Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

faceman

Danno wrote: »

Wrong! All cases are down to travel, the ~200,000 detected cases and the ~600,000 we didn't test for.

The virus did not spontaneously appear in Ireland, it did in Wuhan.

While Lockdown 1 was totally the correct thing to do and was proven a great success (north of a thousand detected cases a day in April, down to less than ten per day in mid-June to mid-July) from that point forward, every resurgence of the virus is totally the fault of international travel.

Expecting people to self-isolate is utter folly and has been proven as such because the numbers rebounded following large travelling events such as holidays to Spain and others in the Summer (60%+ cases related to a Spanish strain) and Christmas (60%+ cases related a UK strain).

Whether those responsible were Irish residents going to and returning from infected regions, Brazilians coming in or whatever, the virus doesn't give two hoots who it is when it's hitching a free plane ride into Dublin Airport, Rosslare Europort, the M1 Dublin-Belfast Motorway or whatever point of entry you choose.

The fact is we have infections pouring in over the border and very little being done to address that. We have infections washing through our community but our Government seem intent on crushing that.

But you cannot do one without the other. This is what gets people's back up. We're being crushed, the international traveller is not.

The time is long overdue to fix it. Strict border controls now. Clean up residual virus in the community. Leave the borders closed and open up Irish society and let us live and try to save some semblance of an economy and society.

I'm not willing to go through further lockdowns so Paddy Murphy can jet off to Lanzarote or so Pablo can go home for a visit and come back again. Stuff them. :mad:

Come on Danno, you’re more clever than that. Let’s not be stupid about this. Of course if arrived through travel. But if 1,000 people have it right now, it wasn’t 1,000 people who brought it on a plane. It was merely a few people who at the time weren’t required to get tested prior to arrival

So if it’s only a small number who arrived with it on boat or plane or from the north, how did the spread in Ireland?

Because people didn’t follow the rules. Went to houses, went to packed pubs and restaurants, didn’t wear masks. Those numbers are way higher than those who didn’t self isolate on the return from travel. (And fook those who didn’t self isolate too)

People need to be honest here. Blaming travel doesn’t alleviate responsibility and accountability

If people were truly honest, the amount of people who genuinely followed the rules and guidelines this last year is probably a tiny statistic

We now have stricter rules around travel

But no new rules around all of the other major holes domestically. My hospital sources has told me that what’s not being discussed in the media is that the virus rate is not coming down fast enough even though Ireland has been in level 5 for a month.

It ain’t travel that’s keeping the numbers high. But ya know, get the hysteria to the airport to distract from bigger issues

Agree with you about repeated lockdowns and unnecessary holidays.

But again to point out, being part of the EU has meant not everyone lives and works in just Ireland, and not everyone has their family and network in Ireland. Closing borders for what would be a period of years is unrealistic

acequion

faceman wrote: »

But again to point out, being part of the EU has meant not everyone lives and works in just Ireland, and not everyone has their family and network in Ireland. Closing borders for what would be a period of years is unrealistic

That 100% It is something that should be top in every argument but unfortunately it's something that everybody self sufficient within Ireland has conveniently forgotten. It's as if the past 50 years of openness, connectivity and EU membership have literally disappeared overnight and with it all the ties forged in other countries.

Yes we're in a pandemic, yes this virus is dangerous and yes travel needs to be restricted. But those proposing an indefinite outright ban on travel are either lacking empathy or haven't properly thought it through.

gozunda

faceman wrote: »

Come on Danno, you’re more clever than that. Let’s not be stupid about this. Of course if arrived through travel. But if 1,000 people have it right now, it wasn’t 1,000 people who brought it on a plane. It was merely a few people who at the time weren’t required to get tested prior to arrival

So if it’s only a small number who arrived with it on boat or plane or from the north, how did the spread in Ireland?

Because people didn’t follow the rules. Went to houses, went to packed pubs and restaurants, didn’t wear masks. Those numbers are way higher than those who didn’t self isolate on the return from travel. (And fook those who didn’t self isolate too)

People need to be honest here. Blaming travel doesn’t alleviate responsibility and accountability

If people were truly honest, the amount of people who genuinely followed the rules and guidelines this last year is probably a tiny statistic

We now have stricter rules around travel

But no new rules around all of the other major holes domestically. My hospital sources has told me that what’s not being discussed in the media is that the virus rate is not coming down fast enough even though Ireland has been in level 5 for a month.

