Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

theological

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not practical unless you are isolated yet NZ, who have gone for that, are yet again they are imposing a form of lockdown for just one case. We know COVID keeps coming back and even in China where they can lock people in cases are still emerging. East Asia is really not comparable in terms of culture and as some of their measures would fall foul of GDPR.

Why is it not "practical"? Because Western people think their liberties are more important than the health of others?

I don't know why you are bringing in GDPR when I'm referring to travel bans like in Taiwan.

COVID keeps coming back because we keep giving it an opportunity to with international travel.

Taiwan as of the end of October was COVID free for 200 days.

ShineOn7

is_that_so wrote: »

Possible testing at Dublin & Cork airports coming soon.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/travel-restrictions-eased-following-changes-to-covid-19-testing-rules-1.4405833

The "shure it'll be grand" by Ireland's "government" is most evident with their attitude to airports, the **** are literally 6 months behind the measures of some countries

Didn't only 8% of those told to restrict their movements get a follow up phone call?

What did that go like then?

"Hello there Mr Murphy. Are you restricting your movements since you got back into the country? You are? Grand so! Have a lovely day"

The whole country is under one of the restrictive levels in the EU and yet, fcuking still 6 months on, there are new cases seeded every day from people coming into our airports

This "government" will go down as one of the most spineless this country has ever seen

is_that_so

theological wrote: »

Why is it not "practical"? Because Western people think their liberties are more important than the health of others?

I don't know why you are bringing in GDPR when I'm referring to travel bans like in Taiwan.

COVID keeps coming back because we keep giving it an opportunity to with international travel.

Taiwan as of the end of October was COVID free for 200 days.

Because it requires the severe measures you've described. We don't do travel bans, being in the EU and Taiwan along with S Korea and others use mobile phone tracking. That's GDPR territory. Travel is a smaller component of the spread, it's the subsequent behaviours that are at the root of it.

theological

is_that_so wrote: »

Because it requires the severe measures you've described. We don't do travel bans, being in the EU and Taiwan along with S Korea and others use mobile phone tracking. That's GDPR territory. Travel is a smaller component of the spread, it's the subsequent behaviours that are at the root of it.

I don't think it does. It simply requires control on people arriving in the country.

Australia has followed the same approach in respect to mandatory quarantine and banning non-essential travel into the country. Their cases are now for the most part in single figures.

The reality is we could do similar, it is just that we don't want to because we put our own rights above the well being of others.

Hiding behind the EU doesn't spare the Irish government's strategy criticism.

is_that_so

theological wrote: »

I don't think it does. It simply requires control on people arriving in the country.

Australia has followed the same approach in respect to mandatory quarantine and banning non-essential travel into the country. Their cases are now for the most part in single figures.

The reality is we could do similar, it is just that we don't want to because we put our own rights above the well being of others.

Hiding behind the EU doesn't spare the Irish government's strategy criticism.

Australia locked down one state for 4 months, which is hardly a ringing endorsement. Their own screwup on quarantine was what caused that. There are ways to face this pandemic and like the vast majority of countries we've chosen not to restrict freedom of movement in and out of the country. That also matches the EU position on it.

ShineOn7

ShineOn7 wrote: »

Otherwise all of the restrictions were for nothing


UK, the Americas and Sweden shouldn't be allowed into Ireland till they get their omnishambles together

I agree but these aren't the worst countries at the moment. Belgium, The Netherlands, France and Italy are much worse. And we have a land border with the UK. It's not going to fly politically for some reason. Locking up your own citizens is much easier.

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

Because it requires the severe measures you've described. We don't do travel bans, being in the EU and Taiwan along with S Korea and others use mobile phone tracking. That's GDPR territory. Travel is a smaller component of the spread, it's the subsequent behaviours that are at the root of it.

Most of the corona in Ireland right now is a mutation from Spain that happened in the summer. If we had mandatory quarantines for people coming in it wouldn't have happened. People who went abroad or travelled here in the summer are per definition idiots who would spread it widely. A 14 day mandatory quarantine would have stopped them in their tracks.

But NOOOO it makes more sense to shut down all businesses and bankrupt the country than to inconvenience a few holidaymakers. Realistically we should also have border controls with NI unless they get in line with us.

theological

is_that_so wrote: »

Australia locked down one state for 4 months, which is hardly a ringing endorsement. Their own screwup on quarantine was what caused that. There are ways to face this pandemic and like the vast majority of countries we've chosen not to restrict freedom of movement in and out of the country. That also matches the EU position on it.

Sure, because Victoria decided to use private contractors instead of the military to enforce quarantine.

That is a failure of the state government in Victoria rather than the entire Australian approach to controlling the virus.

Overall, they have done much better than Ireland.

