Concurrent sentences

This is it

https://www.thejournal.ie/attempted-robbery-clondalkin-5131790-Jun2020/

Currently serving 5 years with 2 suspended, with 21 previous convictions, this scum pulled a knife on a man described by the judge as "vulnerable" to try rob the few pound he had.

Instead of a consecutive sentence, when it comes down to it he gets sweet fûck all for this attack. I understand this happens a lot, I don't understand how it's allowed to happen. No wonder our streets are littered with these toerags with previous convictions into double and treble digits.

What is the thought process here, how does it make sense? Is it an issue with overcrowding in our prisons, or are most judges just a bunch of fûcking clowns.

EmmetSpiceland

We won’t see “proper” sentences handed down unless we privatise the prison service.

Which isn’t going to happen any time soon. And, also, comes with its own problems.

One eyed Jack

This is it wrote: »

What is the thought process here, how does it make sense? Is it an issue with overcrowding in our prisons, or are most judges just a bunch of fûcking clowns.

This is essentially it - revolving door prison system.


Also in the same news today -


Fifty-five prisoners granted temporary release since start of March re-arrested

This is it

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is essentially it - revolving door prison system.


Also in the same news today -


Fifty-five prisoners granted temporary release since start of March re-arrested

Madness, and rage inducing.

Sarcozies

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

We won’t see “proper” sentences handed down unless we privatise the prison service.

Which isn’t going to happen any time soon. And, also, comes with its own problems.

Feels like you're going from one bad extreme to the other. What about we release everyone in jail for non violent drug offences and get them specialised care. Still full? Build another. No more double digit and triple digit convictions. Focus on rehabilitation for those that want it and those that can be saved.

Eric Cartman

concurrent sentencing should be reserved for non violent crimes on first conviction only. The idea that anyone can amass over 10 convictions and be out on the streets let alone receive additional convictions and have sentences run concurrently is barbaric.

We need two new super prisons built and to double down on reoffenders ending up in them for a lot longer.

irishproduce

I've said it many times. The state needs to go for it and build more prison capacity. Tax payers will be required to invest in it but given the choice, I'd pay the extra bit in tax to see more prison space so judges haven't got one eye on the overcrowding when sentencing.

Podge_irl

Any evidence that there is a correlation between expanding prison capacity and lowering crime?

Eric Cartman

Podge_irl wrote: »

Any evidence that there is a correlation between expanding prison capacity and lowering crime?

what else is the answer to reducing crime ? and don't say more welfare, rehabilitation programs etc... because it doesn't work.

Overheal

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

We won’t see “proper” sentences handed down unless we privatise the prison service.

Which isn’t going to happen any time soon. And, also, comes with its own problems.

No good comes from profiteering off of criminal justice.

Podge_irl

Eric Cartman wrote: »

what else is the answer to reducing crime ? and don't say more welfare, rehabilitation programs etc... because it doesn't work.

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12?r=US&IR=T

Rehabilitation programs do work they are just politically unpalatable to those who are more interested in punishing offenders and appearing "tough on crime" then having a properly working justice system. More prisons and higher sentences is a great example of emotion trumping evidence in how to tackle a problem.

nullzero

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

We won’t see “proper” sentences handed down unless we privatise the prison service.

Which isn’t going to happen any time soon. And, also, comes with its own problems.

We don't need an American style prison industrial complex type system, we do need to build more prisons, and people need to see the value in paying for it with their taxes. Less skangers on the streets, actual deterrents for being a scumbag to begin with. Finally bring an end to the farce of criminal prosecution in this country.

JohnnyFlash

irishproduce wrote: »

I've said it many times. The state needs to go for it and build more prison capacity. Tax payers will be required to invest in it but given the choice, I'd pay the extra bit in tax to see more prison space so judges haven't got one eye on the overcrowding when sentencing.

That's all well and good in principal, but the reality is that people who aren't directly affected by crime will mumble and grown about concurrent offenders, 200 previous convictions, and rural crime, but would rather tax spend be directed to things that put more money in their pocket.



