Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

expectationlost

maestroamado wrote: »

I travelled out and returned out and back aroun this exact time so no problem there, i think the rule at the time was stay in County, i think if carrying a boarding pass was good enough reason, if i was stopped on route i would have went home if it was confirmed i need do this.
I think the only possible problem in this instance be in the actual school and distance which i expect ok.
Great free publicity...

so you didn't travel for a 12 week course that was likely to be impeded by further shutdowns of education etc

caveat emptor

faceman wrote: »

3? That’s not bad given there are 4,000 variants of Covid.

There's a distinction to be made. Not all variants are variants of concern.

Saying "there's thousands of variants" misses the point.

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

There's a distinction to be made. Not all variants are variants of concern.

Saying "there's thousands of variants" misses the point.

It doesn’t miss the point. There will always be variants of concern among the thousands that appear. and this will be the case for years. And as vaccinations progress, variants are likely to be more transmissible or more infectious as they are the ones that are still able to spread.

So when do you stop going on about them? When is this hotel quarantine, that some people want, supposed to be lifted? Australias building of new quarantine facilities suggests that they are going to restrict travel for the long haul.

Ryan and Staines were on the radio this week suggesting that the vaccines won’t even work. We all know that is BS, but if we let people like with those kind of views drive a mandatory quarantine agenda, we would be trapped in Ireland, unable to travel, for years.

This is endemic and we have to live with it. Which does involve living with ongoing transmission and unfortunately some deaths. But we have to start getting on with things, as the rest of Europe is coming to terms with. Including travel

saabsaab

Deleted User wrote: »

It doesn’t miss the point. There will always be variants of concern among the thousands that appear. and this will be the case for years. And as vaccinations progress, variants are likely to be more transmissible or more infectious as they are the ones that are still able to spread.

So when do you stop going on about them? When is this hotel quarantine, that some people want, supposed to be lifted? Australias building of new quarantine facilities suggests that they are going to restrict travel for the long haul.

Ryan and Staines were on the radio this week suggesting that the vaccines won’t even work. We all know that is BS, but if we let people like with those kind of views drive a mandatory quarantine agenda, we would be trapped in Ireland, unable to travel, for years.

This is endemic and we have to live with it. Which does involve living with ongoing transmission and unfortunately some deaths. But we have to start getting on with things, as the rest of Europe is coming to terms with. Including travel

Until the vaccines are rolled out further travel from abroad should be severely restricted. How many of the aforementioned 4,000 variants do you want to arrive here?

maestroamado

expectationlost wrote: »

so you didn't travel for a 12 week course that was likely to be impeded by further shutdowns of education etc

How would people know what was going to happen in 12 weeks or indeed the person running the school.
Its up to powers to make rules and advise.
Personally i did not mind the relax approach to rules as it suited me at the time.
I am pretty careful to fallow the rules but i do beliebve they need be clearly set out and need to be updated daily...

saabsaab

saabsaab wrote: »

Until the vaccines are rolled out further travel from abroad should be severely restricted. How many of the aforementioned 4,000 variants do you want to arrive here?

But according to the zero Coviders like Staines the vaccines won’t be effective on new variants, so we have to stay closed off to the world forever, right? What’s the endgame?

httpete

Deleted User wrote: »

It doesn’t miss the point. There will always be variants of concern among the thousands that appear. and this will be the case for years. And as vaccinations progress, variants are likely to be more transmissible or more infectious as they are the ones that are still able to spread.

So when do you stop going on about them? When is this hotel quarantine, that some people want, supposed to be lifted? Australias building of new quarantine facilities suggests that they are going to restrict travel for the long haul.

Ryan and Staines were on the radio this week suggesting that the vaccines won’t even work. We all know that is BS, but if we let people like with those kind of views drive a mandatory quarantine agenda, we would be trapped in Ireland, unable to travel, for years.

This is endemic and we have to live with it. Which does involve living with ongoing transmission and unfortunately some deaths. But we have to start getting on with things, as the rest of Europe is coming to terms with. Including travel

How did living with it go last year? Every country was in an out of lockdown, us more than anyone. I noticed all the people against lockdown were extremely quiet in January when we were up to 8000 cases a day. People are angry and calling to open up now, what do you think happens then when we go back up to several thousand new cases a day and the country is completely f*cked all over again? Then we either go back into an even longer lockdown or we just let the virus run free completely. While there might be an argument for letting it run free, the government and nphet will never consider that option so that only leaves lockdown.