The fact is you can't have lockdown easing, and free travel. It is one or the other. That's the mistake that Europe made in the summer.

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of the corona in Ireland right now is a mutation from Spain that happened in the summer. If we had mandatory quarantines for people coming in it wouldn't have happened. People who went abroad or travelled here in the summer are per definition idiots who would spread it widely. A 14 day mandatory quarantine would have stopped them in their tracks.

But NOOOO it makes more sense to shut down all businesses and bankrupt the country than to inconvenience a few holidaymakers. Realistically we should also have border controls with NI unless they get in line with us.

I couldn't agree with this point more.

I'd rather keep the vast majority of businesses running and have the travel industry take the brunt rather than the travel industry running and every other aspect of the economy struggle.

As for NI their policy is more conservative than the Republic at the moment in that quarantine is legally enforced and in England you can only travel abroad for limited reasons during their lockdown.

ShineOn7

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree but these aren't the worst countries at the moment. Belgium, The Netherlands, France and Italy are much worse. And we have a land border with the UK. It's not going to fly politically for some reason. Locking up your own citizens is much easier.

You're quoting my opening post from mid June

This situation changes weekly, let alone monthly

caveat emptor

is_that_so wrote: »

Australia locked down one state for 4 months, which is hardly a ringing endorsement. Their own screwup on quarantine was what caused that. There are ways to face this pandemic and like the vast majority of countries we've chosen not to restrict freedom of movement in and out of the country. That also matches the EU position on it.

That was one state. The others have had a normal life for a very long time. We have had a **** year. These decisions will mean we will have a **** year next year too.

Why are you so enamoured with "living with the virus"? Do you like staying home and not being able to see friends and family. Do you like your kids not being able to play with their friends.

I think the biggest advocates for open borders are those with property or work interests abroad. Very much a loud and influential minority.

Can't wait for lockdown part 3. I think we'll start seeing people demanding the government do the sensible thing. How come Spain demands a negative test on arrival?

fly_agaric

is_that_so wrote: »

There are ways to face this pandemic and like the vast majority of countries we've chosen not to restrict freedom of movement in and out of the country. That also matches the EU position on it.

I have not seen examples of other ways so far. The EU countries approaches have failed really as they've had to bring in blanket restrictions to control the virus again. In some senses alot of the EU countries have better policies than Ireland anyway. The Schengen members did have the courage to just ban tourists from some countries & I think some enforce tests now also. Travel regulations here are strict on paper but unenforced & IMO the numbers who will flout it are enough to compromise it.

Our aproach will fail again anyway. Once they try & open up the economy more while cases are present in the community & new "seeds" can be brought in via travel the cases will rise again and the govt. will need to bring in restrictions again to prevent the HSE/hospitals buckling under the strain. It is going to get very, very old (without discussing damage it is causing to the economy).

We'll be at this until at least late next year IMO. I can't see the HSE getting shots of a vaccine rolled out to 70 % of so (or even 50 %) of entire population in a few months even if one is available in quantities needed.

caveat emptor wrote: »

I think the biggest advocates for open borders are those with property or work interests abroad. Very much a loud and influential minority.

EDIT: Hadn't thought of it like that but you are probably right...excluding the travel/tourism industry itself of course. The other aspect is it just flies in the face of alot of the political axioms held dear by Western/democratic countries. It is ideology over reality.

is_that_so

fly_agaric wrote: »

I have not seen examples of other ways so far. The EU countries approaches have failed really as they've had to bring in blanket restrictions to control the virus again. In some senses alot of the EU countries have better policies than Ireland anyway. The Schengen members did have the courage to just ban tourists from some countries & I think some enforce tests now also. Travel regulations here are strict on paper but unenforced & IMO the numbers who will flout it are enough to compromise it.

Our aproach will fail again anyway. Once they try & open up the economy more while cases are present in the community & new "seeds" can be brought in via travel the cases will rise again and the govt. will need to bring in restrictions again to prevent the HSE/hospitals buckling under the strain.

We'll be at this until at least late next year IMO. I can't see the HSE getting shots of a vaccine rolled out to 70 % of so (or even 50 %) of entire population in a few months even if one is available in quantities needed.

Almost all approaches have "failed", it's managing it until we get vaccines. They've all been tweaking their responses. Unlike us, shutting down is a last resort rather than a first choice but many of them have masks everywhere as a result. It's really the testing regime that's key anyway. There will be vaccines, in the plural, next year. Another 2-3 candidates should report data this month.

440Hertz

I’ve a feeling we are going to just get this down to a low number before Xmas and then throw the whole thing back down the toilet, wasting billions upon billions of Euro and undoing the very successful lockdown by importing cases.

