Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

johnire

But you’ve got to got to think about how the locals feel in the country you’re travelling to about a person travelling from a country I.e. Ireland with a relatively high infection rate. That’s not really fair to them is it?

3xh wrote: »

Then if that’s the case, that’s the case. But even red country citizens are allowed travel into Green and Amber countries under the new plan. And the guards won’t be able to stop people travelling to the airport either. They couldn’t do that even in April and May.

For the whole summer it’s been this blinkered droning about ‘close the borders’ without actually getting how stupid that is. And it’s largely because of the lazy media taking the easy way out with supportive click bait articles instead of explaining how it can’t happen.

3xh

Good night, johnire.

johnire

Good night

3xh wrote: »

Good night, johnire.

theological

If this is how coronavirus can spread to 30 people from one couple who had been away over a weekend, it shows how even a small proportion of people who are infected abroad could lead to major community spread.

I agree that other things like reducing social contacts are important but it is important to stop new infections coming into Ireland and other countries at their root cause also to stop the virus spreading further and to get it under control.

Claiming that travelling abroad isn't a problem is ostrich syndrome.

3xh wrote: »

Ok, so let’s for a moment stop all holiday air travel, etc. What’s the travel transmission % now? You don’t know. How many of the Covid cases comes in from essential service travel like hauliers etc. Or other workers needing to travel abroad and back. It’s one of those catch-all claims, ‘Close the Borders’

The majority of air freight in and out of Ireland takes place on normal passenger aircraft. Not dedicated cargo aircraft.

Will you stop with this fallacy that banning John and Mary from heading to wherever it is they’re going is going to stop transmissions worthy enough of banning flights that also import/export food, goods, medicine.

I have to wonder, if NPHET never recommenced the quarantine, or the passenger locator form, or advised the government to spend loads on media shaming stories about travel or if NPHET said ‘in our view international travel is fine, there’s no reason to see any negatives to it,’ would you still be going on the way you are?

I doubt it.

Listening to your arguments, imo, you’re just parroting without thinking of the effects and logistical nightmare your border shutdown would bring.

Reducing non-essential travel would reduce the number of people bringing new imported cases of coronavirus into the country. If it was just hauliers it would be easier to deal with than if it was thousands of people going on holiday.

faceman

theological wrote: »

If this is how coronavirus can spread to 30 people from one couple who had been away over a weekend, it shows how even a small proportion of people who are infected abroad could lead to major community spread.

I agree that other things like reducing social contacts are important but it is important to stop new infections coming into Ireland and other countries at their root cause also to stop the virus spreading further and to get it under control.

Claiming that travelling abroad isn't a problem is ostrich syndrome.



Reducing non-essential travel would reduce the number of people bringing new imported cases of coronavirus into the country. If it was just hauliers it would be easier to deal with than if it was thousands of people going on holiday.

At this point its not worth replying anymore so this is my last on the subject. The example you linked too doesn’t relate to international travel. It relates to domestic travel, lack of social distancing and relevant hygiene and probably a dose of bad luck too. Of course it could happen to someone abroad too.

The point is that international travel is no more riskier than staycations, trips to pubs and restaurants in Ireland etc etc. If travel is to a region that has less coronavirus than Ireland then you’re safer there. Many European countries have stricter standards than Ireland too.

Talk of importing the virus to Ireland is nonsense. The virus is already here and in circulation.

If you want to stop travel for the risks it carries, then you’ll want to close pubs, restaurants, non essential shops here too.

But what’s the end game?

Zero covid? Not even Paul Reid thinks that’s realistic

Flatten the curve? It’s already flattened, check the stats

Reduce number of deaths? The only way to truly eliminate fatalities is zero covid. But even if that was an option, doing so will result in increased fatalities in other areas of health who got unprioritised as we seen from March to now. Is that something we are willing to continue?

The argument “it’s not forever” is short sighted and dangerous. It’s been 7 months now and is likely going to be another 3-7 years. Are you suggesting families don’t see each other for that period of time?

What exactly do you think is the end game strategy?

theological

I agree it isn't related to international travel but it proves that the 2% chestnut isn't really that helpful. If a pair of people can transmit to 30 others then two people who return from a high infection country and then continue socialising could lead to a major outbreak in weeks.

That's the nail in the coffin to this argument.

faceman

theological wrote: »

I agree it isn't related to international travel but it proves that the 2% chestnut isn't really that helpful. If a pair of people can transmit to 30 others then two people who return from a high infection country and then continue socialising could lead to a major outbreak in weeks.

That's the nail in the coffin to this argument.

Your argument is hypocritical selective perpetuating a false reality

theological

faceman wrote: »

Your argument is hypocritical selective perpetuating a false reality

What's false about it? There are documented cases of this happening. It is how the virus entered Ireland to begin with.

What's false is people saying that international travel in the pandemic is not a significant risk when it obviously is.

Mullaghteelin

faceman wrote: »

The argument “it’s not forever” is short sighted and dangerous. It’s been 7 months nowand is likely going to be another 3-7 years. Are you suggesting families don’t see each other for that period of time?

