How did it all come to this? AGS charging NTA to enforce bus gate

Peregrine

Well, it looks like ANPR camera enforcement powers for the NTA are on the way. NTA believes camera enforcement to be vital for BusConnects, has zero confidence in the Guards and requested legislative amendments.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

i didn't realise that house alarms detect and capture housebreakers. i must look further into the technology.

the resistance to static ANPR cameras at problem junctions is strange. surely it's a better use of resources than scheduling gardai to stand at the junction doing the same?

You didn't realise house alarms detected break-ins? What did you think they did? You also didn't realise there's burglary units. Today's a school day indeed.

It is a better method, but it's not within the Garda budget.

Peregrine

Peregrine wrote: »

Well, it looks like ANPR camera enforcement powers for the NTA are on the way. NTA believes camera enforcement to be vital for BusConnects, has zero confidence in the Guards and requested legislative amendments.

Good. They can install and replace them from their own budget and everyone's happy

magicbastarder

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You didn't realise house alarms detected break-ins?

do you want me to explain what the word 'and' means, or did you see and understand it, but choose to ignore it?

magicbastarder

Peregrine wrote: »

Well, it looks like ANPR camera enforcement powers for the NTA are on the way. NTA believes camera enforcement to be vital for BusConnects, has zero confidence in the Guards and requested legislative amendments.

only in the context of busconnects? hopefully they'll be used on a wider basis.

Peregrine

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Good. They can install and replace them from their own budget and everyone's happy

Generally, I'm not very happy when the national police force ignores aspects of policing for so long that another state agency has to ask for that policing power. It's probably for the best but it shouldn't have happened like this.

If the cost of the cameras was the issue, AGS wouldn't have just stopped issuing fines when DCC installed a red light camera at Blackhall Place.

magicbastarder wrote: »

only in the context of busconnects? hopefully they'll be used on a wider basis.

No, more broadly nationally. BusConnects was the justification. You'd assume they'd want to use them at Luas junctions too, for starters.

Peregrine

Peregrine wrote: »

Generally, I'm not very happy when the national police force ignores aspects of policing for so long that another state agency has to ask for that policing power. It's probably for the best but it shouldn't have happened like this.

If the cost of the cameras was the issue, AGS wouldn't have just stopped issuing fines when DCC installed a red light camera at Blackhall Place.



No, more broadly nationally. BusConnects was the justification. You'd assume they'd want to use them at Luas junctions too, for starters.

Again, AGS do not use anpr cameras in this way. Do I need to say it a third time?

Should I also repeat the comment about manpower seeing as that's ignored as well?

How about pointing out that the Garda budget is tight, putting a camera in for this would not only change Garda policy but also remove a camera from a traffic car. A bad move.

Jesus, can I come live in your utopia where budgets don't matter and we can just do everything?

magicbastarder

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

putting a camera in for this would not only change Garda policy but also remove a camera from a traffic car.

they would use the same cameras mounted on the dash in a car as they would fixed to a pole or what have you, on a junction?

Peregrine

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Again, AGS do not use anpr cameras in this way. Do I need to say it a third time?

Should I also repeat the comment about manpower seeing as that's ignored as well?

How about pointing out that the Garda budget is tight, putting a camera in for this would not only change Garda policy but also remove a camera from a traffic car. A bad move.

Jesus, can I come live in your utopia where budgets don't matter and we can just do everything?

I know well enough that they don't use it this way. That's the problem. Say it a million times but 'We do not use them this way' and 'against Garda policy' is neither an explanation or an excuse for not carrying out their responsibility. Change the policy and enter the 21st century.

You must have missed the part where DCC installed the red light camera and offered to install bus lane cameras. Do you think DCC went and nicked them from Garda cars? The cost of the cameras does not have to be borne by AGS. Now that we've established it's not the cost of the cameras that is the problem, is lack of manpower your final answer?

Okay. Now, what steps have the Gardaí taken to set up a system where the manpower costs are shared? Has AGS, in light of their lack of manpower and 'policy' of not using cameras to police road traffic offences, requested changes in legislation that allows civil enforcement to take the stress off them? Since the laws they're supposed to enforce are brazenly being broken on the roads, surely they would have taken some steps to reach out to the Department of Transport to change legislation to allow civil enforcement? I know for a fact that they haven't. Was their budget too tight to reach out and suggest alternatives? They would have taken some steps to reach out to the local authorities to come up with a joint enforcement proposal, surely?

