Sean Russell statue defaced overnight

whisky_galore

L1011 wrote: »

National Graves Association. Which is not "national" in terms of being a state body. Indeed I don't think they really recognise the state.

A sort of CIRA for dead people.

Hamsterchops

L1011 wrote: »

National Graves Association. Which is not "national" in terms of being a state body. Indeed I don't think they really recognise the state.

One wonders then why they didn't also erect a statue to Lord Haw-Haw ?

Fuascailteoir

Danzy wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if his statue came down in time. From a bourgeoisie left perspective, ie the modern left there would be issues there.

What issues?

whisky_galore

Hamsterchops wrote: »

One wonders then why they didn't also erect a statue to Lord Haw-Haw ?

Himself and the RA were not on friendly terms.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if his statue came down in time. From a bourgeoisie left perspective, ie the modern left there would be issues there.

Statues of Luke Kelly have been vandalised multiple times in the last few years. It has literally nothing to do with the left.

ChikiChiki

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Nazi collaborator :rolleyes: absolute degenerates


img

Poor Luke gets an awful time no matter where he goes.

It's about time the Luke Kelly statues were taken out of the locations they are in and put in a nice area where culture and heritage would be more appreciated. His music lives on through the generations today. An absolute legend.

touts

Russell was a opportunist facist as were most of Sinn Fein at the time. They have always just wrapped themselves in whatever political flag they believe will provide a cover for their activities. That Sinn Fein now wrap around themselves in an extreme Marxist philosophy shows just how the political spectrum is a circle not a straight line and the Nazi Party and Sinn Fein are side by side with just a thin weld separating them. The statue of Russell and all memorials of other political extremists be they left/right should be thorn down.

In terms of Luke Kelly: the statue which is regularly vandalised is not popular in the area and among Kelly's family and friends. It is a horrendous blight on the memory of the man. It's sad that the more popular and accepted statue is clearly now been dragged into this dispute. The council need to accept that no one wants the modern art monstrosity and dismantle it.

Eric Cartman

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Poor Luke gets an awful time no matter where he goes.

It's about time the Luke Kelly statues were taken out of the locations they are in and put in a nice area where culture and heritage would be more appreciated. His music lives on through the generations today. An absolute legend.

I have a feeling the Southside one was damaged to distract from the feral youth constantly defacing the Northside one. If the Northside one was put somewhere without so many idle hands it would be fine.

Niallof9

He didn't just die on a sub.

Seán Russell, the IRA chief of staff, spent the summer of 1940 in a ‘very large’ villa in the leafy Grunewald, near Berlin, surrounded by extensive grounds and parks, enjoying all the privileges of a diplomat with regard to access to food, petrol and other rationed goods. His villa contained radio gramophone facilities and an ‘excellent library’ equipped with ‘special war maps’ that enabled Russell to keep abreast of Germany’s stunning military victories that summer. As a registered representative of the Irish Republic he was accorded ‘every privilege possible’, including the use of a car and chauffeur for trips around Berlin and the German countryside and the services of a young Austrian aristocrat, who was appointed as his companion and interpreter. He was given access to the high-security Brandenburg military camp to study the latest techniques in sabotage and guerilla warfare, and met leading Nazis such as Foreign Minister Joachim Von Ribbentrop. Following the fall of France, Russell urged that the German high command make use of the IRA to strike at British forces in Northern Ireland as part of a general attack on Britain. His plans were accepted and incorporated into Operation Sealion (the plan for the invasion of Britain), a mark of the ‘respect and esteem’ in which Russell was held by the German military leadership. During August Russell was to return to Ireland to oversee the implementation of these plans, but on his journey home by U-boat he became ill and died. His body was buried at sea with full German naval honours.

a statement after first vanadalism in 1953 read:

Six million Jews, thousands of political dissidents, homosexuals, Roma people, Soviet prisoners of war and the disabled were put to death by the fascist hate machine that overran and terrified Europe from 1939 to 45. Sean Russell was one of many nationalist fanatics who looked to Hitler for political and military support in the IRA's quest to reunify Ireland at the point of the bayonets of the Gestapo. At the Wannsee Conference, the infamous Nazi gathering that planned the "Final Solution", the Jewish community in Ireland was marked down for annihilation. Having freed Ireland from British rule, the Nazis expected their collaborators to help them round up Dublin's Jews and ship them off to Auschwitz. That was the price Sean Russell was prepared to pay to end partition.

