Saorsat technical changes - 1st July 2020

marclt

Just noticed some on screen messages on the saorsat feeds with a change of technical parameters on July 1st.

The changes from 6AM on July 1st will be:

Freq: 20192.500 MHz (20190. MHz)
Symbol Rate: 12.500 (25000)
FEC: 5/6 (2/3).

(current settings in brackets).

There is an MHEG screen on Ch 20 detailing the changes.

The Cush

Thread here on it from a few days ago - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058088564

watty

I suspect this is penny-pinching because UPC (who only rent the Virgin Brand) are not on Saorsat. It's a failure of licence regulation.
It's a total pig to retune "other channels" on Humax HDR1010s, secret menu for Diseqc and you have to rescan. Which is a failure of the Freesat rules, making UK boxes ghettoised. Most Freesat can't do non-Freesat at all, but generally it's the only way to get Interactive MHEG.

My Ka LNBF is on a Multiswitch, port 4 / D, Vertical-Low. So the the other 3 connections are on the original Ku LNBF moved to 23.5E, which thus gets extra radio. So 5 x LNBFs on the bar of the 1.1m dish.

Gerry Wicklow

watty wrote: »

I suspect this is penny-pinching because UPC (who only rent the Virgin Brand) are not on Saorsat. It's a failure of licence regulation.
It's a total pig to retune "other channels" on Humax HDR1010s, secret menu for Diseqc and you have to rescan. Which is a failure of the Freesat rules, making UK boxes ghettoised. Most Freesat can't do non-Freesat at all, but generally it's the only way to get Interactive MHEG.

My Ka LNBF is on a Multiswitch, port 4 / D, Vertical-Low. So the the other 3 connections are on the original Ku LNBF moved to 23.5E, which thus gets extra radio. So 5 x LNBFs on the bar of the 1.1m dish.

@watty long time no see.

Have you done the calculations for the new 'fake' settings instead of 10765?

Gerry Wicklow

These settings work for me.

marclt

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

These settings work for me.

I’m finding signal strength strongest on 10768 here.

watty

I've found "adding a transponder" only works on some boxes. Does work on a Humax HDR1010s, in fact the only way, except you have to use the hidden menu, reselect diseqc on ALL satellites (freesat fails if you don't set Astra to 28.2 even though it's port one, unless you've not done an other Channels scan.

I do a Blind Scan, FTA only. I do have it using the Vertical - Low cable of a Quattro mounted at 23.5, so I scan 23.5 E Astra 3B rather than setting up 9E. Means the bar on the end of the arm has 4x Quattro Ku LNBFs (28.2, 19.2, 13 and port 4 is 23.5) and one Ka LNBF.

Just did it on a Redline G140, but I had to delete the old channels afterwards. Some boxes ask if you want to delete the existing channels. I had to swap the external SMPSU on the G140, too noisy and wiping out all LW & MW. The similar price Redline M440 HD has an internal SMPSU which is totally quiet, RF wise.
It found it a 10758 and SR of 12499 QPSK 5/6 DVBS2.
It's 84% quality, simply replacing the Ku LNBF at 9E in June. I'd only checked alignment of 28.2E / entire dish when I moved it last April. The LNBs are the same place on the bar as maybe 10 years ago.

Apart from not having "Interactive" MHEG5, the Redline M440HD and G140 are better user interfaces than the Manhatten SX and Humax HDR 1010S.
Android TV is pathetic for Satellite. Generally Android TV looks like it was designed for Apps on a 19" screen on a desk you are sitting at. The actual tuners / TV channels seem to be an afterthought. Far too small GUI even on 48" at normal viewing and totally orientated to Apps and streaming. Also STUPIDLY if the Channel Change banner is enabled, it pops up stats on HDMI inputs every time a disc format changes etc. Sony had far better TV software of their own. Also gratuitous format & encryption even for FTA channels and the USB HDD only plays on one TV? ANY FTA Satbox with recording via USB is better. Or a PC. Idiots.
The Redline boxes create *.ts files for FTA.

watty

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

@watty long time no see.

Have you done the calculations for the new 'fake' settings instead of 10765?

I simply added the difference in frequency of the two Ka transponders.

Delta Lima

10758 works for me too.

I have a similar set up to you watty , using a Triax multiblock and multiswitch.