The only hope is to get the numbers low and keep them low. Not a full on zero Covid because that seems unattainable now, but low enough that the virus can be managed with testing and contract tracing. That's not possible when we have 700 daily cases.

If we had the mandatory quarantine in place last year the numbers travelling into the country at Xmas (and even in the months before Xmas) would have been miniscule and we wouldn't be in the middle of a 6 month lockdown that is due to the British variant which was brought into the country at Xmas and makes up 90% of cases now. The numbers would be so low that we would probably be at level 2 now and everything would be open maybe even the pubs.

Now there is some light at the end of the tunnel with the vaccines, but if we import a variant that the vaccines have very low efficiency against then we are back to square one. We will have made the same mistake as we did at Xmas by underestimating the dangers posed by variants.

This British variant was bad enough to put us into the longest lockdown in the world. It would be foolish to make the same mistake again, even moreso with variants that are vaccine resistant. If a vaccine resistant variant took hold in this country we would be well and truly f*cked. You can say that 'suggesting that the vaccines won’t even work is BS' all you like, I'm sure last December you would have thought it was BS if someone told you we would be spending the first 6-7 months of 2021 in lockdown. People need to start accounting for the unpredictability of this virus.

If the effects of the virus and existing/future variants is going to be present for 5-10 years, I would sooner spend those years in a country that is able to stay fully open due to the ability to maintain extremely low numbers because of mandatory quarantine at the airports/ports, than in a country that allows for quarantine-free travel but has to lock down 9 months of the year because the numbers are never brought low enough to manage. If we had mandatory quarantine from the start of the pandemic, even if not a full zero Covid, we would have had a massive reduction in numbers and deaths and practically everything would be open.

josip

caveat emptor wrote: »

There's a distinction to be made. Not all variants are variants of concern.

Saying "there's thousands of variants" misses the point.

Speak for yourself.

I'm sure NPHET are {somewhat,very, considerably, extremely, moderately} concerned about them all.

httpete

httpete wrote: »

If the effects of the virus and existing/future variants is going to be present for 5-10 years, I would sooner spend those years in a country that is able to stay fully open due to the ability to maintain extremely low numbers because of mandatory quarantine at the airports/ports, than in a country that allows for quarantine-free travel but has to lock down 9 months of the year because the numbers are never brought low enough to manage. If we had mandatory quarantine from the start of the pandemic, even if not a full zero Covid, we would have had a massive reduction in numbers and deaths and practically everything would be open.

Well, I would not be prepared to do that in anticipation of a variant that MIGHT come along and against which vaccines MIGHT have lower efficacy. Other experts like ONeill suggest that a vaccine proof variant is highly unlikely. I’d leave Ireland for good if there were mandatory quarantine for years and I could not travel (which could be what they are gearing up for in Australia and NZ). Locking down our borders for a variant that MIGHT lead to higher infections and deaths for a period is a disproportionate response IMO. We will have to live with this, and that includes travel

But we’ll never agree on it.

faceman

caveat emptor wrote: »

There's a distinction to be made. Not all variants are variants of concern.

Saying "there's thousands of variants" misses the point.

https://twitter.com/jlamber55605930/status/1365056581444984833?s=21

faceman

httpete wrote: »

How did living with it go last year? Every country was in an out of lockdown, us more than anyone. I noticed all the people against lockdown were extremely quiet in January when we were up to 8000 cases a day. People are angry and calling to open up now, what do you think happens then when we go back up to several thousand new cases a day and the country is completely f*cked all over again? Then we either go back into an even longer lockdown or we just let the virus run free completely. While there might be an argument for letting it run free, the government and nphet will never consider that option so that only leaves lockdown.

The only hope is to get the numbers low and keep them low. Not a full on zero Covid because that seems unattainable now, but low enough that the virus can be managed with testing and contract tracing. That's not possible when we have 700 daily cases.

If we had the mandatory quarantine in place last year the numbers travelling into the country at Xmas (and even in the months before Xmas) would have been miniscule and we wouldn't be in the middle of a 6 month lockdown that is due to the British variant which was brought into the country at Xmas and makes up 90% of cases now. The numbers would be so low that we would probably be at level 2 now and everything would be open maybe even the pubs.