We can’t just not do the Cead Mile Failte to a bunch of Texan, Mancunian, London, New York or whatever relatives, who probably haven’t spoken to you in 4 years, but we’ve just spent 6 weeks being unable to even say hello to your auntie Pat who’s been diligently living on her own in her 80s only contacting people by phone and FaceTime, you can’t call into a neighbour, go to the gym or have a pint.

The main thing is we can’t be seen to be unfriendly to tourists, even if it costs us billions and kills us (literally).

Seems we’re gluttons for punishment.

is_that_so

caveat emptor wrote: »

That was one state. The others have had a normal life for a very long time. We have had a **** year. These decisions will mean we will have a **** year next year too.

Why are you so enamoured with "living with the virus"? Do you like staying home and not being able to see friends and family. Do you like your kids not being able to play with their friends.

I'm also enamoured of personal responsibility and caution in the face of this. Not everyone has shown that. I agree on the need to see family for all of us but that too is tied to personal responsibility. I'm more optimistic about 2021 and see most of this behind us by summer.

nofools

is_that_so wrote: »

Almost all approaches have "failed", it's managing it until we get vaccines. They've all been tweaking their responses. Unlike us, shutting down is a last resort rather than a first choice but many of them have masks everywhere as a result. It's really the testing regime that's key anyway. There will be vaccines, in the plural next year. Another 2-3 candidates should report data this month.

"We are all out of options, we have tried literally everything (except what we know works)."

Ideology over reality from the post above is a very good summary of the problem here.

fly_agaric

is_that_so wrote: »

Almost all approaches have "failed", it's managing it until we get vaccines. They've all been tweaking their responses. Unlike us, shutting down is a last resort rather than a first choice but many of them have masks everywhere as a result. It's really the testing regime that's key anyway. There will be vaccines, in the plural next year. Another 2-3 candidates should report data this month.

I think that is a bit unfair to the govt. here.
They were very cautious I admit because our health service isn't that good and is in a fragile state with waiting lists etc. after spring (edit: and fear of publically going against NPHET advice and being blamed for a disaster afterwards also). The other European countries only got a few weeks before they were bringing in new restrictions too.

On the vaccine(s) plural, as said a limiting factor is how quickly HSE can get it distributed to the public. I think that will take them several months (edit at least) once enough is available. It is a huge logistical exercise & pretty unprecedented for the health service I'd think. It is also unknowable how big an effect anti vax ideology will have on uptake. Depressingly I expect there'll be huge social media efforts run to discredit the vaccines and sow FUD once they becomes available. Hopefully people will ignore it.

is_that_so

fly_agaric wrote: »

I think that is a bit unfair to the govt. here.
They were very cautious I admit because our health service isn't that good and is in a fragile state with waiting lists etc. after spring. The other European countries only got a few weeks before they were bringing in new restrictions too.

On the vaccine(s) plural, as said a limiting factor is how quickly HSE can get it distributed to the public. I think that will take them several months once enough is available. It is also unknowable how big an effect anti vax ideology will have on uptake. Depressingly I expect there'll be huge social media efforts run to discredit the vaccines and sow FUD once they becomes available. Hopefully people will ignore it.

It's a contrast to other counties. We got Level 5, they have curfews. Ultimately the cases will decline through both approaches because of the reduced contacts.
The punitive restrictions the virus brings should be enough for most people to be open to a vaccine.

3xh

fly_agaric wrote: »

It is also unknowable how big an effect anti vax ideology will have on uptake. Depressingly I expect there'll be huge social media efforts run to discredit the vaccines and sow FUD once they becomes available. Hopefully people will ignore it.

And conversely, there’ll be a huge social media effort by the WHO, HSE, ECDC, to espouse the benefits and minuscule dangers of the vaccine.

There’s actually a Covid vaccine plan recently drafted by the European Commission addressing exactly this. It works both ways. People are right to be cautious, probing and sceptical of how all this Covid, lockdown, vaccine came about.

fly_agaric

is_that_so wrote: »

It's a contrast to other counties. We got Level 5, they have curfews. Ultimately the cases will decline through both approaches because of the reduced contacts.

I don't know enough about all the other EU/European countries to compare our level 5 to what they are doing and which is better/worse let alone how strictly authorities are enforcing the measures. On a broad level they are enforcing closures of businesses where people congregate and telling people to avoid meeting people the way they would normally. It is fairly drastic & restrictive compared to "normality" even if doesn't match our level 5 exactly (hence my calling it a "failure").

is_that_so wrote: »

The punitive restrictions the virus brings should be enough for most people to be open to a vaccine.

Yeah that is what I'd hope also.

fly_agaric

3xh wrote: »

And conversely, there’ll be a huge social media effort by the WHO, HSE, ECDC, to espouse the benefits and minuscule dangers of the vaccine.

As it should be.

