Concurrent sentences

paw patrol

I'd be off the opinion that only few non-violent crimes should warrant a sentence inside.
There should be other non custodial sentences handed out.
Remove the continual dangers to society from society.


although i still think concurrent sentencing is a good thing and a valuable tool in the courts working

El_Duderino 09

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The building of a new prison sounds great on paper. Lock em all up, and throw away the key. The reality is it would be enormously expensive, be the subject of years of planning complaints, and not situating it close to major transport routes presents loads of problems.



A far more effective use of John Q. Taxpayers money would be understanding why people commit crime in the first place; why they continue to commit crime, and what can we do about it. Unfortunately that might result in some unpleasant findings that very few of the myriad vested interests would like to hear about.

No simple solutions here, lads. Complex issue.

I think that's precisely the point. The cost of building and maintaining prisoners is high enough. But the cost of solving the problems associated with crime in the first case is going to be much, much higher (it would probably mean designing a less unequal society).

So the solution they actually land on is to do neither. If the actual costs and consequences were laid out to people, cost of solving the problems is probably much higher than anyone wants to pay. So they just ignore the problem instead.

na1

irishproduce wrote: »

I've said it many times. The state needs to go for it and build more prison capacity. Tax payers will be required to invest in it but given the choice, I'd pay the extra bit in tax to see more prison space so judges haven't got one eye on the overcrowding when sentencing.

Who do pay extra? Why do Ireland spend in around 75k per year per inmate?

For example in some Eastern countries, the prison system is actually slightly profitable: the labor camps solve the problem.

na1

Podge_irl wrote: »

Any evidence that there is a correlation between expanding prison capacity and lowering crime?

I used to google the different sources, according to official sources the burglary rate per 100k population in UK is about 3 times higher than in Russia.

TheBoyConor

The problem isn't soft judges, or them being clowns, they are far from it.

The actual problem is that the prisons are all overcroweded as it is even with suspended and concurrent sentencing. To "get tough" on crime and start handing out "real" custodial sentences would not work as it would just result in more serious overcrowding problems, and safety problems in prisons and governors would have no choice but to just release prisoners who are in for less non-violent crimes.

Basically, there is finite space in prisons, and you can't just stack people into cell 4 high. There would be human rights violations and compensation claims left right and centre over it.

of course you might say the solution is to just build more prisons. Yeah. People forget that there is votes in fixing roads, improving the health service, schools, etc and there are feck all votes to be got by promoting the building of prisons. It won't be popular, politicians won't go for it or give money to it, and no-body would want a prison built near them so there would be massive protests and objections.

As for people talking about wanting harsh conditions, labour camps and all that, come on. Get a grip. Anything along those lines would be a backward step not to mention a contravention of both the European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights and Bunreacht na hEireann. Anyone that thinks we can just decide to ignore bits of those just because needs to cop themselves on.

na1

TheBoyConor wrote: »

T

The actual problem is that the prisons are all overcroweded as it is even with suspended and concurrent sentencing.

Still they imprisoning people for not paying TV license:

While Suzanne managed to present her license at court days later, she could not afford to pay the €220 fine.

She went on:

"I don't have it. We've one wage coming in, I don't have any social welfare or anything like that."

https://www.her.ie/life/dublin-mum-terrified-as-she-gets-prison-time-for-failing-to-pay-tv-license-279883

TheBoyConor

Yeah, people get sent to prison for TV licence and parking fines and so on, but the don't serve their sentence. They go in, go through all the sign in procedures and then sit in a waiting room for a few hours and are then released for good behaviour in the afternoon, and off they go.
A friend of the family did it. Gardai collected her at home, drover her up, do all the sign in, wait etc, then they drove her back home. Apparently they were very nice and good banter on the car journey.

Nermal

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Anyone that thinks we can just decide to ignore bits of those just because needs to cop themselves on.

We made the laws that checkmate us into coddling criminals and paying compensation to them. We can unmake them. It's not good enough to throw your hands skywards and bemoan that nothing can be done.

TheBoyConor

No, you can't unmake the EU Charter or the Irish Constitution. And you certainly wouldn't be able to do it in a way that just makes exceptions for prisons and allow lawmakers to do what they like and disimprove conditions.

Same is often said about legal aid that you should only get it once or whatever. No point arguing about that. EU CFM says that those who are in need of legal aid are entitled to have it. End of. If we made a law that was repugnant to that, it would be invalid and could not be brought into effect.

na1

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Yeah, people get sent to prison for TV licence and parking fines and so on, but the don't serve their sentence. They go in, go through all the sign in procedures and then sit in a waiting room for a few hours and are then released for good behaviour in the afternoon, and off they go.
A friend of the family did it. Gardai collected her at home, drover her up, do all the sign in, wait etc, then they drove her back home. Apparently they were very nice and good banter on the car journey.

But after that you'll fail the garda vetting applications, right?

Overheal

na1 wrote: »

Who do pay extra? Why do Ireland spend in around 75k per year per inmate?

For example in some Eastern countries, the prison system is actually slightly profitable: the labor camps solve the problem.

Slavery solves nothing. That’s what it is by another name: slavery. You don’t reintegrate people that way. You create a profit motive for growing the prison system beyond the actual needs of society.

na1

Overheal wrote: »

Slavery solves nothing. That’s what it is by another name: slavery. You don’t reintegrate people that way. You create a profit motive for growing the prison system beyond the actual needs of society.

Well, the current system with many people having between 60 and 600 convictions (And a very high rate of burglaries & car theft) has proved to fail isn't it? .

Singapore has caning & death penalties the crime rate is a way much lower,
and they still don't spent 75k per inmate

Overheal

na1 wrote: »

Well, the current system with many people having between 60 and 600 convictions (And a very high rate of burglaries & car theft) has proved to fail isn't it? .

Singapore has caning & death penalties the crime rate is a way much lower,
and they still don't spent 75k per inmate

The west isn’t Singapore and won’t become Singapore and doesn’t aspire to be Singapore. I know you’ve been banging that horse for a decade but the meats rotted off those dry bones.

The United States has penal slave labor and the death penalty yet 25% of the world population for prisoners at a staggering cost. Cruel and unusual punishment doesn’t seem to mete out justice.

Nermal

TheBoyConor wrote: »

No, you can't unmake the EU Charter or the Irish Constitution.

We have unmade it 38 times, including the bringing into force of that charter.

irishproduce

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

That's all well and good in principal, but the reality is that people who aren't directly affected by crime will mumble and grown about concurrent offenders, 200 previous convictions, and rural crime, but would rather tax spend be directed to things that put more money in their pocket.



Prisons are expensive to build, maintain, and operate. You see people losing the run of themselves over a 2 billion spend on the childrens hospital. Which will probably be operational for 40-50 years. Prisons will cost a similar figure.

Fine. It's a useful public service which provides necessary social protections.
Let's fund it.