The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

Grumpypants

People are holding onto how 1 made them feel, but they are forgetting that you can't ever recreate a Joel and Ellie story that can come close to that. It worked because they were strangers and slowly built that bond over hours of gameplay.

For a sequel they can't be strangers again. It would have to start with them in the same stage and then just go on a 20 hour adventure where they kill a million people and zombies.

As much as people say that is what they wanted, they would have been bored by it too.

ND did mention that they tried multiple different angles. It is very likely that everything the Youtubers are saying they wanted was tried and it didn't work.

It is easy to sit on the fence and say what should have been done. It's like the annoying guy in the office who talks about how the manager is an idiot and his tactics would have been way better.

Retr0gamer

Leroy42 wrote: »

But why? It was left with an open ending, nothing was resolved. Sure there was comfort in thinking that everyone lived (that was still alive!) happily ever after but that was never the intention of this world that ND created.

Because it ended perfectly. It was left up to the audience to think about how life would continue for Joel and Ellie from that point onwards but it was obvious that the relationship has now soured and was doomed. We didn't need to know what happened next. It had said everything it needed to say by that point.

Grumpypants wrote: »

People are holding onto how 1 made them feel, but they are forgetting that you can't ever recreate a Joel and Ellie story that can come close to that. It worked because they were strangers and slowly built that bond over hours of gameplay.

For a sequel they can't be strangers again. It would have to start with them in the same stage and then just go on a 20 hour adventure where they kill a million people and zombies.

As much as people say that is what they wanted, they would have been bored by it too.

ND did mention that they tried multiple different angles. It is very likely that everything the Youtubers are saying they wanted was tried and it didn't work.

It is easy to sit on the fence and say what should have been done. It's like the annoying guy in the office who talks about how the manager is an idiot and his tactics would have been way better.

You're making excuses for the story being not as good as TLOU1.

The real questions are if you aren't going to make a story as good as TLOU1 then why bother telling it if it's going to be weaker and disappointing. Tell something different. It's why I said I'd probably have preferred the same world with different characters. It's also not an excuse to say that TLOU1 is an impossibly high bar to achieve in storytelling. Firstly it's not the be all and end all of videogame narrative. There's much better out there. And secondly even if you take away the memory and impact of the first game TLOU2 is significantly weaker narratively taken in it's own context.

jones

Yeah i was surprised to see the amount of people saying what a ****ty person Joel was at the end of the first one. I would have done the exact same thing (maybe its me ha) same as above i still love Ellie as a character. Revenge is a complicated feeling and i think thats what the game was trying to get across Ellie knows no good will come of the act of revenge but she feels compelled to do it all the same and continues with it more than once.

As for the game i think it was brilliant i am a sucker for naughty dog games so their layout/level design/story obviously appeals to me - i love the uncharted series too. I really didnt get all the drama pre release with leaks and trans this, woke that, etc even after finishing the game i thought is THIS what all the drama was about? I can understand people being upset over Joel dying but it was pretty inevitable what other direct could they have gone? I did assume we'd actually play as Joel in this for more than just the prologue but i'm not that bothered this was always going to be Ellies story and i actually liked the flip side of seeing Abbie's side of things. Although it was jarring when the flip first happened.

The story for me is very good although i dont think its as good as the impossibly good first one. A worthy sequel in my eyes if people dont like it thats fine. 9/10 for me

The Raging Bile Duct

gimli2112 wrote: »

The sequel hasn't harmed my view of Ellie whom I still adore. Then again I think Joel was a good guy which is at odds with many of the views here. Some of Ellie's choices remain baffling. Going after Abby again, finding her and then letting her live just don't make sense to me.
I did like the ending of the first one, it was left to you to decide what happened next. I do like happy endings. Frozen would have cracked me up if they had left your one as a snowman. I appreciate I can't always get what I want but I don't have to be happy about it.

I don't know if I got a sense of loss at the end but I was pretty bummed out.

Frozen is a tad different in terms of dealing with moral ambiguities. The end of the Mist would be closer to what they were trying to achieve with TLOU.

jones

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

The end of the Mist would be closer to what they were trying to achieve with TLOU.

Off topic but what a F-ing ending by the way

The Raging Bile Duct

jones wrote: »

Off topic but what a F-ing ending by the way

Haunted me for days afterwards.

johnny_ultimate

TBH, does any sequel really *need* to be made? Putting aside films divided into parts, trilogies etc... I could count on one hand the film sequels that seem driven primarily by artistic motivations rather than commercial ones. Saraband, Before Sunset... already start struggling after that. And of course some commercial sequels turn out great as well, but the majority wouldn't exist if it wasn't lucrative to do so.

