College consent crisis: students forced or threatened into sex

Rodin

KaneToad wrote: »

"While the Sexual Experiences Survey (SES) is not based on a representative sample, the number of responses considered sufficient indication of a serious problem"

The sample is not representative of the population. It is a self selecting, online sample.

It gets worse...

Journalist integrity gone to the dogs.

HamSarris

Increase in sexual assaults in recent years – 0%
Increase in reporting of sexual assaults in recent years – 100%
Increase in reporting of awkward/regretful/drunk interactions re-interpreted as sexual assaults – 348,000%

Homelander

The whole survey is nonsense and built on sand by people who clearly wanted to manipulate data for results.

52pc of female, 49pc of non-binary, and 27pc of male students experienced unwanted touching, completed or attempted penetration.

I mean. Unwanted touching and literal rape lumped in together?

What's next - a survey that says 52 percent of people experienced verbal abuse or attempted murder. Ireland's crime crisis.

KaneToad

HamSarris wrote: »

Increase in sexual assaults in recent years – 0%
Increase in reporting of sexual assaults in recent years – 100%
Increase in reporting of awkward/regretful/drunk interactions re-interpreted as sexual assaults – 348,000%

Increase in reporting of sexual assaults is a good thing. I'd like each and every sexual assault to be reported. Sexual assault is an horrendous crime.

Rodin

Homelander wrote: »

The whole survey is nonsense and built on sand by people who clearly wanted to manipulate data for results.



I mean. Unwanted touching and literal rape lumped in together?

What's next - a survey that says 52 percent of people experienced verbal abuse or attempted murder. Ireland's crime crisis.

I don't believe 48% of women have never experienced at least "unwanted touching".

hatrickpatrick

Deleted User wrote: »

First key finding on page one - this is extremely unambiguous and worrying. This is definitely very far away from "did someone say something you perceived as harassment" type of occurrence. I have to wonder were some taking the piss filling out the survey. If not then this is a shockingly high level of rape, as rape is what it is. Definitely wasn't like that back in the late 80s / early 90s.

Key word is "incapacitation". When you dig deeper, this tends to bracket "we both got messily drunk and woke up in bed with memory gaps or regrets" in as "rape" even when both parties were blacked out and both drunkenly consented.

Despite the establishment's attempts to do so, the vast majority of young people will never accept this as anything remotely resembling rape or sexual assault - because the vast majority of young people use alcohol as a crutch to get past the ingrained sexual repression and self-depreciation baked into the Irish psyche by years of theocratic bullsh!t.

In order for a study like this to be taken seriously, at least in my view, it needs to

(a) make a clear and definitive distinction between sex which is genuinely without consent, and sex in which consent is questionable due to intoxication, rather than lumping both together as "rape", and

(b) make a clear and definitive distinction between sexual harassment (which by the definition of harassment has to be something which persists after a rebuke) and unwanted sexual attention, which is just part of living in a world in which potential partners aren't mind readers who already know in advance whether you're going to reciprocate or rebuke their advances.

Until these two major issues with the conversation around sexual harassment and assault are dealt with, everything from surveys like this to the #metoo movement has an impassable shroud of doubt cloaked over it. Because again, while hardcore feminists and activists may agree with such repressive definitions, the vast majority of ordinary young people - male and female - simply don't live their lives that way.

To simplify this with a real world analogy: By many metrics used by feminists and activists in this arena, almost every single patron, male and female, of Copper Face Jacks has been raped probably multiple times, because almost every single patron, male and female, of Copper Face Jacks has almost certainly at some point during their years of going there, woken up the next morning in bed with someone they would never have gone near without beer goggles. That is not something which discriminates by gender in my experience. If you're a sexually active young person on the binge drinking and nightlife scene who hasn't woken up next to someone you can barely remember chatting up and think "ah Jaysus, how did I end up here and what's his/her name again?" then I'd venture to say that you're one of the lucky few. That's certainly how it was when I was in college ten years ago and it was very much a universal thing and not a niche.

If you include this kind of behaviour in your definition of rape, then you're not just asking for sexual assault to be clamped down on, you're also asking for young people to change literally their entire outlook on socialising during their college years. That just isn't going to happen. We can criticise it, condemn it, talk about how awful it is, analyse it and attack it until the cows come home, but binge drinking culture is an everyday part of life for the vast majority of young people in Ireland, and in that context, expecting people to separate alcohol from sex is utterly farcical.

spurious

double jobbing wrote: »

I asked the missus once about some similar stats I read once.