It ain’t travel that’s keeping the numbers high. But ya know, get the hysteria to the airport to distract from bigger issues

Agree with you about repeated lockdowns and unnecessary holidays.

But again to point out, being part of the EU has meant not everyone lives and works in just Ireland, and not everyone has their family and network in Ireland. Closing borders for what would be a period of years is unrealistic

It may not be "keeping them high" but it sure as hell is what primed our intial wave of infection. Ditto the more recent Uk and Spanish Covid varients.

Top that with the much higher rate of infection even with level 5 restrictions and we're now back to where we started.

It's simply unfeasible to continue to allow people to come and go without full quarantine and a massive crackdown on eejits who absolutely must have their holidays. Australia* and New Zealand has implemented a quota system to allow those who need to travel do so. If they can do it we can come up with some workable solution to allow our internal restrictions to at least be relaxed on a more permanent basis.


*https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/news-and-updates/limits-passenger-flights-australia

lawrencesummers

faceman wrote: »

Come on Danno, you’re more clever than that. Let’s not be stupid about this. Of course if arrived through travel. But if 1,000 people have it right now, it wasn’t 1,000 people who brought it on a plane. It was merely a few people who at the time weren’t required to get tested prior to arrival

So if it’s only a small number who arrived with it on boat or plane or from the north, how did the spread in Ireland?

Because people didn’t follow the rules. Went to houses, went to packed pubs and restaurants, didn’t wear masks. Those numbers are way higher than those who didn’t self isolate on the return from travel. (And fook those who didn’t self isolate too)

People need to be honest here. Blaming travel doesn’t alleviate responsibility and accountability

If people were truly honest, the amount of people who genuinely followed the rules and guidelines this last year is probably a tiny statistic

We now have stricter rules around travel

But no new rules around all of the other major holes domestically. My hospital sources has told me that what’s not being discussed in the media is that the virus rate is not coming down fast enough even though Ireland has been in level 5 for a month.

It ain’t travel that’s keeping the numbers high. But ya know, get the hysteria to the airport to distract from bigger issues

Agree with you about repeated lockdowns and unnecessary holidays.

But again to point out, being part of the EU has meant not everyone lives and works in just Ireland, and not everyone has their family and network in Ireland. Closing borders for what would be a period of years is unrealistic

In that paragraph on where people are acquiring infection you have not mentioned any of the places where most infection has occurred, hospitals, nursing homes, workplaces.

Nobody is saying restrictions on travel is going to solve everything, but it’s a large piece of the jigsaw that has been ignored up until now.

faceman

gozunda wrote: »

It may not be "keeping them high" but it sure as hell is what primed our intial wave of infection. Ditto the more recent Uk and Spanish Covid varients.

Top that with the much higher rate of infection even with level 5 restrictions and we're now back to where we started.

It's simply unfeasible to continue to allow people to come and go without full quarantine and a massive crackdown on eejits who absolutely must have their holidays. Australia* and New Zealand has implemented a quota system to allow those who need to travel do so. If they can do it we can come up with some workable solution to allow our internal restrictions to at least be relaxed on a more permanent basis.


*https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/news-and-updates/limits-passenger-flights-australia

We're back to where we started primarily because:

* The nation lost its marbles in December and going nuts socially,
* Ireland opened too quickly when cases were still high
* Cases were still high during the last lockdown. No one has scrutinised that, but ultimately its down to a lack of adherence to restrictions by the public.

You can spin the travel narrative anyway you want, but you cant dispute the stats that support the above, available from the government website and as referenced by NPHET. Stats on travel are also available.

NPHET have never pushed a Zero Covid strategy. People cant pick and choose when to support NPHET when they like. Alan Kelly is a great example. He has been at the forefront of calling from a close the airports strategy. The same Alan Kelly who lambasted NPHET and the government last year to the media when they wouldn't allow spectators at sports fixtures.

