College consent crisis: students forced or threatened into sex

duffman13

"The combination of the lack of or inability to give consent and the tactics used in these incidents most closely correspond to the legal definition of rape used in Ireland."

From the article, anyone know where the full research is published? Staggering statistics if true but the above quote makes me want to see what they class as consent/rape. As previous research done tends to have a researcher apply criteria that even the participants wouldn't classify as unwanted approaches etc. Be interesting to see the detail though

2u2me

These 'studies' always have the same problems behind them.

They do the same thing every few years.

They usually contain non-response bias- estimates are usually too high because students who have been sexually assaulted are more likely to fill out survey

In past surveys people were never asked "Were you raped", "Were you sexually assaulted" because such direct question are known to yield low numbers.

Instead they frame it such things as "have you ever experienced unwanted touching?", "Have you ever been kissed without your consent" "have you ever been kissed without your active ongoing, voluntary agreement?"

Of course triggering any of these conditions would mean you have been sexually assaulted.

I would like to see what questions were asked in this survey.

eviltwin

double jobbing wrote: »

But 12 percent of men in college?

1 in 8, in a four year or less period?

Seems excessive alright but male rape is vastly underreported. Who knows? We will probably never know for certain the extent of sexual abuse in colleges or anywhere else in the country. I’m a mature student and have the benefit of age and experience but my younger classmates are horny and naive and I can see how they can find themselves in situations that get out of control.

2u2me

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Perhaps they are less likely to drink to excess and are in better control of the situation as a consequence. Or maybe they imply a knowledge of martial arts.

Asian flush is a thing

suicide_circus

Judging by these findings 3rd level institutions in Ireland are extremely dangerous and depraved places. This is warzone levels of sexual violence.

Rodin

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Things change, do you struggle with change, differences of opinion?

I struggle with opinions which go against the rules of science. They are not free to be changed at will.

Rodin

2u2me wrote: »

These 'studies' always have the same problems behind them.

They do the same thing every few years.

They usually contain non-response bias- estimates are usually too high because students who have been sexually assaulted are more likely to fill out survey

In past surveys people were never asked "Were you raped", "Were you sexually assaulted" because such direct question are known to yield low numbers.

Instead they frame it such things as "have you ever experienced unwanted touching?", "Have you ever been kissed without your consent" "have you ever been kissed without your active ongoing, voluntary agreement?"

Of course triggering any of these conditions would mean you have been sexually assaulted.

I would like to see what questions were asked in this survey.

I've experienced unwanted touching when extended the sign of peace at mass. Never reported it.

The major issue here is that those conducting these surveys have an agenda. And they will adjust their questions, reporting, definitions to suit their agenda.
It is highly dangerous.

Why don't they publish a league table ranking the colleges? That way students can see which one is safest?

double jobbing

double jobbing wrote: »

I'd like to see what percent identify as non binary in the Irish college system.


As late as 10 years ago the man on the street thought non binary was a mathematical term.

attention seekers all they are

Geuze

Rodin wrote: »

The major issue here is that those conducting these surveys have an agenda. And they will adjust their questions, reporting, definitions to suit their agenda.
It is highly dangerous.

++++++1000%, yes.

2u2me

Rodin wrote: »

The major issue here is that those conducting these surveys have an agenda. And they will adjust their questions, reporting, definitions to suit their agenda.
It is highly dangerous.

The very point of science is to remove our bias'. That's why it's so effective. It doesn't matter who is conducting the study as long as they follow the proper procedure(which includes publishing findings that contradict one's interests). Which I bet they haven't done here.

Chris_Heilong

double jobbing wrote: »

I'd like to see what percent identify as non binary in the Irish college system.


As late as 10 years ago the man on the street thought non binary was a mathematical term.

That was only about 3 years ago in fairness, this "new" way of thinking has been trust upon us and we have been told accept this or you are a "some thing negative sounding".

Rodin

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

That was only about 3 years ago in fairness, this "new" way of thinking has been trust upon us and we have been told accept this or you are a "some thing negative sounding".

I certainly won't be told that a male can become a female....

Randy Archer

The Belfast Rape trial, if comments on social media are to be considered , proves that a lot of adults and youth are worryingly clueless on what consent is , especially when drink is involved (which gets messy in court ,and can be tricky ie was consent capable of being given etc ) some extremely ignorant thick as muck declarations were spouted by both sides of the argument it was frightening

People are getting pissy about this so called gender balance issue and ghastly feminists

Well folks, rape laws and the idea of rape does make it clear that it’s the men who gotta check themselves before they wreck themselves as women can’t legally “rape” men.(Irish law definition of rape ) Assault yes but not rape. So ya, men gotta be awake and make sure consent is obtained , no point whinging about what women do

suicide_circus

Randy Archer wrote: »

it’s the men who gotta check themselves before they wreck themselves as women can’t legally “rape” men.(Irish law definition of rape ) Assault yes but not rape. So ya, men gotta be awake and make sure consent is obtained , no point whinging about what women do

written consent presumably?

