Sil Fox cleared (Very clear video evidence of lies of accuser)

paw patrol

paw patrol wrote: »

a bit of a trite response tbh - please elaborate.
if there is no evidence , is a complaint sent to the DPP?
So if I accuse you of sexual assault baselessly with contradictory evidence , does that go to the DPP regardless?

Yes for serious offences, it is investigated and all evidence is sent to the DPP who examines it and decided whether charged should be brought or not.
In less serious offences, the DPP has given 'blanket approval' for gardai to prosecute, often times the local superintendent will decide on charges, sometimes gardai will charge or summons someone.
A serious offence is an offence which carries a sentence of 4 years or more ( I think it's 4 years)

If you make a vexatious complaint, that when investigated is clearly not true and made maliciously then you can be prosecuted.

I don't know the details of this case other then what has been reported, but it seems like it all hangs on the CCTV footage, did no-one watch it?

MrMusician18

seamus wrote: »

It's typical for the DPP to exclude items from the book of evidence that would cast doubt on the security of their case. Obviously.

The big question really is when the DPP became aware of this CCTV footage. If it was 11th-hour stuff and they were blindsided in court by it, then maybe it's excusable.

If they became aware of it before the court date but chose not to have the case struck out themselves, then it could be down to simple incompetence, or even clerical error.

But if they knew of it before even proceeding with charges, then the whole thing needs an independent investigation. Because simple incompetence doesn't account for that.

Wouldn't that genuinely be the first thing an investigator looks for though, these days? I'm no expert but it's the first thing is look for.

If they didn't have it, it would point to stunning incompetence. If they did and excluded it, it is outrageous maliciousness. Either way those responsible in the DPPs office should be held accountable, but that's not likely to happen. Is the DPP subject to any formal kind of scrutiny?

seamus

My understanding is that the DPP doesn't do any investigating. The Gardai compile the evidence, present the case to the DPP who decide whether there is sufficient evidence to proceed.

And investigator may choose to ignore specific evidence and omit it from their presentation to the DPP. The DPP may omit certain forms of evidence that they know are poor or unreliable.

It's possible that an investigating Garda came across this footage and chose to ignore it. There's an obvious question of why; perhaps they were seeking out a high-profile sex assault case to make a name for themselves. Perhaps they were incompetent and didn't realise the value in the evidence.

Investigating Gardai are searching for evidence to prove a case; they're not seeking out the truth. Crime dramas portray police as crusaders for fact, who will immediately drop a case when they find evidence that disproves it. But that's an embellishment. Police want to secure convictions. Investigating Gardai actively engage in confirmation bias; evidence which doesn't support their case will be placed aside while they search for other supporting evidence.

The level of malicious or incompetent convictions is not the same here as it is in the US, but nevertheless it occurs because of the above.

That doesn't mean the investigators shouldn't be held to account. "He was just trying to secure a conviction" is no excuse. Investigating Gardai should be searching for truth, not convictions.

If they didn't have the CCTV footage, why not?
If they had it and ignored it, why?
If the DPP knew this footage existed, why didn't they drop the charges?

silver2020

If what was presented to the court is correct, Gardai did not think cctv was valid and nor did they think the statements of the accusers friend's were valid.

It looks like the gardai involved made an irrational assumption of Mr Fox's guilt and were not going to allow any evidence or witness tell them otherwise.

And I know someone that has had a similar level of incompetence and maliciousness put on them (its even worse - they refused to accept medical evidence) and their case is going to the high court too.

seenitall

Too much bias and ideology in the institutions? Like Rotherham etc., only in reverse. So the job doesn’t get done properly, or at all.

Fake Scores

seamus wrote: »

And investigator may choose to ignore specific evidence and omit it from their presentation to the DPP. The DPP may omit certain forms of evidence that they know are poor or unreliable.