And once again with the pointless Australia and New Zealand references. Are either of those countries part of a similar system like the EU that has promoted free movement of labour and people for decades? You cant just flip a switch and turn that off. NPHET knows this, the EU knows this, even the hardline pro lockdown governments know this. A meeting with EU members was held over a week ago and one of the topics on the agenda was a travel ban intra-EU. The media jumped on it and even MM teased it was coming. It didn't and isn't. It could come in the future if things dont improve, but no one is jumping on it.

There comes a point gozunda where you have to look beyond the Prime Time tabloid nonsense, the media headlines and start to look at all sides of this.

The glaringly obvious issue for Ireland that other EU nations dont have to worry about to the same degree is closing the republic's border won't keep the virus out. An all island approach won't keep the virus out. Theres no way the mythical 2 island approach is going to lock both countries in unison with widespread sharing of data. Its not going to happen

So we can have a free for all on travel and we cant lock everything down. So what can we do?

Well we have already started that. (at last) I guarantee you that we are going to see a dramatic shift in the coming weeks on the importation of cases. But my bigger hunch is that cases in Ireland will remain stubbornly high, just like they are now, a month into a level 5 lockdown.

At that point, where will the gun be pointed?

faceman

lawrencesummers wrote: »

In that paragraph on where people are acquiring infection you have not mentioned any of the places where most infection has occurred, hospitals, nursing homes, workplaces.

Nobody is saying restrictions on travel is going to solve everything, but it’s a large piece of the jigsaw that has been ignored up until now.

Finally we agree wholeheartedly on something! I have some heart wrenching stories about disasters in care homes and hospitals. Hospitals and care homes aren't a safe place to be at the moment.

The workplace issue is a problem. Many people feel pressure from employers to be in their place of work. There was that court case recently where a woman took a case because her employer wouldnt let her work from home. She won. Yet no warning shots have been fired by the government to employers.

There's probably also a cohort of people going to the office needlessly to break the monotony or get away from domestic pressures.

Danno

acequion wrote: »

Yes we're in a pandemic, yes this virus is dangerous and yes travel needs to be restricted. But those proposing an indefinite outright ban on travel are either lacking empathy or haven't properly thought it through.

How about this for empathy.

A funeral a couple of months back. Two family members from UK and US flew in and went to the funeral. Infected lots of people who attended the funeral. At least one sadly died afterwards.

But, hur hur empathy, hur hur EU open borders. Stuff the EU on this insistence. Germany and others have closed borders. why is yes-man Ireland unwilling or unable to do so? Are we not a sovereign nation anymore?

Danno

faceman wrote: »

We're back to where we started primarily because:

* The nation lost its marbles in December and going nuts socially with UK Variant infections flowing in over our borders,
* Ireland opened too quickly when cases were still high owing to cases still circulating from Summer holidays to Spain and others
* Cases were still high during the last lockdown. No one has scrutinised that, but ultimately its down to a lack of adherence to restrictions by the public who are sick to the teeth of lockdowns and after getting cases down under ten per day after lockdown 1 have said "fcuk it" couldn't be ar$ed with the government and international travellers pi$$ing down our collective backs and telling us we're sweating.

Fixed your post.

Danno

It all boils down to this:

* Irish people collectively have PROVEN that we can pretty much eradicate this virus. Proof - less than ten cases per day between mid-June and mid-July.

* International travellers have PROVEN that they cannot be trusted to not re-introduce the virus in to our community. Proof - following summer holidays, over 60% of cases were directly linked to Spain; over 60% of cases directly linked to UK variant post Christmas.

Denying that takes some mental gymnastics.

gozunda

faceman wrote: »