I'd say, currently, she has about 10 friends she socialises with to varying degrees of regularity.

Of these, probably 3 are her very best friends who would confide in her about anything etc.

Not to mention dozens more she would have grown up with but like us all has lost touch with down the years. School, college, estate she grew up on, et al.

In all those years, she can recall one, one girl, who she knows to have been a victim of sexual assault.

Yet most leftists on here would probably claim a majority, or a large minority, of women they know have been assaulted.

This story should be taken with a pinch, actually with a council road gritting truckful of early March salt.

Your missus is lucky.

JimmyVik

Feisar wrote: »

I think it was the turn of phrase, the poster wasn't referring to their actions past or future specifically.

Practically got accused of being a rapist .. on a message board.
What have we come to? Wouldnt like to get within the same town as yer wan in real life. God knows where you would end up. Jail probably. Accused of all sorts.

paw patrol

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Reeves has been pictured doing this in many pictures. To some its hyper PC maybe, but you cant be too safe.


Protect Keanu Reeves at all costs.

the media (even a few irish publications) used to mock Mike Pence on how he never met women alone and if he had to he'd bring his wife.



Then #metoo kicked off and it was clear Pence was a visionary

suicide_circus

KaneToad wrote: »

"While the Sexual Experiences Survey (SES) is not based on a representative sample, the number of responses considered sufficient indication of a serious problem"

The sample is not representative of the population. It is a self selecting, online sample.

Homelander wrote: »

The whole survey is nonsense and built on sand by people who clearly wanted to manipulate data for results.



I mean. Unwanted touching and literal rape lumped in together?

What's next - a survey that says 52 percent of people experienced verbal abuse or attempted murder. Ireland's crime crisis.

The people who put this survey together are shytehawks looking to inflate the numbers in order to secure additional funding. End of.

Zulu

Have to say a few gems coming through on this thread.
Bambis idea to move dangerous campus's to online for the sake of the children is inspired.
And Rodins league table could be used to great effect. Indeed, I'd consider taking it a step further and expanding on that table to identify particularly dangerous courses.

As Bambi so rightly pointed out, I'll bet the sloppiness of the surveys wouldn't be long getting corrected and the evident bias (I can assume which is leveraged to attain more funding) not long being removed.

A much more meaningful picture could then be established, and funding and resources allocated to those who actually need them and can help. Not those intent on sowing divisions along gender lines or engaging in persecution politics.

Sheep_shear

paw patrol wrote: »

the media (even a few irish publications) used to mock Mike Pence on how he never met women alone and if he had to he'd bring his wife.



Then #metoo kicked off and it was clear Pence was a visionary

Yeah, I never got the hate. I'm pretty much of the same opinion as Pence. But boy has there been a change in my experience of wider society. At work if a meeting if happening with a man and a woman just in the room (even if they're gonna dial in other people) you can bet that door will remain wide open. Blinds are pretty much never shut in those rooms either. Doing interviews, we require a man and a woman be present at all times. This usually translates into our HR rep, sitting at the table and browsing the internet while we actually do the interview. Which is just awful.

I used to enjoy being a mentor to interns/new grads but have decided that's too risky. Don't do any of those stands at college career fairs either. Sad but what are you gonna do? Better to not even have yourself in the position where something could be alleged.

Ferris_Bueller

I think we do have a problem in Ireland, while some will probably dismiss it and say we aren't as bad as some countries, I still think we could do a hell of a lot better and that a lot of young men in the country either don't know how consent works or else just blatantly ignore it.

I was in college in Ireland from 2010-2014, to say there is a 'rape culture' might be over the top, but there was definitely some sort of cattle mart feel to being in nightclubs during this period, where if a girl was in a nightclub it was seen as fair game to approach her or stare at her or slap her arse or whatever. Obviously the majority of people did not behave this way but I would say there were enough to suggest this is something that would make consent classes or some form of education around it worthwhile.

I would say every single one of my friends who are girls have some sort of story of lads doing very inappropriate things to them on multiple occasions, I would notice it myself even still if you are out with any girls there are many moments on a night out where there is uncomfortable attention from men.

In a way I can almost see how it happens, in the 'lad culture' that is embraced by so many young men nights can revolve around pulling women and there can be a certain pressure to do so, combined with the stereotypical view that men should make the first move, etc. it can lead to young lads full of beer trying things that they might not normally do.