He was prepared to side with the nazis when our country was neutral. He trained with them. By 1940 some argue the allies knew some of the issues around Jewish ghettoes and the atrocities committed, reports by polish exiles etc just not the locations or depth of it. It doesn't matter what he thought of them. He did it and thats the fact. His naivete and stupidity alone should be condemned. Fighting in the rising or War of Independence doesn't absolve you from anything. Ditto DeValera signing the book, its a stain on our country. It could be argued our whole response in WW2 leaves a sort of black mark. Obviously we couldn't risk our destruction.

the idea people can slag FG about the blueshirts but SF's hard on for Russell gets a pass is such hypocrisy. A man who actively participated in military manouveres with the Germans in WW2. It doesn't make him a facist. But then again not all Germans were facist or nazis. Albert SPeer claimed he wasn't a facist or a nazi a mere apolitical technocrat . I mean clearly he was no matter what he saids. Less clear around Germans like Rommel. But again some of them had little choice if already involved. Russell and the IRA made a choice to join up with one of the most evil regimes in history, one that was known about by the time he died. They use the excuse of trying to win Ireland's freedom. Sure only at the cost of Europe and people. Ah yeah what did Ireland owe anyone anyhow. Lets take the same approach to climate change. "The World's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity" we could finally become a beach destination!

If silence or inaction today is seen as racism or supporting it, whats the difference with what Russell did where he actively supported it, no matter what he thought. its the same thing. Russell wasn't a facist. He wasn't a nazi. But he worked with them, against the greater good.

whatever about the statue we need to acknowledge the facts here. For many years he was the only Irish person who died active in the second World War that we honored with a statue.

Bonniedog

And what about leftie icon Frank Ryan? Why does he get a free pass on all of this?

IRA campaign after 1939 was stupid and Russell only got it approved through a procedural coup that got him a majority on Army Council after he had been thrown out! None of of his predecessors as Chief of Staff supported the venture or the seeking of German aid.

Statue should be left alone as commemoration of local person who was involved prominently in 1916 and Tan War.

PS. Russell was dead before the Wannsee conference.

Dyr

Bonniedog wrote: »

And what about leftie icon Frank Ryan? Why does he get a free pass on all of this?

IRA campaign after 1939 was stupid and Russell only got it approved through a procedural coup that got him a majority on Army Council after he had been thrown out! None of of his predecessors as Chief of Staff supported the venture or the seeking of German aid.

Statue should be left alone as commemoration of local person who was involved prominently in 1916 and Tan War.

PS. Russell was dead before the Wannsee conference.

The lefties tend not to mention Frank when it comes to collaboration, how long was he the IRAs represntative with Nazis again?

Although the poor man was in no fit state to colloborate with anyone after his spell in a Spanish prison

Niallof9

The problem with Frank Ryan is we don't have a statue of him in our city. And aren't SF "lefties" as well.

I mean the main issue for me is the disconnect -

Lieutenant Lahousen of German intelligence (the Abwer) said that Russell “found the Nazi philosophy to be anathema”.

Thats fair. But then why in the name of God would you join with it? Its the same thing, it amounts to legitimacy of it.

Its absolutely bonkers and thankfully he died on the sub. If Germany had invaded Ireland things would be probably very different.

Bonniedog

It has not been researched and not sure if there are documents in Moscow that might back it up, but it is perhaps significant that Ryan ended up in Berlin during the Soviet/Nazi alliance when they were swapping prisoners.

Ryan was in Spain under Comintern/NKVD command and would have been regarded as important enough as someone who was pushing Comintern policy withing IRA prior to 1933 and then led a left split into Congress.

Then again even Irish trots have blind spot when it comes to Stalinism here and in Spain even though Ryan's side slaughtered the poor fkers in Madrid and Barcelona.

Only saw your post after mine Niall. Yes, of course having anything to do with Nazis was bat **** fkn crazy. As other nationalists like Bretons, Flemish, Ukranians etc discovered.

gibsmedat

Bonniedog wrote: »

Then again even Irish trots have blind spot when it comes to Stalinism here and in Spain even though Ryan's side slaughtered the poor fkers in Madrid and Barcelona.

The rebuplicans in Spain were sick bastards.

And we are told they were the good guys.

CrankyHaus

gibsmedat wrote: »

The rebuplicans in Spain were sick bastards.

And we are told they were the good guys.

They were the defenders of the elected government against a Fascist military coup.

The degeneration of the Republican side was driven by the Communists and came later.

Dyr

Bonniedog wrote: »

It has not been researched and not sure if there are documents in Moscow that might back it up, but it is perhaps significant that Ryan ended up in Berlin during the Soviet/Nazi alliance when they were swapping prisoners.

Ryan was in Spain under Comintern/NKVD command and would have been regarded as important enough as someone who was pushing Comintern policy withing IRA prior to 1933 and then led a left split into Congress.
.

It was the Irish government who (indirectly) had Ryan released by the Spanish to German Intelligence. Also worth noting Ryan was in on Russells plan and was on the sub with him.

Bonniedog

CrankyHaus wrote: »

They were the defenders of the elected government against a Fascist military coup.

The degeneration of the Republican side was driven by the Communists and came later.

There is a certain element of truth in that. Communists won 14 of 473 seats in last general elections but took over the police with aid of NKVD.

It was a dry run for how Soviets with tiny domestic Communist parties took over eastern and central Europe in 1945 (one exception was Czechoslovakia.)