Except that my dish is a TD 88 and I use Port 2 , Vertical / Low ( the other 3 inputs on that port coming from an LNB at 19.2 E position.) I don't think I'm missing too much without that input from 19.2.

I centred the dish on 16 E before putting on the multiblock bracket.

So I was loosing Saorsat signal occasionally. in heavy rain.

I'm just hoping it doesn't get much worse with these new changes in settings.
It's hard to tell atm because it actually stopped raining where I am today.

Gerry Wicklow

@marclt @watty. I tried going up in small steps and got nothing. Went down in small steps and it locked on at around 10762. But when I checked to get that screen grab 10758 is what the box itself chose. Who am I to argue with it. LOL
Of course that's why I emphasised those setting "worked for me"
That's openATV BTW

phelixoflaherty

Trying to rescan Humax Foxsat in Galway city.
With these new settings is the frequency different for different parts of the country?
Not getting anything with the new settings

Delta Lima

Be sure to delete the old non- working stations first.

phelixoflaherty

Deleted entire satelite settings and reinstalled.
When inputting frequency, humax only allows 5 digits, therefore 20192 instead of 20192.500 .
Would this be the cause?
Thanks

Delta Lima

Did you try 10758 or similar instead of that number philex...?

phelixoflaherty

Will try this evening,thanks

phelixoflaherty

No luck

Delta Lima

Did you do a factory reset? ( You shouldn't have needed to.) If you did you need to set up your "Antenna Settings" properly , according to your installation.

Check out this site for a guide for the Foxsat.

http://www.astra2sat.com/freesat/diseqc-settings-on-freesat/

Yogomeysl

I changed over to 10758 MHz, 12500 symbol and 5/6 Fec. Signal is down about 30% from previous saorsat parameters. RTE starts freezing now and then.

I moved up and down a few MHz either side of 10758 looking for a higher signal strength, but no joy. Never had a problem before with the older settings. Is anyone else experiencing lower signal strength?

funkey_monkey

I'm running OpenVix and ABM. Will this setup trickle its way into this or do I need to do anything manually?

Apogee

Yogomeysl wrote: »

I changed over to 10758 MHz, 12500 symbol and 5/6 Fec. Signal is down about 30% from previous saorsat parameters. RTE starts freezing now and then.

I moved up and down a few MHz either side of 10758 looking for a higher signal strength, but no joy. Never had a problem before with the older settings. Is anyone else experiencing lower signal strength?

The change from an FEC of 3/4 to 5/6 means the signal contains less in built error correction. Higher FEC -> Less robust signal ->Bigger dish for stable reception.

You could try realigning your dish to see if your reception can be improved. As an initial test, press gently on the dish on left, then right, then top, then bottom and see if signal quality improves - you may need someone to monitor the TV.

Failing that, you need a bigger dish.

marclt

Yogomeysl wrote: »

I changed over to 10758 MHz, 12500 symbol and 5/6 Fec. Signal is down about 30% from previous saorsat parameters. RTE starts freezing now and then.

I moved up and down a few MHz either side of 10758 looking for a higher signal strength, but no joy. Never had a problem before with the older settings. Is anyone else experiencing lower signal strength?

What size dish are you using there?

marclt

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

@marclt @watty. I tried going up in small steps and got nothing. Went down in small steps and it locked on at around 10762. But when I checked to get that screen grab 10758 is what the box itself chose. Who am I to argue with it. LOL
Of course that's why I emphasised those setting "worked for me"
That's openATV BTW

It’s 10757 / 10758 on my samsung TV, but on the LG, it is showing a slightly stronger sig on a slightly different frequency - it may just be a quirk of the software.

There is still no difference in the make up of the multiplex, 20 TV placeholders (Many blank) and 10 for radio.

funkey_monkey

What signal strength and quality is everyone getting?
I'm in NE Antrim and getting only 30% SNR and 60% AGC. Using the 'real' transponder value in Satellites.xml (whic I added myself):

<transponder frequency="20192500" symbol_rate="12500000" polarization="2" fec_inner="4" system="1" modulation="1" />

Able to pick up channels. Fear is that came the next heavy rain shower we'll drop the channels. Is this going to improve in future or is this it?

