Sean Russell statue defaced overnight

gibsmedat

What is the point?

WrenBoy

They do it in America so its cool

blanch152

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

WrenBoy

blanch152 wrote: »

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

"Russell's legacy is deeply contested. Both Sinn Féin and Republican Sinn Féin continue to commemorate him as an Irish patriot. Others condemn him as a Nazi collaborator. It had been said he "cared little for Nazi ideology" and he was accused of being a communist spy.[10] Irish historian Brian Hanley suggests that Russell was not a Nazi but concludes that his letters to his German contacts "betray astonishing political naiveté".

Russell himself told the Germans that "I am not a Nazi. I’m not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland." and that "If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence, I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings attached"[11][12]

Erwin Lahousen said that Russell disagreed with Nazi philosophy and strongly rejected attempts to convert him"

Life isn't black and white.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

Collaborator? We weren't at war with Germany - we had been at war with Britain less than 20 years earlier and they had partitioned our nation on threat of 'immediate and terrible war'.

You know this yet you incessantly persist with your Anglo-centric take.

paw patrol

blanch152 wrote: »

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

you haven't a clue about irish history if you think that.
in fact, you are a moron .

Hrududu

Nice break for Luke Kelly

IRE60

there's an interesting podcast on Three Castles Burning on statues in Dublin and some of the controversy associated with them. Russell figures in the story. I dont know much about him, but they maintain he took the Machiavelli approach in dealing with the Germans 'my enemies enemy is my friend' type thing. Well worth a listen

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Collaborator? We weren't at war with Germany - we had been at war with Britain less than 20 years earlier and they had partitioned our nation on threat of 'immediate and terrible war'.

You know this yet you incessantly persist with your Anglo-centric take.

paw patrol wrote: »

you haven't a clue about irish history if you think that.
in fact, you are a moron .

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/

You might want to have a read of this, which sets out very clearly, the extent of IRA collaboration with the Nazis, including Russell's acts.

WrenBoy

IRE60 wrote: »

there's an interesting podcast on Three Castles Burning on statues in Dublin and some of the controversy associated with them. Russell figures in the story. I dont know much about him, but they maintain he took the Machiavelli approach in dealing with the Germans 'my enemies enemy is my friend' type thing. Well worth a listen

He also went to the Soviets and Americans to get arms and money. So I assume he's simultaneously a Nazi, Communist and Free Market Capitalist.

gibsmedat

Republicans sweating this morning not knowing whether to condemn or congratulate.

The absolute state of Irish Republicanism in 2020.

OptimusTractor

WrenBoy wrote: »

He also went to the Soviets and Americans to get arms and money. So I assume he's simultaneously a Nazi, Communist and Free Market Capitalist.

But he was definitely not a pornstar.

imme

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Collaborator? We weren't at war with Germany - we had been at war with Britain less than 20 years earlier and they had partitioned our nation on threat of 'immediate and terrible war'.

You know this yet you incessantly persist with your Anglo-centric take.

From the Merriam Webster dictionary (one of the definitions of collaborator) :

"someone who works with another person or group"

I always thought the collaboration with the Nazis was a tough thing for the Shinners to explain/excuse,

Some things don't change.

For Forks Sake

WrenBoy wrote: »

He also went to the Soviets and Americans to get arms and money. So I assume he's simultaneously a Nazi, Communist and Free Market Capitalist.

Hodors Appletart

I'm not a shinner, I've never voted for them

but in the context of irish independence or struggle against britain I think it was ok for those involved to seek help from wherever it was available, be that nazi, commie or yank

i certainly wouldn't be ascribing sympathy to or agreement with those ideologies to those people and i feel it's nothing more than political point scoring in this day and age

did he seek help from an enemy of britain? yes he did

does that mean he was in agreement with nazi ideology? laughable to think this is true

rational people cannot think this to be true it's stupid

John Hutton

His statue was previously defaced years ago because he was a communist !

JohnnyFlash

No need for this. The problem with wanting statues torn down and defaced is that eventually the mob will come for your ones.

endainoz

gibsmedat wrote: »

Republicans sweating this morning not knowing whether to condemn or congratulate.