*I am sure some of this happens towards lads too, just from what I have noticed over the years it appears to be more common and frequent towards women.

The Mighty Quinn

Deleted

Eric Cartman

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I think we do have a problem in Ireland, while some will probably dismiss it and say we aren't as bad as some countries, I still think we could do a hell of a lot better and that a lot of young men in the country either don't know how consent works or else just blatantly ignore it.

I was in college in Ireland from 2010-2014, to say there is a 'rape culture' might be over the top, but there was definitely some sort of cattle mart feel to being in nightclubs during this period, where if a girl was in a nightclub it was seen as fair game to approach her or stare at her or slap her arse or whatever. Obviously the majority of people did not behave this way but I would say there were enough to suggest this is something that would make consent classes or some form of education around it worthwhile.

I would say every single one of my friends who are girls have some sort of story of lads doing very inappropriate things to them on multiple occasions, I would notice it myself even still if you are out with any girls there are many moments on a night out where there is uncomfortable attention from men.

In a way I can almost see how it happens, in the 'lad culture' that is embraced by so many young men nights can revolve around pulling women and there can be a certain pressure to do so, combined with the stereotypical view that men should make the first move, etc. it can lead to young lads full of beer trying things that they might not normally do.

*I am sure some of this happens towards lads too, just from what I have noticed over the years it appears to be more common and frequent towards women.

I think things have gotten better, I remember one incident in college in 2007 where a lad in my course grabbed a womans arse and got a dig to the face in the smoking area, we all had a word saying ' you know well you shouldn't have done that and deserved the dig'

consent classes are a good thing to teach people that arse grabbing etc.. is not alright.

the problem is now we have people being judged by modern standards for doing it historically, its not alright now and everyone knows it, but shaming somebody for doing it in the 70s/80s is a bit too much.

but we have the other problem of where things are going too far into 'everything is assault' , putting your arm around somebody, touching their leg, chatting them up at a bar or dancing against them on a dance floor is now being considered in the same category as grabbing somebodys arse/breasts etc.. , there needs to be a distinct line drawn between trying it on with somebody and sexually assaulting them.

JimmyVik

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think things have gotten better, I remember one incident in college in 2007 where a lad in my course grabbed a womans arse and got a dig to the face in the smoking area, we all had a word saying ' you know well you shouldn't have done that and deserved the dig'

consent classes are a good thing to teach people that arse grabbing etc.. is not alright.

the problem is now we have people being judged by modern standards for doing it historically, its not alright now and everyone knows it, but shaming somebody for doing it in the 70s/80s is a bit too much.

but we have the other problem of where things are going too far into 'everything is assault' , putting your arm around somebody, touching their leg, chatting them up at a bar or dancing against them on a dance floor is now being considered in the same category as grabbing somebodys arse/breasts etc.. , there needs to be a distinct line drawn between trying it on with somebody and sexually assaulting them.

I finished uni in 1999. The students union had an award for "Slapper of the year". The same girl won it 2 years in a row.

There was a competition in the college bar where things got more risque through the rounds. In the final round the last 4 girls were practically shagging guys who were queuing up. The one who won was proud of her achievement and even went around for about a week with her slapper of the year sash on her letting anyone grab a hold of her tits who wanted.
The lecturers even called her up at the beginning of lectures to let her show off her trophy to cheers from both men and women.

A guy won stud of the year. Similar shenanigans to get that award.
His next week going around the campus and girls slapping his arse and grabbing his crotch to "test the good". Lots of them even stuck their tongues down his throat for their bit of him.

Wonder how that would go down today.

Eric Cartman

JimmyVik wrote: »

I finished uni in 1999. The students union had an award for "Slapper of the year". The same girl won it 2 years in a row.

There was a competition in the college bar where things got more risque through the rounds. In the final round the last 4 girls were practically shagging guys who were queuing up. The one who won was proud of her achievement and even went around for about a week with her slapper of the year sash on her letting anyone grab a hold of her tits who wanted.
The lecturers even called her up at the beginning of lectures to let her show off her trophy to cheers from both men and women.

A guy won stud of the year. Similar shenanigans to get that award.
His next week going around the campus and girls slapping his arse and grabbing his crotch to "test the good". Lots of them even stuck their tongues down his throat for their bit of him.

