“Senior politician, household name” sexually assaults girl [** NO NAMES **]

KiKi III

frozenfrozen wrote: »

you've just proposed we're all in whatsapp groups with porn and misogynistic jokes :rolleyes: but I must be trolling for reading what you posted

I asked the question. I didn’t propose it. I notice you haven’t answered it.

Are you telling me these kinds of lads groups are a figment or my imagination as well?

Airyfairy12

bladespin wrote: »

Just referring to the mistrust quote the accusations, it's a very scary time to be male these days, even one who hasn't done anything wrong. A rumour is enough to damn you.

It has always been a scary time to be a woman.

How many men do you know first hand who have had false accusations made against them?

Triangle

KiKi III wrote: »

How many of you lads who don’t believe women are in WhatsApp groups where porn, misogynistic jokes and memes etc are shared regularly?

Wow, it's not just SOME men, it's also SOME women. My ex-wife has a whatsapp group of 10-13 where they regularly disparage men and tell sexist jokes. Some of the stuff is just pure offensive. They're very proud of their Feminist traits.

KiKi III

bladespin wrote: »

Just referring to the mistrust quote the accusations, it's a very scary time to be male these days, even one who hasn't done anything wrong. A rumour is enough to damn you.

It’s a very scary time to be a woman too, because we have to constantly guard ourselves against assault.

Don’t wear anything too slutty, it sends the wrong message. Don’t drink too much, there are people out there who will take advantage of that. Never, ever leave your drink unattended. Definitely don’t walk home on your own. Don’t take the shortcut, it’s dangerous.

I get told everything in the above paragraph *by men* all the time. Men who care about me and don’t want me to get hurt. They ask me to protect myself in these ways because they know the world can be a dangerous place for a women and yet when a woman steps forward and says “That thing you’ve been warning me about - it actually happened” and then you say “ah that doesn’t seem very believable”.

StackSteevens

KiKi III wrote: »

Yes, I did.

As I understand it, no one in the courtroom was there representing her. The Crown Prosecution represented the state and questioned the men for a few hours each. There was no legal representation or advocate for the woman.

Then men’s extremely expensive legal team then questioned the girl for five full days. I’ll never have faith in a trial that questions the accused for hours and the alleged victim for days.

As I understand it, the way rape trials are conducted in the North was totally re-examined as a result.

Your criticisms regarding the trial process - which I share - have got absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you believed her allegations in the first place.

KiKi III

KiKi III wrote: »

Horrible.

That’s the bit a lot of men don’t get. We don’t say “I believe her” because it’s some woke Twitter trend, we say it because in a lot of cases we’ve been there, and so have our best friends, and our older sisters etc.

I told one of my stories last night because it was preying on my mind but I have three or four others.

I think there’s a deep-seated instinct in a lot of men to disbelieve women because they don’t want to examine their peers’ behaviour.

How many of you lads who don’t believe women are in WhatsApp groups where porn, misogynistic jokes and memes etc are shared regularly?

A lot of men don't want to believe it because they would never do anything like that themselves nor imagine their friends would either.

Sharing "misogynistic" jokes and memes are done regularly, if by misogynistic you mean stupid jokes about women and men that women share too. Sharing porn isn't done by any group I know.

I genuinely haven't seen any of my peers do anything like this in public at least, or even heard of it. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I think there is a fallacy here that it is "all men" doing this when it is "certain groups" of men. In fact the "all men" is a very sexist point of view.

bladespin

KiKi III wrote: »

then you say “ah that doesn’t seem very believable”.

Where did I say that????

I have sisters too and, yes, I warned them too but I have boys as well, it's hard to warn against rumour.

StackSteevens

KiKi III wrote: »

I don’t know her, so I can’t say for sure. I know that I was compelled by the allegations on Twitter over the weekend to share a story from my own past here last night. I didn’t really have a “point”, I was just upset about it and wanted to get it off my chest.

So maybe that was her point.

And do you think that she considered for an instant the potential damage to the reputation of a number of male Irish politicians that her allegation would create, before she fired off her post?

Airyfairy12

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot of men don't want to believe it because they would never do anything like that themselves nor imagine their friends would either.

Sharing "misogynistic" jokes and memes are done regularly, if by misogynistic you mean stupid jokes about women and men that women share too. Sharing porn isn't done by any group I know.

I genuinely haven't seen any of my peers do anything like this in public at least, or even heard of it. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I think there is a fallacy here that it is "all men" doing this when it is "certain groups" of men. In fact the "all men" is a very sexist point of view.

Not all men just like not all white people are racist, but enough of them for it to be a serious problem. Ignoring it and pretending it doesnt happen because 'not all men' doesnt help anyone, youre just silencing victims which contributes to the abuse and helps perpetrators.

KiKi III

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

It has always been a scary time to be a woman.

How many men do you know first hand who have had false accusations made against them?