Randy Archer

suicide_circus wrote: »

written consent presumably?

Trying to be humorous ?

Ficheall

They include "unwanted efforts to establish a sexual relationship" under their definition of harassment.. I've only had a brief look at the report yet, but I really hope they qualify that a little further..

Also exposure to sexist materials or jokes as sexual harassment.

Rodin

Murder The_Pair_Of Yis! wrote: »

Let's be honest, most of these 'rapes' were just regret over drunken sex.

Especially the Belfast trial.
2 innocent men.

The_Brood

Simply having consent classes is like throwing a glass of water at a volcano. Not gonna do much.

The problem is all of society, in Ireland and otherwise, constructs people and men in particular to have the tools to be manipulative abusers, whether they use them or not.

From the methods of becoming successful and popular in school, college, passing job interviews, becoming valued high in society...it's all about how good of a liar and manipulator you are, masked as how "confident" you are, always knowing to say the right things, being "funny" to get people's guard down, convincing others you have one set of intentions when in reality you have others, being a "go-getter" who will "not take no for an answer" - those who successfully display these traits are rewarded by society, by both men and women, in all kinds of different ways. And those are exactly the traits that enable someone to think they can sexually obtain something from someone else. The vast majority of all this sexual assault is not carried out by loner creeps living in cardboard boxes, it's carried out by at least somewhat popular, successful, 'socially intelligent' people. Or at least by those that are then protected by institutions that surprise surprise, are run by said popular, successful, 'socially intelligent' people who wouldn't want to get themselves in trouble if they were exposed as doing the same thing.

Basically all of society, everything, from schools to job interviews needs to be destroyed and rebuilt from the bottom up. A completely new set of values needs to be established.

Rodin

Murder The_Pair_Of Yis! wrote: »

What a load of crap.

I concur.
Load of rubbish.

seamus

double jobbing wrote: »

I asked the missus once about some similar stats I read once...

I'd be fairly sure that the kind of person who uses the word "leftists" is the last person that women will open up to about sexual assault.

Practically all of my wife's friends have been the victim of some form of sexual assault within their lives. Varying from an aggressive grope from a stranger right up to rape.

The extent of this cannot be overstated.

Randy Archer

The_Brood wrote: »

Simply having consent classes is like throwing a glass of water at a volcano. Not gonna do much.

The problem is all of society, in Ireland and otherwise, constructs people and men in particular to have the tools to be manipulative abusers, whether they use them or not.

From the methods of becoming successful and popular in school, college, passing job interviews, becoming valued high in society...it's all about how good of a liar and manipulator you are, masked as how "confident" you are, always knowing to say the right things, being "funny" to get people's guard down, convincing others you have one set of intentions when in reality you have others, being a "go-getter" who will "not take no for an answer" - those who successfully display these traits are rewarded by society, by both men and women, in all kinds of different ways. And those are exactly the traits that enable someone to think they can sexually obtain something from someone else. The vast majority of all this sexual assault is not carried out by loner creeps living in cardboard boxes, it's carried out by at least somewhat popular, successful, 'socially intelligent' people. Or at least by those that are then protected by institutions that surprise surprise, are run by said popular, successful, 'socially intelligent' people who wouldn't want to get themselves in trouble if they were exposed as doing the same thing.

Basically all of society, everything, from schools to job interviews needs to be destroyed and rebuilt from the bottom up. A completely new set of values needs to be established.

Lol, tear down and what ? The very same people WILL occupy the said positions again because of their skills as a manipulator

Attitudes towards sexual encounters and consent need to change . A start would be an education of what being violated can do to people and of course what consent is . Not everyone is evil to the core

There are scenarios where men will use the legal defence , and genuinely do so, that they had a genuine belief that consent was present . Perhaps if they realised that they take into account all scenarios , or are taught to do so, they’d avoid like a plague these situations. I doubt any man wants to endure a prosecution for such a crime especially if they were innocent or least have a genuine defence . For many, an acquittal will still not remove the stain in the eyes of people who don’t like the verdict

Consent classes should be worthwhile

As for sexual assault , I ain’t a namby pamby type of person , but can’t think of anyone who thinks assault , or imposing oneself on another , never mind sexual assault , is cool or something to be laughed at . I’d reckon most people don’t think so either

The cops and the courts (made up of a lot of women btw) take this stuff lightly either , it to mention the JURY

Wibbs

Murder The_Pair_Of Yis! wrote: »

What a load of crap.

Aye I've read some utter ballsology in my time, but that takes the biscuit. Today at least. It's early yet...

Anyone who believes and marks out "funny", "successful", "confident", "popular" and "socially intelligent" as negatives says much about the position they are coming from. Let me guess? Hates "extroverts" too? So dour, failed, unconfident, unpopular and socially stupid people are the positive ideal? Jaysis.