When it comes to games, you could argue more sequels are justified simply because mechanics can be polished and graphics can be upgraded - technically 'improving' on the previous game, and many games are driven by mechanics and graphics more than anything. But when a game is as driven by narrative as The Last of Us, you always risk muddying the water by returning to something that ended fairly definitively (albeit not happily ). Mostly game sequels are commercial enterprises though as opposed to passion projects - and there's a rabid market out there for 'more of the same' when it comes to any popular entity.

TBH at this stage, whatever Naughty Dog does next - and it frankly seems like the well has dried up on both Uncharted and TLOU, at least in their traditional incarnations - it's time for them to try to depart from their gameplay formula. Both their recent series are variations on the same combat-heavy house style - different tones, but similar design. I'm not sure they can tell any more stories or explore any new worlds without some sort of departure from that. U4 and TLOU2 to varying degrees - and to mixed success - try to be games about the Naughty Dog 'house style', the natural endpoint in their respective franchises. If they want to really move beyond that, they'll need to try something very new.

Zero-Cool

I just hope we see another Grounded making of doc to see BTS like the killing of Joel. Laura Bailey had said that filming was like making different games with her and Abby's crew in one day, Ellie and her crew in the next and then the rare scenes where everyone is together. I'd love to see how the actors managed that scene.

I can also see them not releasing it because it will probably release at a time when the Abby rage has died down and the devs get back to some peace and quiet while releasing the doc would open the floodgates again.

Arcadeheroes

I wrote this in my review on the main Last of Us 2 thread but the game would of benefited more if the sequel followed another set of Survivours in the same universe , that would of stopped the majority of the outrage and death threats ND received but unfortunately people need to get paid to feed their families and Joel and Ellie have become too much of a cashcow so it was never going to happen .

To me Naughty Dogs game design has become very stale , but its not entirely their fault . The Linear Narrative Storytelling games that come from Sony studios have served them well this generation but its really has become a tired forumla for me as they are all starting to look and feel the same .

There needs to be a studio to really break the mold in this genre and try to freshen things up for Next Gen .

Retr0gamer

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

U4 and TLOU2 to varying degrees - and to mixed success - try to be games about the Naughty Dog 'house style', the natural endpoint in their respective franchises.

There was nothing natural about Uncharted 4 especially how they shoehorned in his brother. That stunk of unneeded sequel. Was glad to see Lost Legacy at least moving on from that mess.

ERG89

Retr0gamer wrote: »

There was nothing natural about Uncharted 4 especially how they shoehorned in his brother. That stunk of unneeded sequel. Was glad to see Lost Legacy at least moving on from that mess.

Didn't they have to rewrite Uncharted 4 a few years into development when Amy Hennig left?
Lost Legacy wasn't really needed but turned out ok too....

The Raging Bile Duct

Arcadeheroes wrote: »

I wrote this in my review on the main Last of Us 2 thread but the game would of benefited more if the sequel followed another set of Survivours in the same universe , that would of stopped the majority of the outrage and death threats ND received but unfortunately people need to get paid to feed their families and Joel and Ellie have become too much of a cashcow so it was never going to happen .

If Joel and Ellie weren't in it at all and they concentrated on completely different characters, there still would have been death threats and howls of outrage. It seems like the only thing that would have kept them happy is if they did a retread of the original story which would have been completely pointless.

J. Marston

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

TBH at this stage, whatever Naughty Dog does next - and it frankly seems like the well has dried up on both Uncharted and TLOU, at least in their traditional incarnations - it's time for them to try to depart from their gameplay formula. Both their recent series are variations on the same combat-heavy house style - different tones, but similar design. I'm not sure they can tell any more stories or explore any new worlds without some sort of departure from that. U4 and TLOU2 to varying degrees - and to mixed success - try to be games about the Naughty Dog 'house style', the natural endpoint in their respective franchises. If they want to really move beyond that, they'll need to try something very new.

A gritty remake of Jak & Daxter. Jak and Daxter finally go their separate ways after Daxter can't cope with Jak's crippling addiction to Dark Echo.

Think Disney meets Requiem for a Dream.

The Raging Bile Duct

J. Marston wrote: »

A gritty remake of Jak & Daxter. Jak and Daxter finally go their separate ways after Daxter can't cope with Jak's crippling addiction to Dark Echo.

Think Disney meets Requiem for a Dream.

Requiem for a Dream... TLOU2 is Carry On Camping compared to that.

Retr0gamer

J. Marston wrote: »

A gritty remake of Jak & Daxter. Jak and Daxter finally go their separate ways after Daxter can't cope with Jak's crippling addiction to Dark Echo.

Think Disney meets Requiem for a Dream.