What exactly do you think is the end game strategy?

The anti-lockdown crowd are really starting to exaggerate how far away the vaccine is likely to be. I suppose next week it'll be 10-15 years away so we might as well give up and go back to normal.

theological

faceman wrote: »

The point is that international travel is no more riskier than staycations, trips to pubs and restaurants in Ireland etc etc. If travel is to a region that has less coronavirus than Ireland then you’re safer there. Many European countries have stricter standards than Ireland too.

The difference is that travel imports cases from outside which hinders attempts to control the virus within Ireland.

faceman wrote: »

Talk of importing the virus to Ireland is nonsense. The virus is already here and in circulation.

The task is to control the spread within Ireland. With track and trace this should be possible. Contact tracing whilst new cases are still entering Ireland and spreading in the community is impossible. This travel is not essential and is making the task of controlling the virus more difficult.

faceman wrote: »

If you want to stop travel for the risks it carries, then you’ll want to close pubs, restaurants, non essential shops here too.

In high infection areas yes. In other areas a balancing act to control the virus and keep the economy going is acceptable. Track and trace domestically should be possible. I just think the balance you are arguing for is wrong. Restricting travel and getting the virus under control will be better for the economy long term.

faceman wrote: »

But what’s the end game?

Zero covid? Not even Paul Reid thinks that’s realistic

Flatten the curve? It’s already flattened, check the stats

Reduce number of deaths? The only way to truly eliminate fatalities is zero covid. But even if that was an option, doing so will result in increased fatalities in other areas of health who got unprioritised as we seen from March to now. Is that something we are willing to continue?

The argument “it’s not forever” is short sighted and dangerous. It’s been 7 months now and is likely going to be another 3-7 years. Are you suggesting families don’t see each other for that period of time?

What exactly do you think is the end game strategy?

The end game is zero coronavirus in Ireland. I'd like that strategy in the UK also. Anything else is just giving up.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

The end game is zero coronavirus in Ireland. I'd like that strategy in the UK also. Anything else is just giving up.

Well, at least your being honest now... Zero Covid, you're living in a dream world sadly.
PCR Positive tests are driving the show now but to shut down Air/sea travel because of it and chase a dream of Zero new cases just is pure fantasy, the only virus that's ever been contained in history was Smallpox.. Even with an effective vaccine you still won't contain the Covid virus fully... So how will sealing the borders achieve what a vaccine can't?

hurleronditch

theological wrote: »

What's false about it? There are documented cases of this happening. It is how the virus entered Ireland to begin with.

What's false is people saying that international travel in the pandemic is not a significant risk when it obviously is.

It entered before people knew what it was, how contagious it was and how to mitigate its spread.

Explain to me how, if I live in say Athlone, and I decide I want a weekend away. If I go to Cork, which has the same 14 day rate as say Amsterdam, and otherwise my actions are identical? I take public transport to get there, I go and stay in a hotel for 3 nights, I eat and drink in 6 different bars and restaurants, I take the same approach to mask wearing and hand washing, and then I travel home again.

How are my actions increasing the number of cases in Ireland by going to Amsterdam?

If I randomly pick it up from the person sitting down near me for dinner in Amsterdam, if I had gone to cork instead and picked it up the same way, the net number of Irish cases would be exactly the same?

The key thing is not the international travel, it’s the activity of the individual when there that’s important. People want to socialise, they currently can do that in Ireland, which currently is a moderate to high prevalence country. So let them do it abroad too, once they ensure best practice it actually makes no difference.

theological

I've explained the difference between domestic and international travel already. Basically shared data and domestic track and trace can control this in national borders. In addition people shouldn't travel to any areas under local restrictions. I've replied to this point repeatedly already. Track and trace is not really possible in an international context.

Golfman64

https://jrnl.ie/5223251

Great news on a Sunday. The ability to travel freely or at worst, after a negative test will be a massive boost to the travel, tourism and hospitality industries.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

I've explained the difference between domestic and international travel already. Basically shared data and domestic track and trace can control this in national borders. In addition people shouldn't travel to any areas under local restrictions. I've replied to this point repeatedly already. Track and trace is not really possible in an international context.

You're bordering on deluded now, you can not eliminate this disease by closing borders, not even in your wildest dreams. Flare ups are happening in groups of people who never travelled aboard through all this, and who are testing positive for covid, are you telling me just because they're in one region that all cases can be traced back somewhere with absolute accuracy so as to isolate further flare ups?