Prisons are expensive to build, maintain, and operate. You see people losing the run of themselves over a 2 billion spend on the childrens hospital. Which will probably be operational for 40-50 years. Prisons will cost a similar figure.

This is it

What ever happened to the new "Super prison" that was to be built, or was at least spoken about. Thornton Hall or something, north of Finglas I think it was?

I don't know if that's the answer. As I said in the OP, I'd love to know the logic in concurrent sentences, especially for the likes of the lad in the article.

2u2me

Stop putting drug offenders into prison and free up room for the violent ones.

s7ryf3925pivug

He didnt just pull a knife. He cut his eye and caused significant visual impairment.

Not a fan of people threatening people with knives, but at the end of the day it is no more or less than an attempt to intimidate. Actually cutting someone's eye is a whole different league of psycho.

JohnnyFlash

This is it wrote: »

What ever happened to the new "Super prison" that was to be built, or was at least spoken about. Thornton Hall or something, north of Finglas I think it was?

I don't know if that's the answer. As I said in the OP, I'd love to know the logic in concurrent sentences, especially for the likes of the lad in the article.

The building of a new prison sounds great on paper. Lock em all up, and throw away the key. The reality is it would be enormously expensive, be the subject of years of planning complaints, and not situating it close to major transport routes presents loads of problems.



A far more effective use of John Q. Taxpayers money would be understanding why people commit crime in the first place; why they continue to commit crime, and what can we do about it. Unfortunately that might result in some unpleasant findings that very few of the myriad vested interests would like to hear about.



No simple solutions here, lads. Complex issue.

Eric Cartman

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The building of a new prison sounds great on paper. Lock em all up, and throw away the key. The reality is it would be enormously expensive, be the subject of years of planning complaints, and not situating it close to major transport routes presents loads of problems.



A far more effective use of John Q. Taxpayers money would be understanding why people commit crime in the first place; why they continue to commit crime, and what can we do about it. Unfortunately that might result in some unpleasant findings that very few of the myriad vested interests would like to hear about.



No simple solutions here, lads. Complex issue.

How about we make prison worse....and a lot cheaper. Like how much of the cost of a prison is eaten by prison comforts, could we not pull a japan on it.

Overheal

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How about we make prison worse....and a lot cheaper. Like how much of the cost of a prison is eaten by prison comforts, could we not pull a japan on it.

Looking to prune at their human rights?

If you’re going to dehumanize criminals just skip the illusion of justice and kill them already, don’t turn them into caged animals.

The vast majority of prisoners are in prison for their safety and rehabilitation and the safety of society but the endgame is reintegration.

JohnnyFlash

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How about we make prison worse....and a lot cheaper. Like how much of the cost of a prison is eaten by prison comforts, could we not pull a japan on it.

Well we can't have chain gangs or prisoners working for their stay under EU legislation. That's the free market you love, Eric. You couldn't have Irish prisoners producing police equipment (to use an example) when it would impact on the ability of a company in the EU who already produces it to make a profit. That's race to the bottom sort of stuff.

The horrors of libertarianism when using only a simple example.

Overheal

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Well we can't have chain gangs or prisoners working for their stay under EU legislation. That's the free market you love, Eric. You couldn't have Irish prisoners producing police equipment (to use an example) when it would impact on the ability of a company in the EU who already produces it to make a profit. That's race to the bottom sort of stuff.

The horrors of libertarianism when using only a simple example.

Is it really libertarian to employ slave labor, even as a form of punishment? Hmm.

Richard Hillman

When people know they are going to prison for a few years, its very common to commit a load of lesser crimes because they know the sentence will just be served during the bigger sentence. And it's not like they do extra prison, it's the same time in there.

A concurrent sentence is supposed to be for just say you steal a car, but inside the car is a phone, laptop, other valuables etc, instead of having a sentence for the car, then the phone, then the laptop, they can just give one sentence for the act.