Yogomeysl

marclt wrote: »

What size dish are you using there?

80 cm. Going to double check alignment and failing that upgrade to bigger dish

Yogomeysl

funkey_monkey wrote: »

What signal strength and quality is everyone getting?
I'm in NE Antrim and getting only 30% SNR and 60% AGC. Using the 'real' transponder value in Satellites.xml (whic I added myself):

<transponder frequency="20192500" symbol_rate="12500000" polarization="2" fec_inner="4" system="1" modulation="1" />

Able to pick up channels. Fear is that came the next heavy rain shower we'll drop the channels. Is this going to improve in future or is this it?

Nearly identical numbers here. I contacted 2rn on Friday about it. They are going to check the signal in areas. As kindly mentioned in a previous post, changing the error correction to a less robust one is causing problems for people who are on borderline signal strength.

funkey_monkey

Yogomeysl wrote: »

Nearly identical numbers here. I contacted 2rn on Friday about it. They are going to check the signal in areas. As kindly mentioned in a previous post, changing the error correction to a less robust one is causing problems for people who are on borderline signal strength.

Whereabouts are you and what is your setup?

Yogomeysl

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Whereabouts are you and what is your setup?

80 cm dish in the midlands with a generic receiver (via DiSEqC switch). Not a blip in reception from saorsat for the last number of years, until change on July 1st. But having said that, the signal was always far less than our astra 2d dish, despite careful alignment.

funkey_monkey

Mine goes through a Diseqc (multiswitch) too into a Mutant HD51.

I've noticed that our LG TV takes the multiswitch output and reports values of 90+. However, the transponder setup does not include the FEC value.

leoXX

I'm surprised that RTE have never announced the closure of saorsat for cost cutting reasons

Gerry Wicklow

leoXX wrote: »

I'm surprised that RTE have never announced the closure of saorsat for cost cutting reasons

I was under the impression it was intended as a backup feed to transmitters.

funkey_monkey

funkey_monkey wrote: »

What signal strength and quality is everyone getting?
I'm in NE Antrim and getting only 30% SNR and 60% AGC. Using the 'real' transponder value in Satellites.xml (whic I added myself):

<transponder frequency="20192500" symbol_rate="12500000" polarization="2" fec_inner="4" system="1" modulation="1" />

Able to pick up channels. Fear is that came the next heavy rain shower we'll drop the channels. Is this going to improve in future or is this it?

and so less than 24hrs later wind and rain has caused us to drop the signal. :mad:

watty

phelixoflaherty wrote: »

Deleted entire satelite settings and reinstalled.
When inputting frequency, humax only allows 5 digits, therefore 20192 instead of 20192.500 .
Would this be the cause?
Thanks

You have to enter the 10758.
I tested the previous frequency last month on an HDR1010s. Only worked by adding a transponder as if it's Ku. the HDR1010s now goes to a purple screen unless unplugged for a while so it's been replaced with a Manhatten SX for Freesat Interactive and a Redline M440HD for freesat + other sats inc Saorsat without interactive.

watty

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

I was under the impression it was intended as a backup feed to transmitters.

Yes, they used to have a Sky contract. FTA KaSat is much cheaper. This change can't be saving much.
People should complain in writing to UPC/Virgin and the BAI. Any National TV or NATIONAL radio licence in the State ought to be Must Carry on the RTENL transponder or whatever future FTA satellite that RTENL uses. Also Sky ought to be paying handsomely for the Irish Content on their platform which would more than fund the cost of Saorsat.

phelixoflaherty

Read somewhere they used car wax on lnb and dish.
Water did adhere to the surface. Might help

watty

It's all the rain between the dish and the clouds in the direction of the Satellite is the problem, not the dish or LNB being wet.
One advantage of the Offset Dish is that snow doesn't collect on it.

phelixoflaherty

Ok. Got it.
Did reset to clear channels list.
Thanks a million for all the help.

Its a foxsat box with Raydon software

Delta Lima

Ah very good.

I have Raydon's firmware on a Foxsat too. You can put the Saorsat RTEs on to the same list as the freesat channels with that software.
Saves you having to change to non-freesat mode.

Though you have to undo that function if you need to delete them.

Maybe that was part of your problem.

Still going great, that box, with very few hiccups.