I hope I'm not being too pendantic but just on a technical point for either to do the above is against the rules. Whether or how often that rule is broken is another matter. But to the letter all evidence, even exculpatory, must be gathered, considered and if things get that far must be disclosed to the accused.
Case Law

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Investigating Gardai are searching for evidence to prove a case; they're not seeking out the truth. Crime dramas portray police as crusaders for fact, who will immediately drop a case when they find evidence that disproves it. But that's an embellishment. Police want to secure convictions. Investigating Gardai actively engage in confirmation bias; evidence which doesn't support their case will be placed aside while they search for other supporting evidence.

The level of malicious or incompetent convictions is not the same here as it is in the US, but nevertheless it occurs because of the above.

This is not completely truthful.
Gardai must collect ALL evidence, whether it proves or disproves a case. Even if such evidence is left out of a file to the DPP, it must be handed to both the DPP and the defence in disclosure.

Edit, I see fake scores has pointed out the case law

WH BONNEY

Whatever compensation this poor man gets it will never be enough to make up for both the health and reputational damage this case has inflicted on him.

So many people should hold their heads in shame.

It is incomprehensible to me how the total and utter wickedness of the accuser is allowed to go unpunished, our system is a failure.

jimwallace197

WH BONNEY wrote: »

Whatever compensation this poor man gets it will never be enough to make up for both the health and reputational damage this case has inflicted on him.

So many people should hold their heads in shame.

It is incomprehensible to me how the total and utter wickedness of the accuser is allowed to go unpunished, our system is a failure.

Unfortunately, these type of sociopaths wouldnt have any problem in sleeping at night & certainly wont be hanging their heads. This was a concerted effort to destroy an innocent mans life mainly because he was semi famous and it would have been a nice little scalp for the gards & dpp if they had managed to get it over the line. If they had no problem in doing this in the first place, there's unfortunately not much of a moral compass there to begin with.

I dont believe for one second in this 11th hour crap either, they knew full well what they were doing but didnt care.

The gards and the DPP need to be held to account in this country so the state doesnt lose even more money.

Its saying alot that they are hoping he may pass away before offering him a settlement for what they have put him and his family through. Scumbags

fryup

its on Today FM now

jimwallace197

jimwallace197 wrote: »

it would have been a nice little scalp for the gards & dpp if they had managed to get it over the line. If they had no problem in doing this in the first place, there's unfortunately not much of a moral compass there to begin with.

I dont believe for one second in this 11th hour crap either, they knew full well what they were doing but didnt care.

The gards and the DPP need to be held to account in this country so the state doesnt lose even more money.

Its saying alot that they are hoping he may pass away before offering him a settlement for what they have put him and his family through. Scumbags

Such a ridiculous post, full of paranoia and not one word about the woman who made the false allegation

kravmaga

WH BONNEY wrote: »

Whatever compensation this poor man gets it will never be enough to make up for both the health and reputational damage this case has inflicted on him.

So many people should hold their heads in shame.

It is incomprehensible to me how the total and utter wickedness of the accuser is allowed to go unpunished, our system is a failure.

She should be charged with making a false statement and wasting Police time. I think its Section 12 of The Criminal Law Act 1976.

Name and shamed also, its a disgrace.

I hope Sil Fox gets well compensated.

jimwallace197

bubblypop wrote: »

Such a ridiculous post, full of paranoia not one word about the woman who made the false allegation

The only thing that is ridiculous here is you spouting your usual nonsense while claiming to work in women's protection services and as a member of the Garda while changing your story every so often to suit the narrative you attempt to portray.

No paranoia at all, absolutely ridiculous that this even went to court considering there was CCTV evidence completely contradicting her for the liar & witch she was.

How can people, especially men have any confidence in the so called police force if they go ahead with cases as open and shut as this. Tip of the iceberg and the likes of you don't do anything to give assurances to men considering the ridiculously biased attitude you have to matters such as this.

The sooner women who make false accusations like this are held to account along with the garda and DPP, the better, that time is coming so don't get too comfortable.

'

jimwallace197

jimwallace197 wrote: »

The only thing that is ridiculous here is you spouting your usual nonsense while claiming to work in women's protection services and as a member of the Garda while changing your story every so often to suit the narrative you attempt to portray.