They even stole the entire Republican foreign reserve! That's who Ryan was fighting with.

With friends like these, etc..

Bonniedog

Bambi wrote: »

It was the Irish government who (indirectly) had Ryan released by the Spanish to German Intelligence. Also worth noting Ryan was in on Russells plan and was on the sub with him.

They certainly made representations but whole thing still a bit of a mystery.

Other states with bigger clout had little luck getting prisoners out, and FF government was one of most hostile - contrary to leftie myth - of European democracies to Franco.

Part of that of course is that they were still a bit worried over FG/fascist threat. FG strongly pushed for diplomatic recognition of the coup and for other assistance.

Nermal

Sean Russell was born as close to the Great Famine as today is to the release of Bohemian Rhapsody.

How skilled you all are at transporting yourself to another era and making moral pronouncements about the people who live there.

touts

Nermal wrote: »

Sean Russell was born as close to the Great Famine as today is to the release of Bohemian Rhapsody.

How skilled you all are at transporting yourself to another era and making moral pronouncements about the people who live there.

Ok. Explain to us how if we were in the 1930s/40s we would all think Facism was fantastic and Sinn Fein and Russell were visionaries and it's only hindsight that has shown that murdering millions of people is wrong. Go on. I really want to see you try.

marieholmfan

touts wrote: »

Ok. Explain to us how if we were in the 1930s/40s we would all think Facism was fantastic and Sinn Fein and Russell were visionaries and it's only hindsight that has shown that murdering millions of people is wrong. Go on. I really want to see you try.

He didn't think that Fascism was fantastic ; he was prepared to seek any allies in order to free his country.

Danzy

Nermal wrote: »

Sean Russell was born as close to the Great Famine as today is to the release of Bohemian Rhapsody.

How skilled you all are at transporting yourself to another era and making moral pronouncements about the people who live there.

In line with the BLM protestors, the statue smashers, book burners of the modern left, religious fanatics everywhere.

It is very easy to judge and everyone is a sinner if they are not with the pure believers.

Bonniedog

touts wrote: »

Ok. Explain to us how if we were in the 1930s/40s we would all think Facism was fantastic and Sinn Fein and Russell were visionaries and it's only hindsight that has shown that murdering millions of people is wrong. Go on. I really want to see you try.

A significant proportion of writers and intellectuals were admirers of Stalin for decades during and even after the slaughter of millions was known about.

They were no better than those who admired Hitler, arguably worse in fact given that Stalinism and its spawn killed more people and lasted longer, but its still okay to make excuses for all that and even be part of movements to revive it.

Danzy

Bonniedog wrote: »

A significant proportion of writers and intellectuals were admirers of Stalin for decades during and even after the slaughter of millions was known about.

They were no better than those who admired Hitler, arguably worse in fact given that Stalinism and its spawn killed more people and lasted longer, but its still okay to make excuses for all that and even be part of movements to revive it.

I've met people, elected people on the left, who admire Mao!

A man whose brutality outshone Hitler in every metric.

JohnnyFlash

Danzy wrote: »

I've met people, elected people on the left, who admire Mao!

A man whose brutality outshone Hitler in every metric.

Oddballs tend to be attracted to extremist political ideologies and belief systems. Some go left, some go right.

Peevish little men with a hammer and sickle in their twitter profile sort of thing. I’d bet there isn’t one of them who doesn’t have a significant mental health issue, and a life that should be the source of tremendous pity.

paw patrol

touts wrote: »

Ok. Explain to us how if we were in the 1930s/40s we would all think Facism was fantastic and Sinn Fein and Russell were visionaries and it's only hindsight that has shown that murdering millions of people is wrong. Go on. I really want to see you try.

brilliant analysis there.:rolleyes:


You clearly have no grasp on the 1930s and the conditions that existed in Europe ,how polarised the place was and the fear due to the rise of the communism.


nah, you type away there and play captain hindsight and judge them all.

marieholmfan

Danzy wrote: »

I've met people, elected people on the left, who admire Mao!

A man whose brutality outshone Hitler in every metric.

What well organised genocide was organised by Mao Tse Tung?

blanch152

Nermal wrote: »

Sean Russell was born as close to the Great Famine as today is to the release of Bohemian Rhapsody.

How skilled you all are at transporting yourself to another era and making moral pronouncements about the people who live there.

That actually paints him in a far worse light. If he grew up with living memory accounts of the Famine and its effects on Irish people, his collaboration with the Nazis who did an awful worse than that to millions and millions of innocent people is even more despicable.

Bonniedog

marieholmfan wrote: »

What well organised genocide was organised by Mao Tse Tung?

Seriously!

They wiped out a third of the population of Tibet through murder, prison camps and artificial famine.

Estimates of deaths during Great Leap Forward of 1959 - 1961 range up to 50 million!

gibsmedat

Lads get with the program will yous.

Left wing mass murderers = good guys

Right wing mass murderers = vile nasty facsist racists etc etc....