We're back to where we started primarily because:
* The nation lost its marbles in December and going nuts socially,
* Ireland opened too quickly when cases were still high
* Cases were still high during the last lockdown. No one has scrutinised that, but ultimately its down to a lack of adherence to restrictions by the public.You can spin the travel narrative anyway you want, but you cant dispute the stats that support the above, available from the government website and as referenced by NPHET. Stats on travel are also available.NPHET have never pushed a Zero Covid strategy. People cant pick and choose when to support NPHET when they like. Alan Kelly is a great example. He has been at the forefront of calling from a close the airports strategy. The same Alan Kelly who lambasted NPHET and the government last year to the media when they wouldn't allow spectators at sports fixtures.And once again with the pointless Australia and New Zealand references. Are either of those countries part of a similar system like the EU that has promoted free movement of labour and people for decades? You cant just flip a switch and turn that off. NPHET knows this, the EU knows this, even the hardline pro lockdown governments know this. A meeting with EU members was held over a week ago and one of the topics on the agenda was a travel ban intra-EU. The media jumped on it and even MM teased it was coming. It didn't and isn't. It could come in the future if things dont improve, but no one is jumping on it.There comes a point gozunda where you have to look beyond the Prime Time tabloid nonsense, the media headlines and start to look at all sides of this. The glaringly obvious issue for Ireland that other EU nations dont have to worry about to the same degree is closing the republic's border won't keep the virus out. An all island approach won't keep the virus out. Theres no way the mythical 2 island approach is going to lock both countries in unison with widespread sharing of data. Its not going to happen
So we can have a free for all on travel and we cant lock everything down. So what can we do?
Well we have already started that. (at last) I guarantee you that we are going to see a dramatic shift in the coming weeks on the importation of cases. But my bigger hunch is that cases in Ireland will remain stubbornly high, just like they are now, a month into a level 5 lockdown.

At that point, where will the gun be pointed?

Do you honestly believe that Ireland has any less or more eejits ignoring restrictions than say New Zealand or god forbid Australia?

Both countries have faced the same dilemma and dealt with it by controlling their borders to reduce tye risk of new outbreaks of infection.

And no I don't take PrimeTime as an inspiration btw. I questioned why for flight restrictions / border controls were not being implemented in this thread back in March when we had people swaning back and forth to Italy for their absolutely essential skiing trips etc

And at this stage no we're not talking 'zero covid strategy'. The main issue now lies in getting rates of infection right down so we can start to reduce our own internal restrictions. And an important part of that is stopping the world and his brother casually increasing rates of infection here.

New Zealand did this. Australia is enroute to doing the same. How? By putting in proper controls on the movement of people and using a quota systems and keeing an eye on the much bigger picture.

But most certainly not by putting or hands in the air and wailing 'sure we can't do that'/ 'that's not possible' / 'it wouldn't work' ...

ginoginelli

And to add insult to injury people without a pcr test are still being let into the country. They are let go and apparently a file is sent to the dpp - which can take months or e en years to even process. At that stage the damage is done, and many who were just visiting will have left the country.

It's a complete shambles.

The goverment are very intentionally trying to give the appearance they are doing something when in reality they are doing **** all.

Daily flights still from Tenerife, Portugal (highest rate in the world at the moment) and all over the world.

Who do they think they are kidding?

ninebeanrows

Danno your posting is so blinkered and selfish in its own right.

It is disappointing to see.

The virus cannot be stamped out at this stage, it can be kept at very low levels by restrictions. Even if travel is outlawed out of this island , a significant relaxation of restrictions will result in the virus flaring up as super spreader events will occur. The trickle of virus that comes through the airport is really so insignificant at this stage.

If we actually want to drive the virus out to pretty much zero youd need around 4 months stay at home order and then keep the borders sealed.

A lockdown far more restrictive than the current one would be required.

We are all fed up but you have to think how awful the commentary at the moment is for foreign nationals who have lived in this country for decades or for people with families abroad even in the UK.

If what was proposed could actually work it would be great and bearable for most but it will not work without 4 months of stay at home order to stamp out every flicker of the virus in the community and our hospitals...infact could take up to a year.

ninebeanrows

Danno wrote: »

It all boils down to this:

* Irish people collectively have PROVEN that we can pretty much eradicate this virus. Proof - less than ten cases per day between mid-June and mid-July.

* International travellers have PROVEN that they cannot be trusted to not re-introduce the virus in to our community. Proof - following summer holidays, over 60% of cases were directly linked to Spain; over 60% of cases directly linked to UK variant post Christmas.

Denying that takes some mental gymnastics.

This type of thing makes my blood boil.