No paranoia at all, absolutely ridiculous that this even went to court considering there was CCTV evidence completely contradicting her for the liar & witch she was.

How can people, especially men have any confidence in the so called police force if they go ahead with cases as open and shut as this. Tip of the iceberg and the likes of you don't do anything to give assurances to men considering the ridiculously biased attitude you have to matters such as this.

The sooner women who make false accusations like this are held to account along with the garda and DPP, the better, that time is coming so don't get too comfortable.

'

I have never claimed to work in women's services, what are you talking about?
I have absolutely never stated I work in AGS either btw

I'm not sure how many times you have to be told, gardai investigate and collect evidence. The office of the DPP examine the evidence and decide charges.
You can't go around blaming anyone when we don't know the details of why this case went to court

jimwallace197

bubblypop wrote: »

I have never claimed to work in women's services, what are you talking about?
I have absolutely never stated I work in AGS either btw

I'm not sure how many times you have to be told, gardai investigate and collect evidence. The office of the DPP examine the evidence and decide charges.
You can't go around blaming anyone when we don't know the details of why this case went to court

Seriously, there is no point in debating or arguing with someone like you.

If you don't believe the gards have a strong influence in whether the DPP go ahead with a prosecution or not, you are naive in the extreme.

And, we know exactly why this went to court so dont play dumb, it would have been a nice scalp, he is well known in Dublin. A nice little promotion for the investigating detective who knows he will get away without any prosecution but thankfully fox went to solicitors north of the border so who knows. Hopefully a full independent investigation will take place and he will suffer the consequences.

jimwallace197

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Seriously, there is no point in debating or arguing with someone like you.

If you don't believe the gards have a strong influence in whether the DPP go ahead with a prosecution or not, you are naive in the extreme.

And, we know exactly why this went to court so dont play dumb, it would have been a nice scalp, he is well known in Dublin. A nice little promotion for the investigating detective who knows he will get away without any prosecution but thankfully fox went to solicitors north of the border so who knows. Hopefully a full independent investigation will take place and he will suffer the consequences.

I never even heard of the man before this case so he's not that well known.
And if you really believe rubbish like 'it would have been a nice scalp' for gardai, then you are totally paranoid.
No-one is getting a promotion out of one conviction of a sexual assault.

Something went wrong here, but coming up with conspiracy theories about the gardai and the DPP, going out of their way to set up an old man is just waaay out there.

jimwallace197

bubblypop wrote: »

I never even heard of the man before this case so he's not that well known.
And if you really believe rubbish like 'it would have been a nice scalp' for gardai, then you are totally paranoid.
No-one is getting a promotion out of one conviction of a sexual assault.

Something went wrong here, but coming up with conspiracy theories about the gardai and the DPP, going out of their way to set up an old man is just waaay out there.

Not way out there, I know thats the narrative that you want to portray but its simply not the truth.

Yes, something did go wrong unfortunately a long time ago when detectives and the DPP were granted immunity from prosecution when pursuing cases like this. They should absolutely be held to account when blatantly lying, if they are not able to do their job which they are paid handsomely for, then jog on.

An embarrassment is what they are.

I find it revealing that you havent been able to offer one reasonable argument as to why they attempted to destroy this mans life and more than likely many others that we havent heard about by not simply doing their job. Which is by investigating not only the accused but the complainant. Important don't you think?

jimwallace197

jimwallace197 wrote: »

I find it revealing that you havent been able to offer one reasonable argument as to why they attempted to destroy this mans life and more than likely many others that we havent heard about by not simply doing their job. Which is investigating not only the accused but the complainant. Important don't you think?

Firstly, why would I offer a reasonable argument as to why 'they attempted to destroy' this man's life? That wouldn't make sense would it?

Secondly, I don't believe that any gardai or prosecutors did that. I would imagine the complainant possibly had ideas along those lines.

Thirdly, gardai investigate crimes.

walshb

kravmaga wrote: »

She should be charged with making a false statement and wasting Police time. I think its Section 12 of The Criminal Law Act 1976.