3xh wrote: »

It works both ways. People are right to be cautious, probing and sceptical of how all this Covid, lockdown, vaccine came about.

I don't think it does work both ways. At some point you have to trust in experts over the fruits of your own research into the matter or what is curated for your personal bubble on social media.

3xh

fly_agaric wrote: »

As it should be.



I don't think it does work both ways. At some point you have to trust in experts over the fruits of your own research into the matter or what is curated for your personal bubble on social media.

Here’s hoping any negative long term effects of these multiple vaccines don’t take 7 years to be redressed and admitted to, so.

nofools

3xh wrote: »

Here’s hoping any negative long term effects of these multiple vaccines don’t take 7 years to be redressed and admitted to, so.

I think it is important to keep an open mind about it.

Don't get prematurely into the anti vax conspiracies with all these fears of the new world order but don't blindly trust those with commercial or political interests in rushing things either.

3xh

nofools wrote: »

I think it is important to keep an open mind about it.

Don't get prematurely into the anti vax conspiracies with all these fears of the new world order but don't blindly trust those with commercial or political interests in rushing things either.

I agree totally.

My point is that by facilitating unquestioned roll-out, Etc of these vaccines by taking one just to conform to society, you can’t say ‘stop, take it out,’ after it’s done any (potential) damage.

The current figures we see every day from NPHET are the very figures being used to justify a vaccine.

Those figures are simply massaged, erroneous even, in my view. I.e. a Covid death is anyone dying with Covid.

A hospitalisation is anybody in hospital with Covid, even if they entered hospital primarily with a non Covid issue.

And lastly, as seen today in one of the Covid threads here, it appears Covid free patients are contracting Covid in hospital and then being added to the ‘increasing’ hospitalisation figure further justifying lockdown and eventual vaccinations.

This is why I’m sceptical. It’s not anti-Vax.

ShineOn7

Covid-19: All travellers into State will have to provide negative PCR test

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/covid-19-all-travellers-into-state-will-have-to-provide-negative-pcr-test-1.4450888

Thread started: almost 7 months ago

There's something genuinely wrong with us as a nation

Strumms

3xh wrote: »

I agree totally.

My point is that by facilitating unquestioned roll-out, Etc of these vaccines by taking one just to conform to society, you can’t say ‘stop, take it out,’ after it’s done any (potential) damage.

The current figures we see every day from NPHET are the very figures being used to justify a vaccine.

Those figures are simply massaged, erroneous even, in my view. I.e. a Covid death is anyone dying with Covid.

A hospitalisation is anybody in hospital with Covid, even if they entered hospital primarily with a non Covid issue.

And lastly, as seen today in one of the Covid threads here, it appears Covid free patients are contracting Covid in hospital and then being added to the ‘increasing’ hospitalisation figure further justifying lockdown and eventual vaccinations.

This is why I’m sceptical. It’s not anti-Vax.

If you go in to a hospital for a hip replacement operation... but you get attacked by a deranged lunatic, stabbed to death...you’ve been stabbed to death, murder. You haven’t died ‘with’ stab wounds you’ve died because you were stabbed, murdered.

If a person has cancer, regardless of the prognosis... if they get covid and die because of contracting covid, covid is why they are dead....not cancer.

A patient can have say Alzheimer’s disease, no cure, it’s fatal... but if they develop terminal cancer before Alzheimer’s kills them... then cancer killed them..

I don’t get this weird want by some to ignore the classification of deaths and attribute a covid death to other conditions...it’s weird.

saabsaab

As I said before pointless trying to lock down the country to eliminate the virus but importing new cases. Like trying to empty the bath but leaving the taps still running

saabsaab

Strumms wrote: »

If you go in to a hospital for a hip replacement operation... but you get attacked by a deranged lunatic, stabbed to death...you’ve been stabbed to death, murder. You haven’t died ‘with’ stab wounds you’ve died because you were stabbed, murdered.

If a person has cancer, regardless of the prognosis... if they get covid and die because of contracting covid, covid is why they are dead....not cancer.

A patient can have say Alzheimer’s disease, no cure, it’s fatal... but if they develop terminal cancer before Alzheimer’s kills them... then cancer killed them..

I don’t get this weird want by some to ignore the classification of deaths and attribute a covid death to other conditions...it’s weird.

Totally agree. As i say would you prefer to die with Covid or of Covid?

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

As I said before pointless trying to lock down the country to eliminate the virus but importing new cases. Like trying to empty the bath but leaving the taps still running

Also pointless closing the stable door after all the horses have bolted?

Tenzor07

saabsaab wrote: »

Totally agree. As i say would you prefer to die with Covid or of Covid?

Neither, thanks!

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Also pointless closing the stable door after all the horses have bolted?

No point in sailing through pack ice at full speed.