Translation: I see others do well and assume that being popular, successful and socially involved must mean one has to be a liar or a manipulator and abuser. I mean what else could be the reason? And being male especially. Well of course. Anything male is baaaad m'kay? Female is all good, unless it's been contaminated by the dastardly male. I feel I don't fit in or feel I can succeed in the world around me, therefore it's the world that's wrong and must change to suit me. So long as I don't have to take much responsibility if it does. That wouldn't be manipulation of course. :rolleyes:

No, I think early as it is, that takes the biscuit alright.

seamus

Randy Archer wrote: »

As for sexual assault , I ain’t a namby pamby type of person , but can’t think of anyone who thinks assault , or imposing oneself on another , never mind sexual assault , is cool or something to be laughed at . I’d reckon most people don’t think so either

Indeed, there's a problem in the framing of this discussion.

There's agreement that sexual assault is abhorrent. Across all genders and ages.

There's agreement that sexual assault is rife. Against women to the main extent, but men and children are far from immune.

Of course, these two don't match up. If we all agree sexual assault is abhorrent, then how is it occurring? How are the perps allowed to get away with it?

In some quarters this leads to a belief that men are complicit. That men see other men doing it, and ignore it, or cheerlead it on. That men speak in public about being against it, but in private allow it to happen.

But since this is not the experience of most men, there's a resentment about being called a rape enabler because of your gender. Understandably.

Thus, both sides come to the conclusion that somebody is lying. Either men are complicit and they don't want to admit it, or women are over-reporting instances of sexual assault.

The truth is more complex, and is also option C - sexual assault is occurring at the levels reported, but men are not complicit.

The reality is that assaults are carried out by a statistical minority of men, underneath the radar of the majority, but they can do so because of social and cultural norms (across all genders), that seek to undermine reports of sexual assault, and give the accused a greater benefit of the doubt than another crime might be afforded.

The complexity of these social norms can't be downplayed. Women jurors (for example) are known to be less likely to convict for rape than male jurors.

This is where consent classes play the greatest role. They educate us not only on what is expected of us, but what is expected of others. Principles such as, "don't bring a drunk person to bed" are much easier to enforce on others when they have a broad social buy in than when they're a personal rule that you stick by.

Nermal

seamus wrote: »

The extent of this cannot be overstated.

It absolutely can, all you have to do is attempt to redefine the generally accepted meaning of the word 'harassment'. Did you even read the thread?

Ficheall wrote: »

They include "unwanted efforts to establish a sexual relationship" under their definition of harassment.. I've only had a brief look at the report yet, but I really hope they qualify that a little further..

Also exposure to sexist materials or jokes as sexual harassment.

freshpopcorn

My view in this is they can be a few people out there who doesn’t know what rape and sexual assault is. Now include to types of people in this those who may think they can sleep with somebody who is passed out and those who think having somebody chat you up is sexual assault. But they aren’t overly common.
Re write the laws regarding rape and sexual assault in Ireland to take in Today’s environment. Include male rape, look at the age of consent, etc.
Have it done by people living in the real World and not somebody with agenda.
Then focus on teaching about consent at age apprise levels during education.

gauchesnell

Murder The_Pair_Of Yis! wrote: »

Let's be honest, most of these 'rapes' were just regret over drunken sex.

they are not and that attitude is the issue

gauchesnell

freshpopcorn wrote: »

My view in this is they can be a few people out there who doesn’t know what rape and sexual assault is. Now include to types of people in this those who may think they can sleep with somebody who is passed out and those who think having somebody chat you up is sexual assault. But they aren’t overly common.
Re write the laws regarding rape and sexual assault in Ireland to take in Today’s environment. Include male rape, look at the age of consent, etc.
Have it done by people living in the real World and not somebody with agenda.
Then focus on teaching about consent at age apprise levels during education.

Consent training in universities and colleges is done by people who have been trained...not anyone with an agenda to be the best of my knowledge. Mostly professionals who deal in trauma (counsellors/psychologists etc)

It is about education

gauchesnell

paw patrol wrote: »

On the surface yes , but the devil is in the detail.


What is going to be taught?
Is it going to be fair and place onus on all parties ?

Or is it going to be a demonisation of men and an extension of the horrific (how is it actually legal?) romeo and julette laws that we have for under age.


Given how the wind is blowing in academia and colleges ? I wouldn't hold much hope of it being fair and reasonable.

You do realise this is a national roll out of consent classess - run by counsellors/psychologists or others trained in dealing in trauma. All very about board and clear

Nermal

gauchesnell wrote: »

Consent training in universities and colleges is done by people who have been trained.

They were trained in the same institutions that did this 'research'.

gauchesnell

Nermal wrote: »

They were trained in the same institutions that did this 'research'.

they werent????

Most are practising psychologists/physiologists or counsellors who did their professional training somewhere else. Depends on the university of course but NO these are professionals who can identify and deal with trauma.

are people on this thread for real.

The people running this training have no agenda - they are the ones who see students who have been assaulted.

I work in a university so I can speak from personal experience (I am not a psychologist).