The absolute state of Irish Republicanism in 2020.

I'd say it's stronger than ever to be honest. More inclusive than it has been for years anyways, look at the GE.

Back to the point, was this guy anti gay or what? Dosent look like a defacing to me, more like a decoration.

gibsmedat

John Hutton wrote: »

His statue was previously defaced years ago because he was a communist !

It was defaced in 2005 by "anti fascists"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/anti-fascists-behead-statue-of-russell-26203251.html


Protected in 2020 by "anti fascists"

SouthWesterly

The rest writing of history should be a worrying trend.

Soon we'll only have the Santised version with what really happened forgotten.
We'll end up making the same mistakes again because no one will know the terrible repercussions they brought.

endainoz

SouthWesterly wrote: »

The rest writing of history should be a worrying trend.

Soon we'll only have the Santised version with what really happened forgotten.
We'll end up making the same mistakes again because no one will know the terrible repercussions they brought.

If only there was some way to document history physically on paper.....

Who the fcuk gets their history from statues?

osarusan

SouthWesterly wrote: »

The rest writing of history should be a worrying trend.

Soon we'll only have the Santised version with what really happened forgotten.
We'll end up making the same mistakes again because no one will know the terrible repercussions they brought.

I wouldn't disagree with your point but I also wouldn't see any reason to believe that the existing writing of history is always 'what really happened', or that it's always less agenda-laden than what it might be replaced with.

I lived in Japan for years and the content of their history textbooks has been an ongoing debate for decades. Different prefectures get to choose the textbooks (from an approved list) to be used in schools in that prefecture, so depending on how nationalist the politics was at prefectural govt level, the history textbook chosen will be more or less sanitised regarding Japan's WW2 and Pre-WW2 activities in China. Politics was literally controlling the (significantly different) versions of history that children would receive.

China objects whenever one of the more nationalist textbooks gets chosen, and there have been various attempts to come up with a textbook that has been agreed upon by both Japanese and Chinese historians, but politicians on both sides would rather use the issue as a political football than agree on it.

Nermal

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Collaborator? We weren't at war with Germany - we had been at war with Britain less than 20 years earlier and they had partitioned our nation on threat of 'immediate and terrible war'.

You know this yet you incessantly persist with your Anglo-centric take.

It gives me such pleasure to quote from the Edward Colston thread:

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Don't be such broflake, you'll be okay.

So here's the thing ... saying whether he was a Nazi collaborator or not is missing the point. The point was he worked closely together with the Nazis to further the IRAs goals. A party that were widely known at the time as extreme racists and enemies of freedom everywhere they went. Granted the Holocaust wasn't widely known about yet but the Nuremberg laws were.

Today we have most political parties who are happy to jump into bed with Sinn Fein to further their own agendas, despite their past. This is what Sean Russell did. Further your own ideology no matter what the cost. And had he succeeded, many of us wouldn't be here as Hitler didn't rate the "Celtic" Irish very high on his master race hierarchy of peoples. The Anglo Irish would have fared better.

Having said all that, they should leave his statue alone.

Dyr

I wonder will Varadker come out and clearly condemn this, given his previous statements.

Here's what German Intelligence thought of Russell:
“The Irish man was a hyper-sensitive Celt who, however willing he might be to use the Germans for his own political ends, regarded the Nazi philosophy as anathema... Russell was the only one of the I.R.A. with whom I dealt who was a real Irish Republican of the old school”.

I wonder if their opinion of Eoin O'Duffy was more flattering, eh Blanch?

biko

For a movement that started specifically with black Americans killed by law enforcement it has sure got wings.

ChikiChiki

Just walked by it 5 mins ago. Guards there and two lads cleaning it.

c.p.w.g.w

blanch152 wrote: »

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

He is also a Russian & American supporter, as he also went to those countries looking for ARMS

smurgen

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

He is also a Russian & American supporter, as he also went to those countries looking for ARMS

I'd say it's any port in a storm kind of thing. I have no strong feelings either way. But I wouldn't be outraged. It's just a bit of paint ffs.

jacool

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what is says under the statue i.e. how is he described there?

sabat

Rainbow cultists.