Even without civil enforcement, a garda enforcing road traffic laws through cameras is much much more efficient. It doesn't have to be new resources, it can be a reassignment of the small number of existing resources that are supposed to police red lights, illegal parking, bus lanes etc. to vastly increase efficiency. 1 garda enforcing through cameras could free up several gardaí in patrol cars. Do you think speed cameras caused an increase in the number of guards needed to enforce speed limits or something (given a fixed number of roads)? No, the efficiency went up. The number of gardaí assigned to roads policing has gone up significantly in recent years. There were a 100 odd due to be transferred to roads policing a this year. Surely, at some stage they would have thought "If we put these 100 roads policing gardaí behind cameras, we could actually enforce the roads much more effectively? Nope. They're going straight into decades old policing methods.

My point is not just that they're not doing it, it's that they're ignoring it, and have taken zero steps to make sure someone is enforcing it. My point is that they never cared. And I find that unacceptable. You can settle for that level of apathy in policing if you want but I won't.

magicbastarder

the gardai basically just don't care. the road safety issue is essentially bottom of the agenda, the authorities point to historically low deaths on the road and decide 'job done, what more can we do' as if road fatalities are the be all and end all of how we measure road safety and behaviour.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

they would use the same cameras mounted on the dash in a car as they would fixed to a pole or what have you, on a junction?

You are being deliberately obtuse.

The MONEY SPENT ON THE CAMERA went come from thin air, it comes from the Garda it budget.

I have already pointed out the budget is tight. We use donated laptops to watch CCTV footage ffs!

Peregrine

Peregrine wrote: »

I know well enough that they don't use it this way. That's the problem. Say it a million times but 'We do not use them this way' and 'against Garda policy' is neither an explanation or an excuse for not carrying out their responsibility. Change the policy and enter the 21st century.

You must have missed the part where DCC installed the red light camera and offered to install bus lane cameras. Do you think DCC went and nicked them from Garda cars? The cost of the cameras does not have to be borne by AGS. Now that we've established it's not the cost of the cameras that is the problem, is lack of manpower your final answer?

Okay. Now, what steps have the Gardaí taken to set up a system where the manpower costs are shared? Has AGS, in light of their lack of manpower and 'policy' of not using cameras to police road traffic offences, requested changes in legislation that allows civil enforcement to take the stress off them? Since the laws they're supposed to enforce are brazenly being broken on the roads, surely they would have taken some steps to reach out to the Department of Transport to change legislation to allow civil enforcement? I know for a fact that they haven't. Was their budget too tight to reach out and suggest alternatives? They would have taken some steps to reach out to the local authorities to come up with a joint enforcement proposal, surely?

Even without civil enforcement, a garda enforcing road traffic laws through cameras is much much more efficient. It doesn't have to be new resources, it can be a reassignment of the small number of existing resources that are supposed to police red lights, illegal parking, bus lanes etc. to vastly increase efficiency. 1 garda enforcing through cameras could free up several gardaí in patrol cars. Do you think speed cameras caused an increase in the number of guards needed to enforce speed limits or something (given a fixed number of roads)? No, the efficiency went up. The number of gardaí assigned to roads policing has gone up significantly in recent years. There were a 100 odd due to be transferred to roads policing a this year. Surely, at some stage they would have thought "If we put these 100 roads policing gardaí behind cameras, we could actually enforce the roads much more effectively? Nope. They're going straight into decades old policing methods.

My point is not just that they're not doing it, it's that they're ignoring it, and have taken zero steps to make sure someone is enforcing it. My point is that they never cared. And I find that unacceptable. You can settle for that level of apathy in policing if you want but I won't.

Hold up a second, which is it? You are ok with this stage being personnel performed by another agency or not? Your first comment was that you blame the Gardai and it shouldn't be farmed out. Now you see blaming the Gardai for stopping it being farmed out. Neither is true.


Moving on, Gardai do have systems in place where they operate donated camera systems. There's nothing in law preventing it. A lot of community CCTV is community owned but operates by AGS so I am unsure why you are so convinced that AGS are actively blocking such an effort. It's also not on the department of transport to change any law so I dunno why ags would reach out.

We already have airport and harbour police. We have traffic wardens. There's nothing stopping them from going ahead themselves if they want but they won't. They won't spend their money on it and cannot realistically expect a Garda to just sit at that one spot all day.

Your third point, significant numbers in road policing. Well you can take that up with other users here who claim otherwise but again, it's not about enforcement, it's about 24/7 dedicated enforcement. Gardai are not generally placed on the one area 24/7 to deal with such things. If they are, it's generally funded outside the Garda budget. You may not like that, but that's the system.

Simple reality folks, from someone actually inside the system, roads policing actually have good numbers and a larger slice of the budget than their numbers demand. They have better cars and equipment. Having said that, the money is quickly used up. The vehicle, the training, the anpr camera, the drager testing systems all cost money. If you think they aren't enforcing traffic then I suggest a few days in court number 8 when things return to normal. Remembering of course that the court cases are only those that didn't pay the tickets in the first place.