Wonder how that would go down today.

not going to lie, that sounds like great fun and along as the participants are happy thats fine by me.

JimmyVik

Eric Cartman wrote: »

not going to lie, that sounds like great fun and along as the participants are happy thats fine by me.

Pretty sure I remember some of the participants, especially some of the girls expressed regret that they had taken part the next day.
Probably all glad there were no cameras around back in the day.

Eric Cartman

JimmyVik wrote: »

Pretty sure I remember some of the participants, especially some of the girls expressed regret that they had taken part the next day.
Probably all glad there were no cameras around back in the day.

thats the main thing. I think camera phones put this type of thing completely to bed. definitely changes the dynamic of what you'll participate in.

Id imagine some did regret participating, but thankfully regretting giving consent is not a crime, as much as some people would like to make it so.

hatrickpatrick

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I was in college in Ireland from 2010-2014, to say there is a 'rape culture' might be over the top, but there was definitely some sort of cattle mart feel to being in nightclubs during this period, where if a girl was in a nightclub it was seen as fair game to approach her or stare at her or slap her arse or whatever. Obviously the majority of people did not behave this way but I would say there were enough to suggest this is something that would make consent classes or some form of education around it worthwhile.

I would say every single one of my friends who are girls have some sort of story of lads doing very inappropriate things to them on multiple occasions, I would notice it myself even still if you are out with any girls there are many moments on a night out where there is uncomfortable attention from men.

Herein lies the exact problem though IMO. Obviously slapping someone's arse is sexual assault, no question there, but to approach someone in a social setting like a nightclub? There shouldn't be considered anything wrong with that at all as long as you feck off once you get rebuffed. Otherwise, how is anybody supposed to meet anyone else in a sexual or romantic context?

That's the whole problem with the era we're living in, things which are unfortunate but perfectly natural (being approached by someone you're not into) are being conflated with things that are actually wrong (non-consensual sexual touching such as a slap of the arse) and it's discrediting the entire movement. If someone is so introverted that they can't hack being approached by a stranger in a setting like the dancefloor of a nightclub, and they've already been offended before the person doing the approaching has been told that there's no interest, then in my honest opinion that person really shouldn't be hanging out in that setting to begin with, since the primary reason the vast majority of people go to such places is seeking sexual interest from someone of the relevant gender.

Should people wear a sign which says "approachable" to get around this? Should all dating be done only within circles of mutual friends and never with strangers? Should all dating be organised through social media apps or otherwise?

To suggest that approaching someone else and expressing a sexual interest is now "wrong" is, in my view, where this movement loses the room in terms of public opinion. As I've said many times before, what's actually being described here is the ideal world for folks with extreme introversion or social anxiety, but with the pretext that everyone else should behave that way to suit that minority, which is incredibly unfair and is just never going to fly.

upandcumming

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

where if a girl was in a nightclub it was seen as fair game to approach her

Ara would you give it a rest fella.

JimmyVik

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Herein lies the exact problem though IMO. Obviously slapping someone's arse is sexual assault, no question there, but to approach someone in a social setting like a nightclub? There shouldn't be considered anything wrong with that at all as long as you feck off once you get rebuffed. Otherwise, how is anybody supposed to meet anyone else in a sexual or romantic context?

That's the whole problem with the era we're living in, things which are unfortunate but perfectly natural (being approached by someone you're not into) are being conflated with things that are actually wrong (non-consensual sexual touching such as a slap of the arse) and it's discrediting the entire movement. If someone is so introverted that they can't hack being approached by a stranger in a setting like the dancefloor of a nightclub, and they've already been offended before the person doing the approaching has been told that there's no interest, then in my honest opinion that person really shouldn't be hanging out in that setting to begin with, since the primary reason the vast majority of people go to such places is seeking sexual interest from someone of the relevant gender.

Should people wear a sign which says "approachable" to get around this? Should all dating be done only within circles of mutual friends and never with strangers? Should all dating be organised through social media apps or otherwise?

To suggest that approaching someone else and expressing a sexual interest is now "wrong" is, in my view, where this movement loses the room in terms of public opinion. As I've said many times before, what's actually being described here is the ideal world for folks with extreme introversion or social anxiety, but with the pretext that everyone else should behave that way to suit that minority, which is incredibly unfair and is just never going to fly.

Wont be long til you will end up in court, or worse twitter, for swiping the wrong way on tinder or whatever the cool kids are using now