This is it.

Almost every woman I know in real life has a story. Some of it is “just” sexual misconduct where they were felt up by a creep, but a shockingly high number are serious sexual assaults and rape.

No man I know in real life has been falsely accused, this is a widely exaggerated threat that’s used to scare men into not believing women.

Rodin

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

that's not proof of anything

an unverified twitter profile making a vague allegation about nobody

what is it proof of?

I was answering the OP's initial question.
I don't automatically believe.
I want proof.

KiKi III

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A lot of men don't want to believe it because they would never do anything like that themselves nor imagine their friends would either.

Sharing "misogynistic" jokes and memes are done regularly, if by misogynistic you mean stupid jokes about women and men that women share too. Sharing porn isn't done by any group I know.

I genuinely haven't seen any of my peers do anything like this in public at least, or even heard of it. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I think there is a fallacy here that it is "all men" doing this when it is "certain groups" of men. In fact the "all men" is a very sexist point of view.

Luckily nobody here is talking about all men then...

KiKi III

KiKi III wrote: »

I get told everything in the above paragraph *by men* all the time. Men who care about me and don’t want me to get hurt. They ask me to protect myself in these ways because they know the world can be a dangerous place for a women and yet when a woman steps forward and says “That thing you’ve been warning me about - it actually happened” and then you say “ah that doesn’t seem very believable”.

If you say it, they will believe you, since they know you.

If some random woman says she's been assaulted by a celebrity, then that's a much higher threshold to cross. Look at the accusations around Justin Bieber - he has proof he wasn't even where she said the assaults took place at the time she said they did. He was booked into a hotel but didn't go there, it was a diversion, and went somewhere else entirely instead, with reciepts, photos, video etc to prove it. So should we still believe his accuser?

Or Syl Fox. Another example. Say you've been assaulted by a celebrity = money, book deals, fame. Not saying it doesn't happen - of course it does - but the threshold to believe it is higher.

Women are people too. Whether you believe someone or not depends on a lot of factors.

bladespin

KiKi III wrote: »

This is it.

Almost every woman I know in real life has a story. Some of it is “just” sexual misconduct where they were felt up by a creep, but a shockingly high number are serious sexual assaults and rape.

No man I know in real life has been falsely accused, this is a widely exaggerated threat that’s used to scare men into not believing women.

There have been several high profile trials, where the accused was found innocent too.

It's not an argument I want to make just saying the danger for both is real.

Hodors Appletart

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

How many men do you know first hand who have had false accusations made against them?

My dad. Twice.

First time my mother's sister accused him of touching up her daughter (12 or 13 at the time). It allegedly happened at my 21st birthday party and ruined the night. What actually happened was my dad was dancing with his niece in the early part of the night, my mam's sister saw this and made up all sorts.

Second time she accused my dad, and another of her brothers-in-law who had since died, of raping her in the 1970s. Her twisted story came crashing down when she insisted on details that couldn't have been true for various reasons (cars used for example)

it tore my mam's family apart and one of my mam's brothers (also brother of the accuser) "believed" her just because she made an accusation.

That twisted bitch made my dad's, and by extension my mother and my siblings, life hell for a few years.

KiKi III

KiKi III wrote: »

Luckily nobody here is talking about all men then...

But you said - paraphrasing - it's because they are afraid to examine their own or their peers behavour. It isn't is what I'm saying. Either they think their behavour is fine, in which case they won't "examine" it, or they don't condone it. There isn't anything in between.

KiKi III

bladespin wrote: »

There have been several high profile trials, where the accused was found innocent too.

It's not an argument I want to make just saying the danger for both is real.

Rape is incredibly difficult to prove in court.

Most accused say “Yes, we had sex and it was consensual.” So it becomes her word against his at which point it’s incredibly difficult to prove the allegation beyond reasonable doubt.

Which means many rapists walk free.

bladespin

KiKi III wrote: »

Rape is incredibly difficult to prove in court.

Most accused say “Yes, we had sex and it was consensual.” So it becomes her word against his at which point it’s incredibly difficult to prove the allegation beyond reasonable doubt.

Which means many rapists walk free.

What happened to innocent until proven then???

The thing about the politicization of things like this too though, is a kind of resistance developes...

I don't know about this case (only from this thread..), and in the rugby trial up the north I kind of thought that going in with the intention of sleeping with one person was a very different thing to getting three wayd or whatever..

But like before that trial up north in particular I had never heard someone strongly not believing an accuser..

seamus

bladespin wrote: »

Just referring to the mistrust quote the accusations, it's a very scary time to be male these days, even one who hasn't done anything wrong. A rumour is enough to damn you.

As a man, I'm going to call bullsh1t on this.

I don't go about my daily business worrying that a random woman on the street is going to claim I raped her.

I don't avoid being in one-to-one meetings with female colleagues so that I have a "witness".