Just because the Spanish variant was dominant in late summer does not mean international travel drove the virus spread!!! It meant it came in and as dominant replaced the other type of virus, the other type of virus would still have been around somewhere and continued to spread, 60% related to travel to Spain is just an untrue statement.

faceman

Danno wrote: »

It all boils down to this:

* Irish people collectively have PROVEN that we can pretty much eradicate this virus. Proof - less than ten cases per day between mid-June and mid-July.

* International travellers have PROVEN that they cannot be trusted to not re-introduce the virus in to our community. Proof - following summer holidays, over 60% of cases were directly linked to Spain; over 60% of cases directly linked to UK variant post Christmas.

Denying that takes some mental gymnastics.

I think we will have to leave it there, we’re never going to see eye to eye on this, and you’ve now segregated people into “Irish” and “international”.

I respect the difference of opinion people have but I have to draw a line with where this is heading.

lawrencesummers

Travel might not be as big a problem as some people think, and it might be a bigger problem than other people think.


But the point is that we don't have ANY accurate data to say if it is or not on it because the Government has never sought to collect any.


What is for certain is that the limiting of travel to essential and pre tested persons ONLY is an important piece of the puzzle in combatting the virus.

What is for certain is that the government have been negligent in its implementation of travel restrictions and testing.

Danno

faceman wrote: »

I think we will have to leave it there, we’re never going to see eye to eye on this, and you’ve now segregated people into “Irish” and “international”.

I respect the difference of opinion people have but I have to draw a line with where this is heading.

It won't be long before the "R" card will be pulled I guess, but let me spare your blushes. Irish residents leaving the country and returning are international travellers, the hint here is leaving this nation and travelling to another nation.

Danno

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

This type of thing makes my blood boil.

Just because the Spanish variant was dominant in late summer does not mean international travel drove the virus spread!!! It meant it came in and as dominant replaced the other type of virus, the other type of virus would still have been around somewhere and continued to spread, 60% related to travel to Spain is just an untrue statement.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I listen to the science on this one: https://www.newstalk.com/news/coronavirus-60-irish-cases-traced-one-strain-spain-1099162

Danno

faceman wrote: »

I think we will have to leave it there, we’re never going to see eye to eye on this

That is perfectly fine.

You think its morally right for me, my neighbours and my wider community to stay restricted in level 5 lockdown for a long time to come so those who wish to travel in and out of the country can continue do so with little restriction.
The right for some to travel trumps the right for others to live some semblance of a normal life, have I got that right?

mikhail

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

This type of thing makes my blood boil.

Just because the Spanish variant was dominant in late summer does not mean international travel drove the virus spread!!! It meant it came in and as dominant replaced the other type of virus, the other type of virus would still have been around somewhere and continued to spread, 60% related to travel to Spain is just an untrue statement.

You think everyone who caught that strain would just have caught another instead? That's some magical thinking there. Your argument applies in a situation where viruses are rampant, and not even slightly where we have a dozen or so cases a day.

Danno

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

If we actually want to drive the virus out to pretty much zero youd need around 4 months stay at home order and then keep the borders sealed.

There is NO point in lockdowns if the borders are not sealed.

I'm all for plan B either - let her rip at this stage if it means keeping the open borders brigade happy, just let the fallout be on their shoulders.

The Irish resident has played a blinder in lockdown 1. We've done our part. Game over now.

Danno

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

This type of thing makes my blood boil.

Good, that's the purpose of debate, and the first to loose their cool are usually those who have lost the argument.

Everything I have said has been proven. I have said nothing that cannot be backed up by statements made by the scientific community.

Listen to the science.

faceman

Danno wrote: »

That is perfectly fine.

You think its morally right for me, my neighbours and my wider community to stay restricted in level 5 lockdown for a long time to come so those who wish to travel in and out of the country can continue do so with little restriction.
The right for some to travel trumps the right for others to live some semblance of a normal life, have I got that right?

Nowhere have I said that. This is getting pathetic Danno.

lawrencesummers

Mod fight.

For Forks Sake

Danno wrote: »

It all boils down to this:

* Irish people collectively have PROVEN that we can pretty much eradicate this virus. Proof - less than ten cases per day between mid-June and mid-July.

* International travellers have PROVEN that they cannot be trusted to not re-introduce the virus in to our community. Proof - following summer holidays, over 60% of cases were directly linked to Spain; over 60% of cases directly linked to UK variant post Christmas.