Now there is some light at the end of the tunnel with the vaccines, but if we import a variant that the vaccines have very low efficiency against then we are back to square one. We will have made the same mistake as we did at Xmas by underestimating the dangers posed by variants.

This British variant was bad enough to put us into the longest lockdown in the world. It would be foolish to make the same mistake again, even moreso with variants that are vaccine resistant. If a vaccine resistant variant took hold in this country we would be well and truly f*cked. You can say that 'suggesting that the vaccines won’t even work is BS' all you like, I'm sure last December you would have thought it was BS if someone told you we would be spending the first 6-7 months of 2021 in lockdown. People need to start accounting for the unpredictability of this virus.

If the effects of the virus and existing/future variants is going to be present for 5-10 years, I would sooner spend those years in a country that is able to stay fully open due to the ability to maintain extremely low numbers because of mandatory quarantine at the airports/ports, than in a country that allows for quarantine-free travel but has to lock down 9 months of the year because the numbers are never brought low enough to manage. If we had mandatory quarantine from the start of the pandemic, even if not a full zero Covid, we would have had a massive reduction in numbers and deaths and practically everything would be open.

Flu mutates annually. Hospitalises and kills annually. When vaccines bring covid and flu to comparable levels and better over the next few months, how long do we close Ireland four out of fear of new variants? If covid is suppressed and we stay closed, why don’t we do the same with flu?

expectationlost

maestroamado wrote: »

How would people know what was going to happen in 12 weeks or indeed the person running the school.
Its up to powers to make rules and advise.
Personally i did not mind the relax approach to rules as it suited me at the time.
I am pretty careful to fallow the rules but i do beliebve they need be clearly set out and need to be updated daily...

were they watching the news? have they any intelligence? the NPHET briefings clearly said there would have to be extra restrictions after xmas including re education. they also advised against non-essential travel at all times https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/ba4aa0-letters-from-the-cmo-to-the-minister-for-health/ https://assets.gov.ie/99265/1c5ba10e-465d-4494-b7fb-f4c50bbb96fc.pdf

unregd147

httpete wrote: »

If the effects of the virus and existing/future variants is going to be present for 5-10 years, I would sooner spend those years in a country that is able to stay fully open due to the ability to maintain extremely low numbers because of mandatory quarantine at the airports/ports, than in a country that allows for quarantine-free travel but has to lock down 9 months of the year because the numbers are never brought low enough to manage. If we had mandatory quarantine from the start of the pandemic, even if not a full zero Covid, we would have had a massive reduction in numbers and deaths and practically everything would be open.

Id sooner hope the penny drops and all realise the lesser of two evils here is to let those who by and large have already lived a full and long life take their chance (95%+ of all deaths >70yrs?)

Vaccinate the 70+ and the vunerable. Then move on as normal. Deaths after this point are collateral and certainly the lesser of the two evils....

saabsaab

Deleted User wrote: »

But according to the zero Coviders like Staines the vaccines won’t be effective on new variants, so we have to stay closed off to the world forever, right? What’s the endgame?

So far the vaccines are effective (at least to a major extent) on known variants. So to stop this vaccines need to be rolled out fast to stop their development. Also to help in this process international travel needs to be severely curtailed until this has been done so that new variants haven's a chance to develop and spread. Hopefully this can be done by the end of July.

Danno

faceman wrote: »

Flu mutates annually. Hospitalises and kills annually. When vaccines bring covid and flu to comparable levels and better over the next few months, how long do we close Ireland four out of fear of new variants? If covid is suppressed and we stay closed, why don’t we do the same with flu?

The levels of death caused by flu is acceptable, the levels of death from Covid 19 isn't.
We close Ireland until the cases are low and vaccination of the vulnerable has been completed.
We then cautiously re-open international travel.
Those that disagree with this can always book a one-way ticket out of here.

Danno

faceman wrote: »

3? That’s not bad given there are 4,000 variants of Covid.

Thats the attitude, two fingers to your fellow countryman and allow your pet horse of international travel to continue, damn the variants. Your mammy must be proud of you now.

bluelamp

Danno wrote: »

The levels of death caused by flu is acceptable, the levels of death from Covid 19 isn't.

What is an acceptable amount of death by covid though?

I'd imagine the levels of deaths from the flu in the older population is far higher than reported.

If a 100 year old dies of the flu I'd be very surprised if it was reported as flu being the cause of death.