They went gritty with Jak 2 and it was a steaming pile of overrated tripe.

johnny_ultimate

Also not sure anyone can ever make a game as bleak and gritty as Pathologic 2. That’s how you commit to an insanely grim player experience in every facet of the design.

Grumpypants

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

If Joel and Ellie weren't in it at all and they concentrated on completely different characters, there still would have been death threats and howls of outrage. It seems like the only thing that would have kept them happy is if they did a retread of the original story which would have been completely pointless.

Exactly, for a good 15 hours you are playing as a different group in the same world. Every part of it is better than the Ellie Joel bits and yet they **** all over it because they just want more Ellie and Joel.

gimli2112

https://www.gamesradar.com/the-last-of-us-2-players-spot-tiny-detail-that-presents-massive-implications-for-the-ending/

makes total sense to me and I'm not entertaining any arguments to the contrary.
happy out, Joel's choice was the right one.

Retr0gamer

Jaysus gimli2112, you really like your stories wrapped up with a happy ending. Your worse than my mother and the massive argument we had with her because she wanted to know what was in the suitcase at the end of Pulp Fiction. She said it should have been like the Sandalot kids or Stand by Me where it tells you what happens to everyone after the movie. :pac:

Zero-Cool

Grumpypants wrote: »

Exactly, for a good 15 hours you are playing as a different group in the same world. Every part of it is better than the Ellie Joel bits and yet they **** all over it because they just want more Ellie and Joel.

Yupp, we did get a different story and people still not happy. I think people really don't like that Joel and Ellie were the 'bad guys' as it showed Ellie doing horrific kills while Abby was being merciful and the zebra scene etc, but i didn't look at any of them as the bad guys. Like someone else said on here, everyone is a bad guy in someone else's journey. They just needed you empathise with Abby quick enough to get onboard and if you didn't allow that to happen, the story falls apart.

gimli2112

gimli2112 wrote: »

https://www.gamesradar.com/the-last-of-us-2-players-spot-tiny-detail-that-presents-massive-implications-for-the-ending/

makes total sense to me and I'm not entertaining any arguments to the contrary.
happy out, Joel's choice was the right one.

I watched the end again on YouTube

Everything she points out here is accurate

Pretty massive news for fans tbh

FAILSAFE 00

I think Ellie's story is now concluded. IMO the Last of Us 3 will be an Abby and Lev adventure.

Zero-Cool

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

I think Ellie's story is now concluded. IMO the Last of Us 3 will be an Abby and Lev adventure.

Lev and Abby made it to the Firefly camp on Catalonia. I would pay top dollar for DLC to play/watch them get there, heal up and get back to 'normal'

Penn

Zero-Cool wrote: »

Lev and Abby made it to the Firefly camp on Catalonia. I would pay top dollar for DLC to play/watch them get there, heal up and get back to 'normal'

Did they? I'm still not sure. I thought the round building in the background of the changed title menu image is the same as the building you go through to rescue them from the Rattlers?

gimli2112

Deleted User wrote: »

I watched the end again on YouTube

Everything she points out here is accurate

Pretty massive news for fans tbh

I know, I could have written the ending myself. I needed that closure to get on with my real life.

Zero-Cool

Penn wrote: »

Did they? I'm still not sure. I thought the round building in the background of the changed title menu image is the same as the building you go through to rescue them from the Rattlers?

Neil confirmed that was Catalonia Island on the new menu and heavily hinted that was abby and Lev's boat so I'm all in on that ending

KerranJast

Zero-Cool wrote: »

Neil confirmed that was Catalonia Island on the new menu and heavily hinted that was abby and Lev's boat so I'm all in on that ending

If that's the case then that means the Fireflies could have reconstituted and there's a sliver of hope for civilisation.

Fwiw I really loved this and I'm playing through NG+ again. It's really interesting to see with hindsight now all the little references to what's going on in both storylines.

I love the world ND has created and expanded on and IMO there is scope for some kind of redemption plot for Ellie if ND choose to go that way.

As mentioned, that'll be a while if it happens though as it feels like they're in need of finding a new AAA IP to work on.

Grumpypants

So what we're saying is part 3 we stock up on the island then hunt and kill Ellie, make a vaccine and then everyone will love Abby

SMC92Ian

Grumpypants wrote: »

People are holding onto how 1 made them feel, but they are forgetting that you can't ever recreate a Joel and Ellie story that can come close to that..

I disagree, the flashbacks with Joel and Ellie in 2 were AMAZING, even better than anything in 1 imo. They were perfect so a full game of that would of been much better.

Zero-Cool

New ep of the official tlou podcast where they finally get to the good stuff about 2. Interesting to hear about their reasons behind their decision making although some of that has already been doing the rounds through various interviews.

https://twitter.com/Naughty_Dog/status/1280549022990655488?s=19