Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

Heart Break Kid

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

Isn’t the issue community transmission between Irish natives more of and issue then people flying in?

And round we go again......!

Golfman64

Deleted User wrote: »

And round we go again......!

The overall idea is that following the publication of the common EU travel policy next week, travel will be made more seamless, consistent and predictable across the entire EU during the pandemic. There will be a common criteria for evaluation of a countries status to Green, Orange, Red and Grey. For Green and Orange, unrestricted travel without testing or quarantine will be allowed. For citizens travelling from a countries designated Red and Grey, a pre-departure (less than 72 hours) negative covid test will be required in order to enter the destination country. By removing the 14 day quarantine period and replacing with a pre-departure test, the risk is being minimised whilst taking into account the economic and health benefits of less restricted travel within the EU.

is_that_so

saabsaab wrote: »

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Testing before people come in.

If it's the same plan elsewhere it really doesn't matter and it's better to find it before planes leave.

saabsaab

Golfman64 wrote: »

The overall idea is that following the publication of the common EU travel policy next week, travel will be made more seamless, consistent and predictable across the entire EU during the pandemic. There will be a common criteria for evaluation of a countries status to Green, Orange, Red and Grey. For Green and Orange, unrestricted travel without testing or quarantine will be allowed. For citizens travelling from a countries designated Red and Grey, a pre-departure (less than 72 hours) negative covid test will be required in order to enter the destination country. By removing the 14 day quarantine period and replacing with a pre-departure test, the risk is being minimised whilst taking into account the economic and health benefits of less restricted travel within the EU.

What health benefits?

Golfman64

saabsaab wrote: »

What health benefits?

Mental Health and also the ability of countries to provide the necessary financial resourcing to their health systems to support citizens who require hospitalisation for any reason are intrinsically linked to the performance of the economy of the given country. Less restricted and most importantly safe movement between EU countries should be a beneficial element to the economy.

saabsaab

Golfman64 wrote: »

Mental Health and also the ability of countries to provide the necessary financial resourcing to their health systems to support citizens who require hospitalisation for any reason are intrinsically linked to the performance of the economy of the given country. Less restricted and most importantly safe movement between EU countries should be a beneficial element to the economy.

Is there any evidence of mental health benefits related to airtravel. I seriously doubt it but if you have any let us know.

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

Is there any evidence of mental health benefits related to airtravel. I seriously doubt it but if you have any let us know.

Yes, getting away from Covid obsessed Ireland for a break away to ease stress, I strongly recommend you try it..

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yes, getting away from Covid obsessed Ireland for a break away to ease stress, I strongly recommend you try it..

No evidence then.

Still think countries should follow Cambodia's lead. 5k healthcare deposit, must have good health insurance, pay for test on arrival, pay for hotel until next day when you receive test result. Then you're free to go.

theological

Deleted User wrote: »

Still think countries should follow Cambodia's lead. 5k healthcare deposit, must have good health insurance, pay for test on arrival, pay for hotel until next day when you receive test result. Then you're free to go.

Iceland scrapped this because people were testing negative only to get symptoms later. Test on arrival doesn't work.

If you're in the incubation period you can test negative despite having the virus. This is why most countries encourage testing for those who are symptomatic first.

faceman

saabsaab wrote: »

Is there any evidence of mental health benefits related to airtravel. I seriously doubt it but if you have any let us know.

I see you’re still in the camp of air travel is just for people going on holiday. Not all of us have family, loved ones or work commitments in Ireland. Travel bans, domestic or otherwise, impact mental health.

Your really need to expand your tunnel vision view on travel. It’s ignorant

theological

faceman wrote: »

I see you’re still in the camp of air travel is just for people going on holiday. Not all of us have family, loved ones or work commitments in Ireland. Travel bans, domestic or otherwise, impact mental health.

Your really need to expand your funnel vision view on travel. It’s ignorant

A balance needs to be struck. If someone comes back and causes a large importation of cases back into the community that's an unacceptable outcome.

Personally I've maintained contact with my family in Ireland using the internet. I've mentioned before that they even missed my wedding earlier in the summer. It isn't ideal but I know that I couldn't forgive myself if I went home and caused a spread of the virus within my family or if they came here and were infected during their stay here or by moving through airports or sitting on planes.