Yet they are reporting a 100 year old dying of covid, as covid being the cause. Not the fact they are 100.

Danno

bluelamp wrote: »

What is an acceptable amount of death by covid though?

I'd imagine the levels of deaths from the flu in the older population is far higher than reported.

If a 100 year old dies of the flu I'd be very surprised if it was reported as flu being the cause of death.

Yet they are reporting a 100 year old dying of covid, as covid being the cause. Not the fact they are 100.

I agree with your points, this government have the public over a barrel with this death from Covid guilt. If cases could be got very low and no new variants roaming in along with the vulnerable getting their vaccination then there would be no excuse or reason for continued internal restrictions in the ROI.

Either get cases down to between 0-20 per day or open it all up and let it rip, either way I don't give two hoots which they do, but continuing with these unequal restrictions is really getting under the public's skin.

Enough is enough.

unregd147

Danno wrote: »

The levels of death caused by flu is acceptable, the levels of death from Covid 19 isn't.

Wrong. The impact of keeping the levels of death from C19 low are much worse than the levels of death from C19. The old have lived their life. The rest of us cant live. Vaccinate the old and vulnerable and move on.

caveat emptor

faceman wrote: »

https://twitter.com/jlamber55605930/status/1365056581444984833?s=21

Viruses do indeed mutate but it's how they mutate that it is interesting. If you put a selection pressure then nature selects for traits that are advantageous. Hence why 90% of our cases are UK variant.

• We know that some variants can evade the immune response generated by vaccines or previous infection. That's a fact.
  
• We know that some variants are more transmissible.
• None of these variants are milder.

By all means say it ain't so but the evidence shows that now. I think point about immune-compromised individuals is good and probably led to the evolution of some of the mutations that caused these issues.

In natural selection evolution can converge. What will happen as large numbers of people become vaccinated? Do you think that the random mutations won't find a way? I know vaccines can be tweaked but it's not like we are vaccinating people at a rate to outrun this. Also what's to say one couldn't cause more severe illness etc. Letting it spread anywhere in the world is dangerous. The fact is Spain opened up in the summer, we got the Spanish variant. Uk did a half arsed lockdown pre Christmas while it was vaccinating people and B117 emerged.

Rinse and repeat but it's getting very tiring. I hope there won't be a 4th wave but I wouldn't count on it. Especially if unfettered travel is allowed to continue. (I'm intentionally leaving out pinky promise measures as they haven't worked)

The L452R mutations seems to make the California strain more damaging to the body as well.

A coronavirus engineered to have only that mutation was able to infect human lung tissue at least 40% more readily than other variants now in circulation that lacked the mutation. Compared with those so-called wild-type strains, the engineered virus was also more than three times more infectious.

Dr. Bruce Walker, an immunologist and founding director of the Ragon Institute in Boston, said that while viruses often mutate in ways that make them stronger, such genetic changes often impose a new Achilles’ heel. For instance, a strain that spreads more easily often loses some of its virulence.

The worrisome thing about the California variant, Walker said, is that no apparent weakness has been introduced alongside mutations that confer added strength.

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-02-24/the-nightmare-scenario-for-californias-coronavirus-strain-here-is-what-we-know

mickuhaha

The government don't care about the death rate or people flying into the country. We learned that at Christmas. The government are worried about how bad our health system is. The reason we're in lock down is because the health system is full up with covid cases. If they let this get worse then people who have injuries such as from car crashes or sports activities would end up sitting in hospital car parks with no care.

caveat emptor

Even Biden while sounding hopeful stating that variants are a major risk to cases and hospitalisations going back up.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1365152861726920710?s=20

Happydays2020

caveat emptor wrote: »

Viruses do indeed mutate but it's how they mutate that it is interesting. If you put a selection pressure then nature selects for traits that are advantageous. Hence why 90% of our cases are UK variant.

• We know that some variants can evade the immune response generated by vaccines or previous infection. That's a fact.
  
• We know that some variants are more transmissible.
• None of these variants are milder.

By all means say it ain't so but the evidence shows that now. I think point about immune-compromised individuals is good and probably led to the evolution of some of the mutations that caused these issues.