Denying that takes some mental gymnastics.

The vast majority of those were Irish people travelling home to see mammy and daddy and go on the p1ss against all advice to the contrary, so you can park the "foreigners bad" schtick

acequion

Danno wrote: »

Good, that's the purpose of debate, and the first to loose their cool are usually those who have lost the argument.

Everything I have said has been proven. I have said nothing that cannot be backed up by statements made by the scientific community.

Listen to the science.

Except you have completely forgotten our EU membership and the facts that thousands in Ireland, both Irish and foreign are not self sufficient within Ireland alone. Or perhaps you haven't forgotten, perhaps you just don't care about those people and don't care about EU membership and all it entails. Your posts are very extreme in one direction so there really isn't much point in trying to debate with you.

Lastly, I will say that no other EU country is implementing what you suggest. Short term closures as part of wider lockdown restrictions, yes. But if I understand correctly you advocate going much further than that.

mohawk

gozunda wrote: »

It may not be "keeping them high" but it sure as hell is what primed our intial wave of infection. Ditto the more recent Uk and Spanish Covid varients.

Top that with the much higher rate of infection even with level 5 restrictions and we're now back to where we started.

It's simply unfeasible to continue to allow people to come and go without full quarantine and a massive crackdown on eejits who absolutely must have their holidays. Australia* and New Zealand has implemented a quota system to allow those who need to travel do so. If they can do it we can come up with some workable solution to allow our internal restrictions to at least be relaxed on a more permanent basis.


*https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/news-and-updates/limits-passenger-flights-australia

Unchecked travel leaves you wide open to a strain that is either vaccine resistant, more virulent, higher transmission etc.

Then you have a population restricted to 5km of their homes. In that context I don’t think it’s justified to have people going in and out for holidays.

People like Hauliers have to come and go and there is probably ways of reducing risk of them bringing in new strains.

gozunda

acequion wrote: »

Except you have completely forgotten our EU membership and the facts that thousands in Ireland, both Irish and foreign are not self sufficient within Ireland alone. Or perhaps you haven't forgotten, perhaps you just don't care about those people and don't care about EU membership and all it entails. Your posts are very extreme in one direction so there really isn't much point in trying to debate with you.

Lastly, I will say that no other EU country is implementing what you suggest. Short term closures as part of wider lockdown restrictions, yes. But if I understand correctly you advocate going much further than that.

No country in the world is totally self sufficient. Doesn't mean restrictions should not be applied to stop unnecessary movement in and out of the state and potentially allow internal restrictions to be reduced.

More importantly watch this space as it looks like Germany is moving towards restricting cross border travel and reducing air travel to Germany to more or less zero

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-mulls-complete-air-travel-ban-to-deal-with-virus-powder-keg-1.4468546

Hopefully this will enable the rest of the EU to do so for at least the immediate future and until we can get things properly under control.

Spanish Eyes

Stay at home FGS unless your travel is absolutely unavoidable.

This virus didn't circumnavigate the world because people stayed at home did it? There is no argument that will convince me otherwise.

Malcomex

2 things we can say with certainty

The govt. is acting too late with travel restrictions

Without blanket restrictions the virus and it's variant will enter the country

acequion

gozunda wrote: »

No country in the world is totally self sufficient. Doesn't mean restrictions should not be applied to stop unnecessary movement in and out of the state and potentially allow internal restrictions to be reduced.

More importantly watch this space as it looks like Germany is moving towards restricting cross border travel and reducing air travel to Germany to more or less zero

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-mulls-complete-air-travel-ban-to-deal-with-virus-powder-keg-1.4468546

Hopefully this will enable the rest of the EU to do so for at least the immediate future and until we can get things properly under control.

Look you cannot for one minute compare the self sufficiency levels of Australia and NZ with the EU countries where there is huge intertwining on so many levels. Also, Germany is talking about a ban from countries where the new strains are widespread ie ourselves, also Portugal, not every EU country.

As I said to another poster, I find your stance very extreme and you don't seem to want to look at this from any other angle. That is your entitlement just as it's mine not to want to engage with such an extreme perspective. So let's agree to disagree and leave it there. I won't be replying again.