Whereas under our shoddy legal system, if you go into the pub, glass somebody, walk out on to the street and assault somebody else, for some reason our ****ty judges will let the 2 crimes be served concurrently even though its 2 different acts. Not that they would probably do time for glassing somebody now a days.

JohnnyFlash

Overheal wrote: »

Is it really libertarian to employ slave labor, even as a form of punishment? Hmm.

I couldn't give a shíte about US libertarianism, dude. Pipe dream sort of stuff, rather like communists using iPhones.

CrankyHaus

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Prisons are expensive to build, maintain, and operate. You see people losing the run of themselves over a 2 billion spend on the childrens hospital. Which will probably be operational for 40-50 years. Prisons will cost a similar figure.

A prison would be expensive to build. But the infrastructure required, and thus the cost, doesn't compare to a hospital. You don't need gasses pipelined into every room, the fire safety issues that come from that, all the equipment, additional strength floors to support the weight of radiology equipment and shielding etc. You don't need anything close to the staffing costs either.

In addition there are a range of options to complement any new prison, reducing its capacity and therefore cost, or even remove the pressing need for one altogether. Tagging of criminals on house arrest is an obvious one; aling with better rehabilitation and ending the war on drugs. However the Criminal Justice system, like most of the Irish state, has a deep rooted aversion to change and to cost-efficient technological solutions. Even ones that have been long proven elsewhere are treated like Kryptonite by the Irish state.

Honestly though the how of it is not the real problem. The real problem is accepting that the current situation is unacceptable and has to change. We're nowhere near that point; simply because the people whose opinions matter aren't affected by the problem. In fact many of them make a good living off it and will fight tooth and nail against any threat to their meal ticket. The army of useful idiots that can be mobilised against reform, and even distort it as "Authoritarian" or "Fascist", highlights the power such people wield. Remember the 1996 bail referendum for example?

Eric Cartman

Overheal wrote: »

Looking to prune at their human rights?

If you’re going to dehumanize criminals just skip the illusion of justice and kill them already, don’t turn them into caged animals.

The vast majority of prisoners are in prison for their safety and rehabilitation and the safety of society but the endgame is reintegration.

absolutely, prisoners have too many rights and the re-offending rate is too high. The endgame has failed miserably. people with 10+ convictions have about as much chance of reforming as I do of winning the lotto....and I don't play the lotto.

Nermal

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The building of a new prison sounds great on paper. Lock em all up, and throw away the key. The reality is it would be enormously expensive.

Whereas the laissez-faire attitude we have to someone accumulating literally hundreds of convictions is costs us nothing, of course.

You know what's actually enormously expensive, JohnnyFlash? Paying and equipping police. Compensating the victims of crime. Security systems to deter crime. Free legal aid. The DPP. Running a prosecution. Exorbitant salaries for Judges. Witness protection. Jury duty. Appeals. Social workers, probation officers.

'Lock em all up, and throw away the key' is by comparison the bargain of the century.

Podge_irl

Nermal wrote: »

'Lock em all up, and throw away the key' is by comparison the bargain of the century.

It also doesn't work.

Eric Cartman

Podge_irl wrote: »

It also doesn't work.

I would say it works fractionally better than 'rehabilitation' . Could you imagine how many problems we wouldn't have if everyone with 10+ convictions here was never on the streets ever again.

Nermal

Podge_irl wrote: »

It also doesn't work.

At the individual level, it obviously does. There's rather limited scope to commit crime in prison.

At the societal level, how do you know? We haven't tried it.

suicide_circus

prison sentences for low level drug possession is insanity

concurrent sentences for violent crimes is also insanity

Podge_irl

Nermal wrote: »

At the societal level, how do you know? We haven't tried it.

Others have. Unless you think we're somehow super special.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I would say it works fractionally better than 'rehabilitation'.

You will struggle to find any actual evidence to back this feeling up though.