman64

johnire wrote: »

That still isn’t going to offer any real peace of mind though when booking a trip. Almost certainly you’re not going to book anywhere that’s not in the green zone. Even then who’s to say that when the time comes for you to go where your destination country is going to be. It could have moved to an orange or even red status. It’ll still be incredibly uncertain.

Agreed, a key element will be how often the list is refreshed! I imagine guidance on this will also be provided on an EU wide level.

It has been suggested that the ‘restriction’ applied to those returning form or travelling to a ‘red’ country will be a Covid test as opposed to quarantine which would more manageable at short notice.

johnire

johnire wrote: »

That still isn’t going to offer any real peace of mind though when booking a trip. Almost certainly you’re not going to book anywhere that’s not in the green zone. Even then who’s to say that when the time comes for you to go where your destination country is going to be. It could have moved to an orange or even red status. It’ll still be incredibly uncertain.

If you’re travelling with a family, I agree would be a big risk. If you’re like me and my partner, travelling light, with a laptop, fully remote working and no commitments, then getting stuck somewhere or having to quarantine somewhere is not that big a deal

faceman

saabsaab wrote: »

Of course they don't why would they, being sensible.

With all due respect saabsaab, you’re perpetuating a very extreme view that is taking an a la carte use of news and articles

Travel accounts for less than 2% of cases period. Since June airlines have stricter hygiene controls with masks and social distancing in place.

There’s a graph of risk factors for catching the virus that the WHO produced that shows flying on a plane is less risky than going to a bar or restaurant.

There is very little social activities that come without risk and shutting down sectors of the economy is doing far more harm, mental health, medically and economically, then covid. That’s not pseudo science, that’s fact.

Other countries recognise the risks of travel and have opened their borders. Ireland has the strictest rules in Europe, and it hasn’t made any difference here as our cases are getting back to lockdown levels.

Science has shown us that the virus doesn’t like the outdoors, therefore Irish people visiting sunny locations where they will be predominantly outdoors carries less risk than staying in Ireland. No risk of house parties for the vast majority of people when on holiday either

My region in Spain, the Valencia region, has a similar population to Ireland. No doubt Spain is encountering the most severe second wave in Europe. However the Valencia region, population 5.1m, is performing better than Ireland with cases less than Ireland and have been for sometime.

Spain opened its borders the same time as most of Europe. International travel counted for very little case numbers. What drove case numbers across the country was house parties and family gatherings. Domestic travel spread the virus. Bars in cities, particularly nightclubs and karaoke bars were a problem in some areas. (Bizarrely Spain allowed nightclubs open if dancing wasn’t permitted. They eventually closed nightclubs)

The Valencia region had a predominantly pro active population. People were mostly disciplined. In Spain mask wearing is mandatory and social distancing enforced. Police check bars and restaurants regularly and shut them down. €100 on the spot fine for not wearing a mask.

I can’t walk in to the local supermarket with passing the security guard who not only checks I’m wearing a mask, he also checks I use the hand santiser by the door.

We do none of this in Ireland.

Links to the scientific risks of travel have been posted numerous times in this and other threads so I’m not reposting. Travel turned in to a non story. Even Leo and Covoney admitted that.

theological

Tenzor07 wrote: »

See point above, no one dismissed anything, i'm saying that travel is not the main driver of spikes in infections so therefore look to the ways that are spreading the increase in cases instead.
These two posters want a full travel ban when it won't do anything to stop the spikes we are seeing with infections in Ireland.

It's been explained several times why this isn't true.

1 person coming back from an infected country that then continues socialising with others and could pass it on. This can then mothball. Even though the original case of coronavirus originated from a foreign country the others will be counted as community spread even if the cause of their infection was ultimately from travel. This is why the logic is bad.

The reason for stopping travel is to give the virus less opportunities to spread until it is under control. The defeatist it'll never go away attitude is precisely the reason why it will never go away. If it is to go away it requires our consistent efforts.

faceman

theological wrote: »

It's been explained several times why this isn't true.

1 person coming back from an infected country that then continues socialising with others and could pass it on. This can then mothball. Even though the original case of coronavirus originated from a foreign country the others will be counted as community spread even if the cause of their infection was ultimately from travel. This is why the logic is bad.

The reason for stopping travel is to give the virus less opportunities to spread until it is under control. The defeatist it'll never go away attitude is precisely the reason why it will never go away. If it is to go away it requires our consistent efforts.

