Saorsat technical changes - 1st July 2020

funkey_monkey

I tell a lie - it is both. I've just managed to check the LG tv when the HD51 was down and the LG was down too.

Would the multiswitch be part of the problem here - I did look at the spec and it has 0dB insertion loss for a sat input. But would there be something else at play here? Both the HD51 and the LG obtain their input signal from the Multiswitch.

Would a signal amplifier do anything here?

Elvis Hammond

Typical domestic installs have no need for amplification over what the LNB provides. (You say your switch compensates for its own losses.)

Signal quality is another matter, & I've seen it recommended that a multiswitch be paired with a dish 'one size up' from what would otherwise be used, to make up for the extra electrical noise introduced by the switch.

funkey_monkey

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

Typical domestic installs have no need for amplification over what the LNB provides. (You say your switch compensates for its own losses.)

Signal quality is another matter, & I've seen it recommended that a multiswitch be paired with a dish 'one size up' from what would otherwise be used, to make up for the extra electrical noise introduced by the switch.

This is the switch: EMP Centauri MS9/8

The spec says 0db loss for sat inputs (if I've read it correctly).

The LG TV and the HD51 both get their inputs via the multiswitch (I might not have made this clear previously) so for some reason the HD51 is unable to pick the signal as well. I had expected it to be opposite as i paid more to upgrade the tuners in the HD51.

Delta Lima

Funkey , are you using 2 separate dishes for your setup, rather than a multi-bracket on a single dish? 2 dishes would of course be better . I'm guessing you are.

What size is your Saorsat dish?

N. E. Antrim may be a little on the outscirts of the best reception area to begin with.

I too have read somewhere that you may need the next size up dish, for
a multi switch, (and an Octo LNB). Maybe you could bypass it just as a test.

You may have to bite the bullet, and go for a bigger one.

I think needing even a minimum 80cm is a bit crazy to start with, but that's the way it is.

funkey_monkey

Delta Lima wrote: »

Funkey , are you using 2 separate dishes for your setup, rather than a multi-bracket on a single dish? 2 dishes would of course be better . I'm guessing you are.

Yes, 2 separate dishes

What size is your Saorsat dish?

90cm. Installer does the whole area and beyond and said it was fine - and so it was until this change.

N. E. Antrim may be a little on the outscirts of the best reception area to begin with.

Never really had an issue before with coverage unless the heavens had opened.

I too have read somewhere that you may need the next size up dish, for
a multi switch, (and an Octo LNB). Maybe you could bypass it just as a test.

Yes, I'll try that first.

You may have to bite the bullet, and go for a bigger one.

I think needing even a minimum 80cm is a bit crazy to start with, but that's the way it is.

So, that would be a 1.1m Triax @ ~£100.

funkey_monkey

So what's going on here.
I tried direct access to the lnb from the hd51 - no improvement, fair enough.

However when I went to revert I can't pick up saorsat on the transponder I created.
But if I create a user defined one with same values only with right circular polarisation I get the signal.
Left circular doesn't work.

What has happened!

Elvis Hammond

funkey_monkey wrote: »

So what's going on here.
I tried direct access to the lnb from the hd51 - no improvement, fair enough.

However when I went to revert I can't pick up saorsat on the transponder I created.
But if I create a user defined one with same values only with right circular polarisation I get the signal.
Left circular doesn't work.

What has happened!

You must have reconnected the LNB to a horizontal switch input, so the receiver has to look for a right handed signal?

funkey_monkey

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

You must have reconnected the LNB to a horizontal switch input, so the receiver has to look for a right handed signal?

Connected to VL and HL. Same as previous. Only need VL but I stick in HL too to keep it tidy, has no effect.

Elvis Hammond

It would appear the connection to VL has failed.

funkey_monkey

How would that have happened?
This Saorsat update is rapidly getting very expensive if I now need a new multiswitch as well as a bigger dish.

Gerry Wicklow

funkey_monkey wrote: »

How would that have happened?
This Saorsat update is rapidly getting very expensive if I now need a new multiswitch as well as a bigger dish.

I use a multiswitch without issue using the alternative settings, 10758 V 12500 5/6.
I was told to use vertical instead of circular. Why? is above my pay scale

Elvis Hammond

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

... I was told to use vertical instead of circular. Why? is above my pay scale

It's the same 13/18 volt switching for V/H linear, & LH/RH circular. If the multiswitch is in quattro mode, you can connect to either low band input, & use either V/H, LH or RH, as the LNB won't be switched from LH circular.

funkey_monkey wrote: »

How would that have happened?
This Saorsat update is rapidly getting very expensive if I now need a new multiswitch as well as a bigger dish.