Capt'n Midnight

Since the symbol rate has halved I haven't bothered retuning yet.

Halving the bandwidth means there ain't much chance of TG4 going HD anytime soon. :mad:
So I'll have to watch BBC and RTE on the off chance they show some of the programs in HD there.

StreetLight wrote: »

Frequency: Currently 20190.0Mhz changing to 20192.5MHz
Symbol Rate: Currently 25000 changing to 12500
FEC: Currently 2/3 changing to 5/6

https://www.2rn.ie/broadcast/saorsat-digital-television/

marclt

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Since the symbol rate has halved I haven't bothered retuning yet.

Halving the bandwidth means there ain't much chance of TG4 going HD anytime soon. :mad:
So I'll have to watch BBC and RTE on the off chance they show some of the programs in HD there.

I did email TG4 and they said they had no intention of going HD on Saorsat.

marclt

Yogomeysl wrote: »

Nearly identical numbers here. I contacted 2rn on Friday about it. They are going to check the signal in areas. As kindly mentioned in a previous post, changing the error correction to a less robust one is causing problems for people who are on borderline signal strength.

Log every outage, might be the only way to get some action on it.

Are they receptive to queries being raised?

Capt'n Midnight

marclt wrote: »

I did email TG4 and they said they had no intention of going HD on Saorsat.

The difference is now there isn't room even if they and Virginmedia wanted to

Yogomeysl

marclt wrote: »

Log every outage, might be the only way to get some action on it.

Are they receptive to queries being raised?

Yes indeed. When I spoke to them they were very helpful and seemed genuinely eager to resolve any problems. I double checked my dish alignment and it's bang on. From my experience, an 80 cm is no longer feasible for receiving Saorsat. The signal is now borderline stable. It's a pity, as before there were no issues.

John896

Since the technical changes my signal is still the same here,in Swansea using a 1.2m dish good signal at 85%.And on my 2.4m dish 100%.

funkey_monkey

I'm finding that the setup for the Mutant HD51 is dropping out whereas the LG TV is staying consistent.
The LG TV uses the fake frequency whereas the HD51 uses the real frequency.

Any ideas as to why this might be?

Elvis Hammond

funkey_monkey wrote: »

I'm finding that the setup for the Mutant HD51 is dropping out whereas the LG TV is staying consistent.
The LG TV uses the fake frequency whereas the HD51 uses the real frequency.

Any ideas as to why this might be?

I think people have had to use attenuators with some LG TVs, on 28 east, as the tuners are apparently very sensitive.

Inmet99

On the whole dish size thing, I have an old dish I bought in Lidl, 80cm in height, but 70cm in width. What is the actual "size" of the dish, given a different length and width?

mackersdublin

Inmet99 wrote: »

On the whole dish size thing, I have an old dish I bought in Lidl, 80cm in height, but 70cm in width. What is the actual "size" of the dish, given a different length and width?

You have a 80cm dish

funkey_monkey

funkey_monkey wrote: »

and so less than 24hrs later wind and rain has caused us to drop the signal. :mad:

Dry day here, but a bit blustery and the signal has been dropping out on the mutant hd51 but is fine on the LG TV.
I would have expected the opposite.

The hd51 had two Si2166D tuners and uses the real transponder whereas the LG TV just uses its internal runners and the fake 10758 frequency.

Any ideas as to what I could do to improve reception at the Hd51? It is a new dish and securely attached.

Elvis Hammond

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Dry day here, but a bit blustery and the signal has been dropping out on the mutant hd51 but is fine on the LG TV.
I would have expected the opposite.

The hd51 had two Si2166D tuners and uses the real transponder whereas the LG TV just uses its internal runners and the fake 10758 frequency.

Neither of them tune to the broadcast frequency; they're tuning to the LNB output, which is a much lower frequency. What you enter in the tuning menu is just a means to an end, nothing 'real' or 'fake' about it.

Here's a previous thread dealing with LG TVs & tuner sensitivity:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=113011528

funkey_monkey

The LG TV is fine. The problem is the HD51.

Elvis Hammond

funkey_monkey wrote: »

The LG TV is fine. The problem is the HD51.

Yes, I was just speculating that the LG would be better with a weak signal, going by others' experience.

You'll probably just need a bigger dish to get anything else to work.