These aren't normal times. We need to make sacrifices for the sake of others.

3xh

faceman wrote: »

I see you’re still in the camp of air travel is just for people going on holiday. Not all of us have family, loved ones or work commitments in Ireland. Travel bans, domestic or otherwise, impact mental health.

Your really need to expand your tunnel vision view on travel. It’s ignorant

I was going to write exactly this and then I saw this so I’ll just copy and paste it here again for emphasis and hope saabsaab understands that his question about ‘what are the health effects of air travel’ isn’t a binary one where the answer is fewer cancer, osteoporosis or hypothyroid cases, etc.

Tenzor07

theological wrote: »

A balance needs to be struck. If someone comes back and causes a large importation of cases back into the community that's an unacceptable outcome.
Personally I've maintained contact with my family in Ireland using the internet. I've mentioned before that they even missed my wedding earlier in the summer. It isn't ideal but I know that I couldn't forgive myself if I went home and caused a spread of the virus within my family or if they came here and were infected during their stay here or by moving through airports or sitting on planes.
These aren't normal times. We need to make sacrifices for the sake of others.

You're in the U.K so go have a look at figure 12 and tell me how International travel is the highest driver of infections:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8818613/Northerners-rage-dictator-Boris-Johnson-using-petri-dish-tough-curbs.html

323

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yes, getting away from Covid obsessed Ireland for a break away to ease stress, I strongly recommend you try it..

Wholly agree, Apart from the sinus infection I got from mask in the plane, it was refreshing to arrive in Schiphol a few weeks back.

faceman

theological wrote: »

A balance needs to be struck. If someone comes back and causes a large importation of cases back into the community that's an unacceptable outcome.

Personally I've maintained contact with my family in Ireland using the internet. I've mentioned before that they even missed my wedding earlier in the summer. It isn't ideal but I know that I couldn't forgive myself if I went home and caused a spread of the virus within my family or if they came here and were infected during their stay here or by moving through airports or sitting on planes.

These aren't normal times. We need to make sacrifices for the sake of others.

Completely agree about balance. But for Ireland's case, there is no balance, never has been. While the rest of Europe takes progressive policies, Ireland remains the outlier. Eamon Ryan already indicated that implementation will take time. Its not as if the news of the policy will be 'hot of the press' on October 13th. Other countries are already making preparations. the DAA has a proposal with government. Nothing is being done in Ireland and its suits the government agenda to have people still believe, despite the evidence, that travel is a major driver of viral transmission.

We have all made sacrifices, but 8 months on with no sign of Covid abating, we need to reexamine how we live with the virus. In the case of travel, testing before travel is the obvious solution.

The Irish media has seemed to drop the human impact of all this. Inter county travel is a smoke screen. My remaining grandmother, I'm unlikely to see her before she dies and when she does, its unlikely I will get to her funeral. "We need to make sacrifices" is one thing, but we dont put ourselves in others shoes when pandering that perspective. Has anyone asked the eldery what they need social and mentally. Imagine what my grandmother feels knowing she is unlikely to see much of her family in person before she dies. (She's not ill or anything but being in her late 90's means its not quite so easy to say "see you in a few months".)

There was an article in the Spanish media today which interview pensioners in Spain and asked them for their perspective. They talk about a life now living in fear and loneliness with one person saying, "If the virus doesn't kill us, sadness will".

Of course Im not in any way knocking your message of sacrifices. The reality is that many people have made larger sacrifices than others.

theological

faceman wrote: »

Completely agree about balance. But for Ireland's case, there is no balance, never has been. While the rest of Europe takes progressive policies, Ireland remains the outlier. Eamon Ryan already indicated that implementation will take time. Its not as if the news of the policy will be 'hot of the press' on October 13th. Other countries are already making preparations. the DAA has a proposal with government. Nothing is being done in Ireland and its suits the government agenda to have people still believe, despite the evidence, that travel is a major driver of viral transmission.

We have all made sacrifices, but 8 months on with no sign of Covid abating, we need to reexamine how we live with the virus. In the case of travel, testing before travel is the obvious solution.