You hardly need a new switch if it's still working alright on the H input. Maybe just something like the f-conn. gone dodgy on the cable connected to VL.

Or the LNB could be at fault.

funkey_monkey

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

I use a multiswitch without issue using the alternative settings, 10758 V 12500 5/6.
I was told to use vertical instead of circular. Why? is above my pay scale

I'm using the 20192 frequency as that is needed for the OpenVix setup I have. It was working too until took out the inputs to go direct to the HD51 to see if that improved signal. Now when I try to go via the multiswitch is requires Circular Right instead of Circular Left.

funkey_monkey

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

It's the same 13/18 volt switching for V/H linear, & LH/RH circular. If the multiswitch is in quattro mode, you can connect to either low band input, & use either V/H, LH or RH, as the LNB won't be switched from LH circular.



You hardly need a new switch if it's still working alright on the H input. Maybe just something like the f-conn. gone dodgy on the cable connected to VL.

Or the LNB could be at fault.

I've only got a single LNB input into VL at the minute. I'll try the other one later.

Is there a way to check which of the two is the problem - apart from changing the F connectors?
As anaside, what are the gold standard F-connectors?

Elvis Hammond

I've only ever used the twist-on f-connectors, not that I'm installing loads of them or anything.

I'm not sure why you want both LNB feeds working?

funkey_monkey

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

I'm not sure why you want both LNB feeds working?

If it is the f connector then the other input should be working. Otherwise it will be the lnb?

Elvis Hammond

I'm still not getting what the problem is: if the connection to the HL input was working, I'd just have used that, & forgot about the other.

funkey_monkey

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

I'm still not getting what the problem is: if the connection to the HL input was working, I'd just have used that, & forgot about the other.

The problem is that it was working before I removed the cables with circular left and when I reconnected it needed circular left.
So something has gone wrong.

Elvis Hammond

funkey_monkey wrote: »

The problem is that it was working before I removed the cables with circular left and when I reconnected it needed circular left.
So something has gone wrong.

You mean it needed circular right when you reconnected? Isn't that because the VL input failed, & it was having to use the HL input, that you'd also connected?

Obviously something has gone wrong with the feed connected to VL, but it's hardly a big deal if you have the other one.

River Suir

watty wrote: »

Yes, they used to have a Sky contract. FTA KaSat is much cheaper. This change can't be saving much.
People should complain in writing to UPC/Virgin and the BAI. Any National TV or NATIONAL radio licence in the State ought to be Must Carry on the RTENL transponder or whatever future FTA satellite that RTENL uses. Also Sky ought to be paying handsomely for the Irish Content on their platform which would more than fund the cost of Saorsat.

Saorsat was a commercial initiative by the then RTE NL rather than anything mandated by the BAI. I get your argument about TG4 HD and the Virgin Media channels but the BAI aren't a party to Saorsat.

Saorsat certainly is a better method of feeding transmitters than a Sky box but how do the transmitters then get a Virgin Media feed?

I'm of the view that RTE should find a better method of distributing their programmes overseas rather than the meagre gruel served up on the RTE player. Putting their channels on a more easily received satellite like Hotbird and encrypting them (without any Sky involvement) would have been a better option and one that would have given them a bigger audience. Piracy of Irish channels abroad via IPTV and Irish Sky subs is very widespread. It's crazy that Montrose continue to ignore the commercial potential for properly serving the Irish abroad...

KildareP

River Suir wrote: »

I'm of the view that RTE should find a better method of distributing their programmes overseas rather than the meagre gruel served up on the RTE player. Putting their channels on a more easily received satellite like Hotbird and encrypting them (without any Sky involvement) would have been a better option and one that would have given them a bigger audience. Piracy of Irish channels abroad via IPTV and Irish Sky subs is very widespread. It's crazy that Montrose continue to ignore the commercial potential for properly serving the Irish abroad...

If you're using a satellite used for direct to home then transponder space is expensive, especially if you've to light up your own. If you intend on being included on a pay TV operator's platform you'll need to sign a carriage agreement with each operator although you might be able to go in on a transponder with the operator.

Otherwise viewers will need a separate box just for receiving RTÉ and RTÉ will then need to take on management and associated costs of the encryption system, viewing cards, support, etc.



If you're using a satellite that is primarily used for feeds or contribution links, transponder space is cheaper, but then viewers will need a new dish pointed at this satellite and a separate box for RTÉ. All of the requirements around encryption apply here as well. These satellites also tend to require significantly larger dishes than would typically be used on a house since the satellite is geared towards broadcast facility use rather than DTH.



All in all it's a lot of overhead and a high cost base which may ultimately not be met by subscriptions if subscribers don't materialise in sufficient quantities. Costs which RTÉ really cannot afford to subsidise right now and for which they ultimately have no remit to provide for audiences outside of Ireland.