Name and shamed also, its a disgrace.

I hope Sil Fox gets well compensated.

The gardai and the DPP need to be seriously quizzed here, more than this nasty woman.

The woman is an absolute lowlife, but my jaysus, how did such a scurrilous and fabricated pile of nastiness get by the gardai and the DPP?

Wtf is going on?

jimwallace197

bubblypop wrote: »

Firstly, why would I offer a reasonable argument as to why 'they attempted to destroy' this man's life? That wouldn't make sense would it?

Secondly, I don't believe that any gardai or prosecutors did that. I would imagine the complainant possibly had ideas along those lines.

Thirdly, gardai investigate crimes.

Yes, it would make sense if a detective who was looking for a promotion by convicting a well known man in Dublin without the risk of any consequences if he got it wrong.

Are we expected to believe that the gards and detectives in this country are all good decent people, really, far from it. I've known plenty and have come across them aswell. Some of them are the biggest scumbags out there but because they generally get a free pass in Irish society, nothing ever happens.

Lets remove the immunity, lets open them up to prosecution when they maliciously prosecute someone.Surely thats justice wouldnt you agree? To suggest otherwise would be enabling corruption.

qm1bv4p8i92aoj

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Yes, it would make sense if a detective who was looking for a promotion by convicting a well known man in Dublin without the risk of any consequences if he got it wrong.

Are we expected to believe that the gards and detectives in this country are all good decent people, really, far from it. I've known plenty and have come across them aswell. Some of them are the biggest scumbags out there but because they generally get a free pass in Irish society, nothing ever happens.

Lets remove the immunity, lets open them up to prosecution when they maliciously prosecute someone.Surely thats justice wouldnt you agree? To suggest otherwise would be enabling corruption.

Shur you only have to look at what the upper echelons of AGS along with rank and file Gardai tried to do to Maurice McCabe. The most scurrilous false allegations you could ever accuse someone of all because he wanted Gardai to actually obey the law and not be corrupt. I know such a mental way to want your fellow Gardai to behave and he gets accused of being a pedo.

Then you have Seamus Wolfe with a neck like a jockeys bóllox refusing to resign while politicians all round him lose their jobs and face charges for breaking laws that he was apart of creating.

And now this case of Sil Fox. How abhorrent and brazen are the Gardai and the DPP to let this case get all the way to court with the evidence they knew existed and would be revealed in court along with the effects it would have on an 86 years of age old man that they knew to be innocent? You know why, cus they don't give a shít. They knew they wouldn't face any consequences if it was thrown out so why not let it go to court.

Not even going to get into the revolving door of our justice system where lowlifes are able to rack up 50+ convictions and still get to walk around free thanks to our corrupt judges helping line the pockets of solicitors and barristers.

The sooner people wake up to the fact that the legal system in this country is broken from the top down the better and hope that you or anyone belonging to you is never falsely accused of something like Sil Fox was. Judges, solicitors, the DPP, the Gardai. All a shower of corrupt scumbags.

P.s. all the things I mentioned above have only happened in the last few years. The corruption of this mob isn't even spread out over a couple of decades. Scary.

Yyhhuuu

Sil Fox is a very brave man. I dont know him personally but greatly admire his courage. I was delighted to learn he was completely vindicated of the utterly false allegations made against him..

Caquas

The dog that doesn’t bark is often the most important clue.

Sil Fox has been totally vindicated and he has raised an issue of public interest - the right to anonymity for defendants in sexual cases, like complainants. Think about all our T.D.s and Senators whose constant craving is for media attention. A comment on this case is guaranteed to generate media coverage but our politicians have suddenly taken a collective vow of silence.

A man whose whole life was devoted to making people laugh has become a pariah. Even though everyone knows he’s innocent, a cloud has descended and will never dissipate. The good news for his family is that he will become a multi-millionaire. He will get a settlement far higher than even our extravagant courts would award because there is no limit to what the State will spend to keep this out of court.