Track and trace not possible in International locations? Man... too much time spent in isolation here...! Any country i've travelled to recently required me to fill out a locator form and present it at the border, with my address, where I live, what seat I sat in on the aircraft, where my hotel was... Get temperature checked as I handed over my PLF, scanning barcodes on my phone as I got tested twice.... At all hotels, bars and restaurants I went to I filled out my name/address/phone number/email... So don't talk horse manure!

theological

I mean track and trace across borders is challenging. For example tracing contacts of those who have travelled back to the source of infection in another country. The reality is that zero coronavirus within Ireland and other countries is possible but people don't want to take the measure necessary. Taiwan did it by restricting travel. Ireland could too.

saabsaab

Even if what some are saying is true re the 2%, is it fair to foist our now high rates upon other low rate countries? Would that doubtful 2%, (all cases are ultimately travel related or how could it have spread). Would it stay that way 2% long if mass travel returned? Not likely. Best our people stay put for now. A vaccine is the end game.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

I mean track and trace across borders is challenging. For example tracing contacts of those who have travelled back to the source of infection in another country. The reality is that zero coronavirus within Ireland and other countries is possible but people don't want to take the measure necessary. Taiwan did it by restricting travel. Ireland could too.

Stop comparing Ireland with a country which is completely different culturally, economically and politically, apples and pears!

Steps like the Covid tracing app now working across countries plus the other measure I described are just as effective.
You can't trace every single infection but using existing measures you can trace clusters/outbreaks.

Closing borders, opening, closing business, opening is what the zero covid approach means, yo-yo'ing for years, and it's becoming worse than the disease and is a false method of trying to control the uncontrollable.. even you have to admit that.

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Stop comparing Ireland with a country which is completely different culturally, economically and politically, apples and pears!

Steps like the Covid tracing app now working across countries plus the other measure I described are just as effective.
You can't trace every single infection but using existing measures you can trace clusters/outbreaks.

Closing borders, opening, closing business, opening is what the zero covid approach means, yo-yo'ing for years, and it's becoming worse than the disease and is a false method of trying to control the uncontrollable.. even you have to admit that.

It's not uncontrollable, the lockdown worked. We have to wait till a vaccine and it won't be years away, where did you get that? probably a few months more.

BringBackMick

So what is the plan?

<25 per 100k 14 day average ....no swab
<50 per 100k 14 day average.... random swabbing?
50-100 per 100k 14 day average....all swabbed..?
>100 per 100k 14 day average....travel banned?

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

It's not uncontrollable, the lockdown worked. We have to wait till a vaccine and it won't be years away, where did you get that? probably a few months more.

The lockdown while it flattened the curve, look where we are now... Do you want yo-yo restrictions for the next 3 years? Do you think business and economies are designed to be opened up and shut down constantly?
If you call you bank manager and tell them you can't pay your mortgage every 2nd or 4rd month or pay your electric bill do you think they will say "ah sure pay me when you have it" ... no, you'll be out on the street...

theological

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The lockdown while it flattened the curve, look where we are now... Do you want yo-yo restrictions for the next 3 years? Do you think business and economies are designed to be opened up and shut down constantly?
If you call you bank manager and tell them you can't pay your mortgage every 2nd or 4rd month or pay your electric bill do you think they will say "ah sure pay me when you have it" ... no, you'll be out on the street...

If it saves lives. Yes.

I'm open to enduring another lockdown if necessary to limit the spread of the virus where I am in London in the winter and to save hospital capacity.

Nobody wants restrictions but the only way not to have them at all is to eradicate the virus.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

If it saves lives. Yes.
I'm open to enduring another lockdown if necessary to limit the spread of the virus where I am in London in the winter and to save hospital capacity.
Nobody wants restrictions but the only way not to have them at all is to eradicate the virus.

Ok my friend I hope you've plenty of cash stuffed into the mattress and loads of long life non-perishable food in the press while you await the eradication of Covid19.

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The lockdown while it flattened the curve, look where we are now... Do you want yo-yo restrictions for the next 3 years? Do you think business and economies are designed to be opened up and shut down constantly?
If you call you bank manager and tell them you can't pay your mortgage every 2nd or 4rd month or pay your electric bill do you think they will say "ah sure pay me when you have it" ... no, you'll be out on the street...

Where o where are you getting this 3 years thing? Probably for another few months..

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

Where o where are you getting this 3 years thing? Probably for another few months..

Ha! You're funny, you think the general public across the globe will all have a safe effective brand new never tried before vaccine in "another few months" January maybe?
I think you're listening to Donald Trump too much, promising one in time for the U.S elections!

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ha! You're funny, you think the general public across the globe will all have a safe effective brand new never tried before vaccine in "another few months" January maybe?
I think you're listening to Donald Trump too much, promising one in time for the U.S elections!

I think you are getting the 3 more years from him!

is_that_so

Possible good news on airport testing.

Pre-departure Covid-19 testing at Dublin and Cork airports could be made available to passengers by mid-October with government assistance, the Oireachtas Transport Committee has heard.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40060880.html

saabsaab

is_that_so wrote: »

Possible good news on airport testing.



https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40060880.html

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Testing before people come in.

normanoffside

saabsaab wrote: »

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Testing before people come in.

No, you are going to have to bring a negative test result with you (taken no more than 3 days before flying) to get entry into countries.
Same will apply to people coming here from countries with high incidences.

Heart Break Kid

Isn’t the issue community transmission between Irish natives more of and issue then people flying in?