Instead, I think the money would be better diverted to improving the RTÉ Player. The main stumbling block with the player is that the entire platform is run out of Montrose, including all of the streaming. As a result the link to INEX can become extremely congested under load and that's when you start seeing disconnects, buffering, dropouts, failing to load, etc.



Instead, if they were to make use of a content distribution network like Akamai or Limelight then all RTÉ need concern themselves with is the master encodes while the CDN's handle all of the bandwidth demands. Of course, this costs money and periods of heavy load (Toy Show for example) can see costs racking up very quickly as CDN's can easily scale to millions of viewers on demand, each viewer ultimately being a cost to RTÉ. Granted, if they were to offer it on a subscription basis, then subscription income would scale linearly with subscriber costs which would be far more palatable.

River Suir

KildareP wrote: »

If you're using a satellite used for direct to home then transponder space is expensive, especially if you've to light up your own. If you intend on being included on a pay TV operator's platform you'll need to sign a carriage agreement with each operator although you might be able to go in on a transponder with the operator.

Otherwise viewers will need a separate box just for receiving RTÉ and RTÉ will then need to take on management and associated costs of the encryption system, viewing cards, support, etc.



If you're using a satellite that is primarily used for feeds or contribution links, transponder space is cheaper, but then viewers will need a new dish pointed at this satellite and a separate box for RTÉ. All of the requirements around encryption apply here as well. These satellites also tend to require significantly larger dishes than would typically be used on a house since the satellite is geared towards broadcast facility use rather than DTH.



All in all it's a lot of overhead and a high cost base which may ultimately not be met by subscriptions if subscribers don't materialise in sufficient quantities. Costs which RTÉ really cannot afford to subsidise right now and for which they ultimately have no remit to provide for audiences outside of Ireland.



Instead, I think the money would be better diverted to improving the RTÉ Player. The main stumbling block with the player is that the entire platform is run out of Montrose, including all of the streaming. As a result the link to INEX can become extremely congested under load and that's when you start seeing disconnects, buffering, dropouts, failing to load, etc.



Instead, if they were to make use of a content distribution network like Akamai or Limelight then all RTÉ need concern themselves with is the master encodes while the CDN's handle all of the bandwidth demands. Of course, this costs money and periods of heavy load (Toy Show for example) can see costs racking up very quickly as CDN's can easily scale to millions of viewers on demand, each viewer ultimately being a cost to RTÉ. Granted, if they were to offer it on a subscription basis, then subscription income would scale linearly with subscriber costs which would be far more palatable.

I am usually outside Ireland and would be happy to pay a subscription to get more programmes and a far more reliable stream, especially for events like the Toy Show.

TAFKAlawhec

I added my Saorsat LNB back on to a "new" two-dish satellite set up I have at present to a temporary set up, but unlike the previous occasion last year when the 80cm dish had the Saorsat LNB as the prime focus, this time it's straddled as an offset with the 80cm dish aimed at 13E.

DVB-S2 w/ QPSK and FEC of 5/6 demands a minimum SNR of 5.2db, with is 2.1db higher than previous (FEC of 2/3) and 4.2db higher than the original (FEC of 1/2). I tried setting the LNB up in light rain in Co. Tyrone last night (Thursday) fairly quickly with an Freesat V8 finder meter before connecting it to the last input of a 4 port Diseqc 1.0 switch - going indoors to check the results in the wet outdoor conditions, they were concerning - although it looked good on the V8 meter, the signal on the indoor receiver (Zgemma Star H1, just using it for the time being) was just flickering above the SNR threshold from around 5.5 to 6.2db quite rapidly with very occasional picture break up due to the tiny margin for errors. 'twas a bit drier today so in the morning the SNR was hovering around just 7.2 to 7.4 db - I got a chance in the late afternoon with some cloud overhead to tweak the position of the Saorsat LNB on the multi-LNB bracket and managed to get a peak of around 8.3 to 9.1db, quickly varying between values. A dry clear evening has seen the signal stabilise between 9.0 to 9.2db - but I remember from experimenting with Saorsat last year that in moderate Irish rain the SNR dips by between 2.5 to 3db compared to dry conditions. By my rough calculations I should have enough room for error to receive Saorsat outside of torrential downpours, but it's quite small w/ not an awful lot of margin for error.

I think it's safe for me to say at this time that whereas prior to the technical changes I reckon I could have got away with a 60cm dish for Saorsat (assuming the LNB was at the main focus and not an offset like above) for all-weather conditions, an 80cm is now really needed to give enough elbow room to account for most precipitation. Your experience around Ireland, north/south/island of etc. may or will differ.