I’d say Frank Shortt’s €4,623,871 is the benchmark here. Aggravated damages because the Gardai and DPP refused to open their eyes.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/aggravated-damages-claim-by-victim-of-miscarriage-of-justice-encompassed-by-statutory-damages-award-1.509580

Mad_maxx

silver2020 wrote: »

Surely the gardai or the dpp don't pander to an accuser in the face of very obvious evidence?

This is a case of the gardai involved making assumption of guilt and ignoring evidence thinking something else would come out.

They set out to destroy Sil Fox though maliciousness and a what could be called a corrupt manner of investigation.

I sincerely hope that this is not "settled" and the gardai involved are questioned and become answerable for their actions

depends on how much pull the accuser has , the DPP goes by what the guards put in their charge sheet

Mad_maxx

walshb wrote: »

The gardai and the DPP need to be seriously quizzed here, more than this nasty woman.

The woman is an absolute lowlife, but my jaysus, how did such a scurrilous and fabricated pile of nastiness get by the gardai and the DPP?

Wtf is going on?

maybe she had pull ,maybe the guards dont like the accused for historical reasons

hard to know what the motives were

odyssey06

We have seen it in the States also and here multiple times in recent high profile cases.

Corrupt police who would have gotten away with a fit up job without modern recordings to exonerate the innocent.

rn

It's entirely possible the alleged perpetrator is not guilty and the accuser is not guilty of wasting investigation time or any crime at the same time.

What's definitely wrong here is that the accused is serves a sentence in the court of public opinion just by being named.

qm1bv4p8i92aoj

rn wrote: »

It's entirely possible the alleged perpetrator is not guilty and the accuser is not guilty of wasting investigation time or any crime at the same time.

What's definitely wrong here is that the accused is serves a sentence in the court of public opinion just by being named.

What the hell are you talking about? You think it's possible the proven liar of a woman actually imagined someone tickling her fanny for 30 second's? Fúcking hell. This comment is the exact type of shíte that is turning people against the me too movement. Jesus wept.

The mental gymnastics some people do to try and make out that a woman could never be guilty of absolute evil like this one was is astounding.

batman75

Where someone is falsely and maliciously accused of sexual assault the perpetrator should be named and shamed. This should not impinge on the willingness of actual victims of sexual assault from reporting an actual assault. Only at the point of conviction should the perpetrator be named.
What happened to Sil Fox and many other, mainly men, is an absolutely disgrace. The competence or otherwise of the Gardai also needs to be called into question here. If you don't have your good name you have nothing.
Sil Fox will deserve every euro he is awarded and no amount of money can restore your reputation when it has been maliciously damaged. The woman voluntarily gave up her right to her good name by making a malicious allegation.

...Ghost...

Esho wrote: »

How come he was named when the case broke here?

He was named because our great justice system thinks it's acceptable to name an accused person before the case even starts. Only those accused of rape may remain anonymous until a guilty verdict is announced. Lesser accusations allow an accused person be named while the accuser remains anonymous under nearly all circumstances.

Dempo1 wrote: »

Apologies Aledged Victim

I would use the word "complainant" or "accuser". She most definitely is not an alleged victim after it was proven she is a malicious nut job who should be locked up in a dark place where she can't hurt anyone else.

silver2020 wrote: »

And I know someone that has had a similar level of incompetence and maliciousness put on them (its even worse - they refused to accept medical evidence) and their case is going to the high court too.

:eek: That's horrible. Sorry to hear that. I'd be interested in seeing some details if you can shed any light on the circumstances without giving any identifiable information. I think accusations of this kind are the worst anyone can be accused of. I'd rather be accused of murder.

jimwallace197 wrote: »

The sooner women who make false accusations like this are held to account along with the garda and DPP, the better, that time is coming so don't get too comfortable.

'

It can't come soon enough. A few token prosecutions with almost no jail time is of little comfort to the years and lives lost by innocent people maliciously accused of such things.


The authorities should definitely be held to account when they make careless mistakes or are negligent in their duties. Men get arrested and confined all the time based solely on the word of the accuser. The Gardaí are failing abysmally in this regard alone.