The Irish media has seemed to drop the human impact of all this. Inter county travel is a smoke screen. My remaining grandmother, I'm unlikely to see her before she dies and when she does, its unlikely I will get to her funeral. "We need to make sacrifices" is one thing, but we dont put ourselves in others shoes when pandering that perspective. Has anyone asked the eldery what they need social and mentally. Imagine what my grandmother feels knowing she is unlikely to see much of her family in person before she dies. (She's not ill or anything but being in her late 90's means its not quite so easy to say "see you in a few months".)

There was an article in the Spanish media today which interview pensioners in Spain and asked them for their perspective. They talk about a life now living in fear and loneliness with one person saying, "If the virus doesn't kill us, sadness will".

Of course Im not in any way knocking your message of sacrifices. The reality is that many people have made larger sacrifices than others.

Again. I'm not without sympathy in respect to the sacrifices but they are necessary. Europe is in the second wave of this pandemic. We're not going to beat it if we try to live the way we did before.

I've made significant sacrifices already and I'm willing to make more over winter if we can send the virus packing. That's the only way to get normality.

Edit: testing before travelling doesn't work as I've mentioned previously.

faceman

theological wrote: »

Again. I'm not without sympathy in respect to the sacrifices are necessary. Europe is in the second wave of this pandemic. We're not going to beat it if we try to live the way we did before.

I've made significant sacrifices already and I'm willing to make more over winter if we can send the virus packing. That's the only way to get normality.

The most concerning thing about the second wave is that Ireland so far is the only country in Europe to be heading toward a full lockdown again. And if he do, it will not because of case numbers are high, it’s because our health system is a shambles and nothing was done since March to address it

saabsaab

faceman wrote: »

I see you’re still in the camp of air travel is just for people going on holiday. Not all of us have family, loved ones or work commitments in Ireland. Travel bans, domestic or otherwise, impact mental health.

Your really need to expand your tunnel vision view on travel. It’s ignorant

You are putting words in my mouth of course necessary travel would be allowed. You give no evidence that air travel bans affect mental health. Such a claim needs to be backed up.

theological

faceman wrote: »

The most concerning thing about the second wave is that Ireland so far is the only country in Europe to be heading toward a full lockdown again. And if he do, it will not because of case numbers are high, it’s because our health system is a shambles and nothing was done since March to address it

So effectively you think we should just let the virus rip through society and hospitalise those that need it?

The restrictions are there to save lives. That's why I'd be happy to accept more measures if they stop the spread of the virus.

It is unfortunate to live in a world with coronavirus but the best way to deal with it is to send it packing not to keep it in society and prolonging it with our behaviour.

Irish Aris

saabsaab wrote: »

You are putting words in my mouth of course necessary travel would be allowed. You give no evidence that air travel bans affect mental health. Such a claim needs to be backed up.

I don't think anyone can claim with certainty or evidence that it affects mental health. My opinion is that it is different for each individual.
If I take myself for example, I live in Ireland alone - my parents and sister are in Greece and the prospect of spending Christmas alone sounds unbearable. Thus I will try to visit and spend Christmas with them if there are flights available. I guess you could put such a trip under essential though not absolutely necessary, but from my point of view it will make a big difference mentally to be with my family at that time of the year

saabsaab

Irish Aris wrote: »

I don't think anyone can claim with certainty or evidence that it affects mental health. My opinion is that it is different for each individual.
If I take myself for example, I live in Ireland alone - my parents and sister are in Greece and the prospect of spending Christmas alone sounds unbearable. Thus I will try to visit and spend Christmas with them if there are flights available. I guess you could put such a trip under essential though not absolutely necessary, but from my point of view it will make a big difference mentally to be with my family at that time of the year

I don't think that individual cases are useful in this context but would a doctor back up that claim?

Irish Aris

saabsaab wrote: »

I don't think that individual cases are useful in this context but would a doctor back up that claim?

I don't know, I guess not. . . Wouldn't be familiar with mental health issues as I never had any issues or considerations like that before covid.
I think though there is an element that individual circumstances might be different, my opinion is that one size doesn't fit all.

fly_agaric

faceman wrote: »

our health system is a shambles and nothing was done since March to address it

As they say "it is what it is", and we have to live (or not!) with that.