You want effective, quality policing? It's going to take a large investment in equipment, manpower and training. That's simple 100% not going to happen.

15000 total workforce in ****ty cars that's less than half the driver's can even use the siren in. Less than 10% of cars have anpr. None have dashcams.

Gardai don't carry body unless they self purchase. Stab vests that are 15 years old despite the warranty only being 5.

Using old, donated laptops or their own personal ones. Pulse systems being a few years old by the time they are even issued.

Stations that are partially condemned, Vermin infested or rented.

Detectives going to calls solo because there's insufficient detectives to double crew a car.

Areas not even having their own response car because of insufficient manpower to crew one of someone is sick or on holiday.

Guys, your beating the dead horse instead of looking for the owner that killed it!

magicbastarder

that's grand. change is not possible, so just suck it up. gotcha.

LeinsterDub

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Actually there is a dedicated burglary unit in each area and again, if you want one protecting just your house, you would be told to jog on. So yes, it's accurate. They wanted a Garda just for this one area. That was the issue.



Ags don't use anpr cameras in that manner at all. They are expensive to buy and expensive to maintain with less than half the rpu vehicles having one to begin with. They are only inside cars, not static unless they have installed then in speed Vans recently. Why would Gardai invest in such a system for one isolated area? The budget is paper thin as it is.

To bring it back to the house scenario which someone else raised, is it the Gardai that pay for your house alarm?

The NTA offered to buy and cover the operating costs

LeinsterDub

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The NTA offered to buy and cover the operating costs

Who stopped them?

LeinsterDub

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Who stopped them?

AGS refused to use them

bk

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Those same police forces are not well respected in general and are paid for by the local council's.

What you are suggesting is that we introduce a 'fingal police' and so on and pay them from the county council budget. They would then only enforce the co co bye laws and would need to call Gardai to deal with actual crimes.

That's pretty much what we have in the airports and ports now.

Yes, exactly. And we already have a service like this, Traffic Wardens. Give them some extra powers of enforcement over operating ANPR, traffic offences relating to bus/bike lanes, etc. and increase their numbers.

You don't even need to take these powers away from the Gardai, they can both keep these powers, just like a Garda and a Traffic Warden can both issue a parking ticket. You now just have more people who can issue tickets for bus lanes, etc.

Sure, you are right, no one respects "City Police" in other countries, not much different to Traffic Wardens here really. But respect doesn't matter, a parking ticket is much the same whether issued by a Garda, Traffic Warden or ANPR.

No one is expecting them to tackle drug dealers or anything like that. In some ways it is a waste to have a highly trained and paid Garda enforcing basic traffic laws when it could easily be done by an expanded Traffic Warden division.

BTW Interestingly when the Dublin City Traffic Wardens were first formed in the 60's, they started out as auxiliaries of the Garda Siochana, the first 20 being retired Gardai and they were based out of Store Street Garda Station. So there is quiet a bit of history to this.

ED E

bk wrote: »

Sure, you are right, no one respects "City Police" in other countries, not much different to Traffic Wardens here really. But respect doesn't matter, a parking ticket is much the same whether issued by a Garda, Traffic Warden or ANPR.

I tell ya, go to tourist cities in Poland and watch motorists freeze in fear of crossing a zebra with a ped nearby. Municipal police are excellent when they have the power to really sting your wallet.

bk

ED E wrote: »

I tell ya, go to tourist cities in Poland and watch motorists freeze in fear of crossing a zebra with a ped nearby. Municipal police are excellent when they have the power to really sting your wallet.

Big time, same with ticket inspectors on buses, etc. in Poland. No one is happy getting caught having to pay out big fines.

It isn't like anyone here in Ireland feels differently getting a speeding ticket from a Garda versus in the post from a speed camera van. The fine and penalty points is much the same either way.

It really isn't that radical concept here. We have long had ticket inspectors, traffic wardens, litter inspectors, customs officers, airport police, even bouncers and private security in shops.

Increasingly lower level jobs once done by the Gardai are being taken over by civilians, like DFA civil servants taking over emigration control from the Gardai at Dublin Airport.

If you stop and think of the name of "Traffic Wardens" at DCC. "Traffic", not "Parking Wardens" like in Cork and other cities, "Traffic Wardens". Clearly when they were first setup, they had in mind them doing more enforcement then just parking tickets. It really wouldn't be much of a stretch to have "Traffic Wardens" direct traffic and issue tickets related to it.

With there being less and less paid parking anyway in DCC, reusing them in this way might be a sensible suggestion.

I do understand of course that changes to legislation would probably be required to make it happen. But it does seem like something worth perusing.