I don't text my mates when I get home from a night out so that they know I went straight home.

I don't live my life in fear that there is a woman out there who will find me at a vulnerable point and make an accusation.

These are all actual fears that women have. Actions they take to avoid becoming victims of a physical sexual assault.


I don't know any men who have been accused of a sex crime. I don't even know any men there are "rumours" about. Beyond keeping some control over what comes out of your mouth and keeping your hands to yourself, men don't take any precautions to avoid becoming victims of a false allegation. And they don't need to either.

If you are a man who is "very scared" that your behaviour might lead to being accused of sexual misconduct, that says more about you and your behaviour than anything else. I am not in the tiniest little bit scared.

KiKi III

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But you said - paraphrasing - it's because they are afraid to examine their own or their peers behavour. It isn't is what I'm saying. Either they think their behavour is fine, in which case they won't "examine" it, or they don't condone it. There isn't anything in between.

Why are men more likely to believe a man than a woman when every study done shows false allegations are rare?

And I repeat, I’m not saying they never, ever happen; I’m saying that they are statistically rare.

So why do men so often choose not to believe women?

KiKi III

KiKi III wrote: »

Rape is incredibly difficult to prove in court.

Most accused say “Yes, we had sex and it was consensual.” So it becomes her word against his at which point it’s incredibly difficult to prove the allegation beyond reasonable doubt.

Which means many rapists walk free.

Well if you have a good solicitor they should be able to poke holes in the defendant's account. Also it's probably a bad idea to take a case with only "he said, she said" evidence.

Of course the converse is true, the defendant's solicitor will try to make the plaintiff look as bad as possible, which will make it a horrendous experience for the plaintiff.

It's the justice system we have. Guilty people often walk free.

bladespin

seamus wrote: »

As a man, I'm going to call bullsh1t on this.

I don't go about my daily business worrying that a random woman on the street is going to claim I raped her.

I don't avoid being in one-to-one meetings with female colleagues so that I have a "witness".

I don't text my mates when I get home from a night out so that they know I went straight home.

I don't live my life in fear that there is a woman out there who will find me at a vulnerable point and make an accusation.

These are all actual fears that women have. Actions they take to avoid becoming victims of a physical sexual assault.


I don't know any men who have been accused of a sex crime. I don't even know any men there are "rumours" about. Beyond keeping some control over what comes out of your mouth and keeping your hands to yourself, men don't take any precautions to avoid becoming victims of a false allegation. And they don't need to either.

If you are a man who is "very scared" that your behaviour might lead to being accused of sexual misconduct, that says more about you and your behaviour than anything else. I am not in the tiniest little bit scared.

As a father I'm calling bullsh1t on that too, I worry about my boys (they're small but still), the slightest thing can be misread and turned into something it's not.

KiKi III

bladespin wrote: »

What happened to innocent until proven then???

It’s a pillar of modern democracy, and it’s imperfect.

Sometimes guilty people walk free, sometimes innocent people are imprisoned.

The system isn’t perfect, and it’s particularly poor in terms of achieving convictions for sexual violence.

KiKi III

KiKi III wrote: »

Why are men more likely to believe a man than a woman when every study done shows false allegations are rare?

And I repeat, I’m not saying they never, ever happen; I’m saying that they are statistically rare.

So why do men so often choose not to believe women?

The cases outlined by a previous poster where majority male juries decided more rape convictions in Ireland than majority female juries, who didn't convict a single defendant kind of contradicts your statement that men believe other men by default. I've never seen this to be the case, ever. Men always believe women over other men in my experience. Unless the woman has a history of lying of course and the man doesn't.

bladespin

KiKi III wrote: »

It’s a pillar of modern democracy, and it’s imperfect.

Sometimes guilty people walk free, sometimes innocent people are imprisoned.

The system isn’t perfect, and it’s particularly poor in terms of achieving convictions for sexual violence.

I totally agree but you're judging people and labelling them, even after they've been tried.

KiKi III

bladespin wrote: »

As a father I'm calling bullsh1t on that too, I worry about my boys (they're small but still), the slightest thing can be misread and turned into something it's not.

Do you worry about them being victims of sexual violence?

If not, why not?

KiKi III

bladespin wrote: »

I totally agree but you're judging people and labelling them, even after they've been tried.

I haven’t judged or labelled anyone. Are you mistaking me with somebody else?

paw patrol

i know one guy an acquaintance but Id know him well.


He had an ONS with a girl in dublin - met in niteclub in city centre.
She was engaged so we can only presume she was caught by her fella or felt guilty the next day but contacted the gardai to say he raped her.



But he had to go into the station and was grilled for hours. Luckily the taxi man insofar as he could backed his version.


Nothing ever happened afterward

bladespin

KiKi III wrote: »

Do you worry about them being victims of sexual violence?

If not, why not?

Yes, I do. They're my children, just because they're boys doesn't make them immune.