Complete fantasy land to expect it would be brought up to the levels of other wealthy EU countries over the summer.

Would tend to blame the public here as much as the politicians and/or vested interests when I think of the sort of "debates" that have gone on about healthcare in this country over the years (e.g. children's hospital fiasco, the "saving" of the totem tiny local hospital or unit with rotten outcomes etc.).

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

I don't think that individual cases are useful in this context but would a doctor back up that claim?

Mental health is often overlooked by people and brushed off by others as "you're just having a bad day.."

And seeing as you're not Doctor Saab I assume you're not qualified to declare no connection between not being able to travel to see family or take a well deserved break away, I know Doctors, Nurses and Gardai who should not be denied a chance to de-stress on holidays abroad for their mental health, whether you think it should be backed up by detailed medical evidence or not.

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Mental health is often overlooked by people and brushed off by others as "you're just having a bad day.."

And seeing as you're not Doctor Saab I assume you're not qualified to declare no connection between not being able to travel to see family or take a well deserved break away, I know Doctors, Nurses and Gardai who should not be denied a chance to de-stress on holidays abroad for their mental health, whether you think it should be backed up by detailed medical evidence or not.

I have asked for evidence for a claim that's all. None provided and if a Doctor prescribes such a course of action than so be it..


Using mental health as an excuse for overall continued air travel is wrong.

faceman

theological wrote: »

So effectively you think we should just let the virus rip through society and hospitalise those that need it?

The restrictions are there to save lives. That's why I'd be happy to accept more measures if they stop the spread of the virus.

It is unfortunate to live in a world with coronavirus but the best way to deal with it is to send it packing not to keep it in society and prolonging it with our behaviour.

No where did I say that.

The current restrictions aren’t saving lives, the death rate is increasing.

The government is throwing restrictions at us in Ireland and rates are still climbing. That should suggest something is broke.

At a basic level we know masks and social distancing are where they buck stops. Yet it’s still not enforced or even law, bar a tokenism rule on public transport that again isn’t enforced.

On the spot non negotiable fines for not wearing a mask (or wearing it incorrectly) should have been brought in months ago. Stores should also be given appropriate measures to refuse entry or order someone to leave for not wearing a mask. Non negotiable fines for not complying.

By non negotiable I mean treat it the same way we treat clamping. Clamp and person has to appeal. Same for masks. Fine and the person can appeal it if they feel they have been wronged

Restaurants, cafes and bars should have seen more frequent inspections. Since returning to Ireland I visited 2 restaurants and 1 bar. In both cases social distancing wasn’t properly in place (tables were spaced making it look like they were socially distanced but once people sat down at 2 tables next to each other there was no adequate social distancing.)
In the case of one of the restaurants it was the same.

The other restaurant met the requirements.

If we can’t get the basics right then we are wasting our time. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, you don’t even see basic use of hand sanisters by people walking in to supermarkets.

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

I have asked for evidence for a claim that's all. None provided and if a Doctor prescribes such a course of action than so be it..
Using mental health as an excuse for overall continued air travel is wrong.

Not everything is so simple, do you think your employer would accept that your suffering poor mental health that day as an excuse not to come to work? So a Doctors hardly likely to prescribe a day off for you not feeling mentally up for it, but the reason is still valid!
Not seeing ones family and friends or having a holiday away from the stress of life in these hard times is a valid reason to travel by air, maybe not for you but that's down to the individual..

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Not everything is so simple, do you think your employer would accept that your suffering poor mental health that day as an excuse not to come to work? So a Doctors hardly likely to prescribe a day off for you not feeling mentally up for it, but the reason is still valid!
Not seeing ones family and friends or having a holiday away from the stress of life in these hard times is a valid reason to travel by air, maybe not for you but that's down to the individual..

Why should he accept it? I don't think it should be an individual choice. Laws are not up to the individual to obey as they see fit.

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

Why should he accept it? I don't think it should be an individual choice. Laws are not up to the individual to obey as they see fit.

Mental health is a very real thing my friend, and it affects everyone, some more than others..and we need to look after it as best we can..