In natural selection evolution can converge. What will happen as large numbers of people become vaccinated? Do you think that the random mutations won't find a way? I know vaccines can be tweaked but it's not like we are vaccinating people at a rate to outrun this. Also what's to say one couldn't cause more severe illness etc. Letting it spread anywhere in the world is dangerous. The fact is Spain opened up in the summer, we got the Spanish variant. Uk did a half arsed lockdown pre Christmas while it was vaccinating people and B117 emerged.

Rinse and repeat but it's getting very tiring. I hope there won't be a 4th wave but I wouldn't count on it. Especially if unfettered travel is allowed to continue. (I'm intentionally leaving out pinky promise measures as they haven't worked)



https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-02-24/the-nightmare-scenario-for-californias-coronavirus-strain-here-is-what-we-know

I know science is science but the concept of viruses now being engineered in labs is gold for conspiracy theorists.

faceman

Danno wrote: »

The levels of death caused by flu is acceptable, the levels of death from Covid 19 isn't.
We close Ireland until the cases are low and vaccination of the vulnerable has been completed.
We then cautiously re-open international travel.
Those that disagree with this can always book a one-way ticket out of here.

As always Danno you’re missing the point. As vaccinations increase, covid fatalities will be the same as flu fatalities or better. So when is that same metric acceptable for covid. Listening to the government and the HSE it’s a zero tolerance.

As you’ve rightly stated we’re ok with a level of flu deaths, with the threat of flu variants.

faceman

caveat emptor wrote: »

Viruses do indeed mutate but it's how they mutate that it is interesting. If you put a selection pressure then nature selects for traits that are advantageous. Hence why 90% of our cases are UK variant.

• We know that some variants can evade the immune response generated by vaccines or previous infection. That's a fact.
  
• We know that some variants are more transmissible.
• None of these variants are milder.

By all means say it ain't so but the evidence shows that now. I think point about immune-compromised individuals is good and probably led to the evolution of some of the mutations that caused these issues.

In natural selection evolution can converge. What will happen as large numbers of people become vaccinated? Do you think that the random mutations won't find a way? I know vaccines can be tweaked but it's not like we are vaccinating people at a rate to outrun this. Also what's to say one couldn't cause more severe illness etc. Letting it spread anywhere in the world is dangerous. The fact is Spain opened up in the summer, we got the Spanish variant. Uk did a half arsed lockdown pre Christmas while it was vaccinating people and B117 emerged.

Rinse and repeat but it's getting very tiring. I hope there won't be a 4th wave but I wouldn't count on it. Especially if unfettered travel is allowed to continue. (I'm intentionally leaving out pinky promise measures as they haven't worked)



https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-02-24/the-nightmare-scenario-for-californias-coronavirus-strain-here-is-what-we-know

I believe that the point is that mutations occur in the infected and the more who are vaccinated the less opportunity for mutation as with other viruses. The bigger concern for mutation is countries who don’t have vaccines. So the next big evolution lost vaccinations will unlikely come the EU or the US.

I agree about the 4th wave. It’s inevitable as we aren’t vaccinating quick enough. Spain have gone so far as to predict when it may occur here and offered people advice on how to plan for their businesses being restricted again.

Lots of unknowns, agreed, but lots of positives to give hope.

caveat emptor

Happydays2020 wrote: »

I know science is science but the concept of viruses now being engineered in labs is gold for conspiracy theorists.

What has that got to do with my post. These variants evolve.......naturally. Couldn't give a sh!te what conspiracy theorists think. They are idiots.

maestroamado

expectationlost wrote: »

were they watching the news? have they any intelligence? the NPHET briefings clearly said there would have to be extra restrictions after xmas including re education. they also advised against non-essential travel at all times https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/ba4aa0-letters-from-the-cmo-to-the-minister-for-health/ https://assets.gov.ie/99265/1c5ba10e-465d-4494-b7fb-f4c50bbb96fc.pdf

I was of opinion that these people arrived on Dec 5th, from an article I just read it much later and your correct...

Rodin

Another day, another new variant in the country.

When will the government learn?

ShineOn7

Rodin wrote: »

Another day, another new variant in the country.

When will the government learn?

From where?

There's nothing mentioned I can see here https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus

Potatoeman

Happydays2020 wrote: »

I know science is science but the concept of viruses now being engineered in labs is gold for conspiracy theorists.

Doesn’t help that it’s being investigated by the WHO in China, that won’t openly recognise Taiwan or let them join. Can’t really treat them as an impartial source.