You do realise that if you wish to stop travel you must stop importing goods too? Travel is more than just airports, it’s also sea too. The virus doesn’t care if someone is going on holiday or is transporting goods.

So if you want to shut airports you must stop anyone not resident on the island of Ireland from entering regardless of reason. Otherwise you’ll end up like New Zealand or Australia.

Oh and you’ll also need to talk the Nordies in to either doing the same there with U.K. or closing the border with the republic

Best of luck with this strategy

3xh

theological wrote: »

It's been explained several times why this isn't true.

1 person coming back from an infected country that then continues socialising with others and could pass it on. This can then mothball. Even though the original case of coronavirus originated from a foreign country the others will be counted as community spread even if the cause of their infection was ultimately from travel. This is why the logic is bad.

The reason for stopping travel is to give the virus less opportunities to spread until it is under control. The defeatist it'll never go away attitude is precisely the reason why it will never go away. If it is to go away it requires our consistent efforts.

The unfortunate Covid case in Tullamore recently only came to light because of the death that was involved itself. It was from the death, the Covid test was done. From that positive result, those who were to be found positive were found as such.

Yes, maybe zero of those in that golf group had never been abroad in years and so one of them picked it up through community transmission. So therefore, using your argument, their particular chain was started through travel by one of them being in contact with someone who was abroad.

But who mainly goes abroad? Haulage drivers, air crew, journalists, people who have split families abroad, a few fed up people who said I’m going anyway to a place with lower cases per 100,000 than Ireland, etc. You want food and goods shortages by stopping all shipping and air freight? You want to stop a citizen from flying abroad to see their estranged family? Give over. You’re looking at the ‘travel’ issue too blinkered.

It would take months of hermetically sealing Ireland off to get zero cases. And then what? We’re only as good as the worst affected country.
And that says nothing about the impossible to square circle that is the Northern Irish border and the right of those resident there to travel to Great Britain.

Travel is not the fight here.

Jinglejangle69

faceman wrote: »

With all due respect saabsaab, you’re perpetuating a very extreme view that is taking an a la carte use of news and articles

Travel accounts for less than 2% of cases period. Since June airlines have stricter hygiene controls with masks and social distancing in place.

There’s a graph of risk factors for catching the virus that the WHO produced that shows flying on a plane is less risky than going to a bar or restaurant.

There is very little social activities that come without risk and shutting down sectors of the economy is doing far more harm, mental health, medically and economically, then covid. That’s not pseudo science, that’s fact.

Other countries recognise the risks of travel and have opened their borders. Ireland has the strictest rules in Europe, and it hasn’t made any difference here as our cases are getting back to lockdown levels.

Science has shown us that the virus doesn’t like the outdoors, therefore Irish people visiting sunny locations where they will be predominantly outdoors carries less risk than staying in Ireland. No risk of house parties for the vast majority of people when on holiday either

My region in Spain, the Valencia region, has a similar population to Ireland. No doubt Spain is encountering the most severe second wave in Europe. However the Valencia region, population 5.1m, is performing better than Ireland with cases less than Ireland and have been for sometime.

Spain opened its borders the same time as most of Europe. International travel counted for very little case numbers. What drove case numbers across the country was house parties and family gatherings. Domestic travel spread the virus. Bars in cities, particularly nightclubs and karaoke bars were a problem in some areas. (Bizarrely Spain allowed nightclubs open if dancing wasn’t permitted. They eventually closed nightclubs)

The Valencia region had a predominantly pro active population. People were mostly disciplined. In Spain mask wearing is mandatory and social distancing enforced. Police check bars and restaurants regularly and shut them down. €100 on the spot fine for not wearing a mask.

I can’t walk in to the local supermarket with passing the security guard who not only checks I’m wearing a mask, he also checks I use the hand santiser by the door.

We do none of this in Ireland.

Links to the scientific risks of travel have been posted numerous times in this and other threads so I’m not reposting. Travel turned in to a non story. Even Leo and Covoney admitted that.

Community transmission is 25%.

How can you prove that 25% wasn't caused by overseas tourists travelling all over the country?

faceman

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Community transmission is 25%.

How can you prove that 25% wasn't caused by overseas tourists travelling all over the country?

Simple really. We look at evidence from other EU countries who have a more thorough contact tracing system process than Ireland. As I said, the stat is less than 2%