The scandal and thrill of watching same-sex kissing on TV

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just saying it is no ok does not make it not ok. You certainly have never actually explained a single thing wrong with it. It's _hands_. Touching _hands_. It is hardly some world ending event. It's something all humans of all ages and all genders do.

All these years later and you still don’t appear to have grasped the concept that nobody has a right to display affection for each other in public, and people do have a right to make a complaint if they find something offensive. Nobody has ever argued that it’s a world ending event, but some people when they’re asked to desist from PDA act like their world has indeed come crashing down around them :pac:

It’s really simple - most people know how to behave appropriately in public. Then there are the small minority who are pretty much clueless about how to behave appropriately in public, and they have told that their behaviour is inappropriate, and that’s all that happened that couple in the restaurant.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

All these years later and you still don’t appear to have grasped the concept that nobody has a right to display affection for each other in public, and people do have a right to make a complaint if they find something offensive.

They do not have the _right_ to do so? What does that even mean? I have every right to put my hand where I want so long as it does not break any laws. You are literally inventing rights out of your imagination. Two people sitting in a restaurant or walking down the road have every right to display PDA if they so wish. There is nothing stopping them at all. And the thread is about the Pride we should all feel that we are slowly moving towards a society where one particular group is less and less being singled out for abuse and even violence for doing something everyone else does and almost never gets noticed.

No one I know of has suggest no one has the right to complain either. Complain all you like. All I have ever said is you have not yet given a reason why such a complaint should be taken seriously - let alone acted on.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s really simple - most people know how to behave appropriately in public.

Exactly. And you and a tiny minority simply inventing that hand holding is not "appropriate" does not magically make it not appropriate. You can say it "after all these years" over and over again. But "after all these years" simply saying it over and over has not magically changed reality out here in the real world.

One or two people being bothered by something does _not_ make it inappropriate. Other than repeating over and over that _you_ do not find it appropriate personally - have you any actual arguments to give that it is so? So far not it seems.

Gruffalux

Having been at some rough wild parties back in the day where absolutely hammered people were riding each other beside paths, on the lawn, in an actual booth in a club occupied by others, and on top of a (low) wall in one case, I am all in favour of gay people holding hands and snogging in public at will. It's a blessed relief for my eyes to see a bit of old fasioned love!

Gruffalox

Gruffalox wrote: »

It's a blessed relief for my eyes to see a bit of old fasioned love!

With a news media full of riots - racism - war - protests - and more. It is also a blessed relief to go sit somewhere in public and see the occasional couple clearly in love. Love is the most beautiful thing - even more so in the current climate.

That people are bothered by it as if its "inappropriate" or somehow "bad manners" - for no other reason than they declare it to be so - says more about them than the people holding hands walking down the road.

Conor Bourke

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They do, for any number of reasons, however according to your logic if people who have issues with being verbally abused in public would just watch more of it on tv, they would become desensitised to it, like it’s their responsibility and not the responsibility of the people giving off verbal abuse to sort themselves out.

I’ve been subjected to verbal abuse and harassment many times in public, been beaten up a couple of times too. Throughout my life I’ve known plenty of people with similar stories. The only reason you imagine I couldn’t know what I’m talking about is because you’re only thinking of yourself.

Unless you were abused, harassed or beaten because of you openly expressing your sexuality, it’s not relevant to the topic of this thread so stop trying to shoehorn in irrelevant details.

Homelander

Deleted User wrote: »

No one suggested they were That is why I put the "" around "crime". They were asked to leave by the management - which I already pointed out - after some customers - probably only one customer - complained about it -which I also already pointed out.

That article was utter vague nonsense when it was first released. A high-class Dublin restaurant asking a couple to leave because they're gay and holding hands?

100% more to it than that. In fact if I remember correctly there were details in the original article like they were jeered as they were ordered to leave.

If you believe they were asked to leave the restaurant because they were gay and minding their own business....or because a single customer complained.....I think that's incredibly naive.

Homelander

Homelander wrote: »

That article was utter vague nonsense when it was first released. A high-class Dublin restaurant asking a couple to leave because they're gay and holding hands?

Almost. I think it was more " A high-class Dublin restaurant asking a couple to leave because they're gay and holding hands - and some people, possibly only one person in fact - moaned about it".

In that I would expect that had a customer not noticed and been bothered by it - the restaurant and restaurant staff might not even have noticed it at all. I know what working in such busy environments is like. You tend to be too busy to notice irrelevant minutia.

Homelander

And I still call total BS on a Dublin restaurant asking a gay couple to leave because a single customer complained they were "holding hands".

Who knows. I can only go on what was reported. I can not invent or make up additional details to suit myself. I am not naive enough to think that the media report every story accurately or completely. But at the same time I can not respond by simply filling in blanks with facts of my own choice either.

Homelander

But you have formed an opinion based on a vague, anonymous and entirely likely bogus article. You've used it above to highlight so called opposition to gay couples showing basic affection in public - and claimed people on this site supported it.

When in the original thread, people were a) skeptical of the story and b) talking about being against PDA in public.

Galwayguy35

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

I was about 11, this was in 1996. I remember my mother nearly falling off the couch when it happened, I thought it was gas.

Yeah that was the first time I saw it on the tele as well, didn't think it was way back in 1996 the time is flying by.

Homelander

Homelander wrote: »

But you have formed an opinion based on a vague, anonymous and entirely likely bogus article. You've used it above to highlight so called opposition to gay couples showing basic affection in public - and claimed people on this site supported it.

When in the original thread, people were a) skeptical of the story and b) talking about being against PDA in public.

I do not think it "entirely likely" bogus. It is _possibly_ not accurate but that's the same thing you can say about any article in any news paper. There is nothing that particularly makes this article any more likely to be bogus or incomplete than any other. Other than pretence. Articles in our media should inform us but also be taken with caution. But arbitrarily calling one more likely to be bogus than any other - that is just random guess work probably fuelled or influenced by bias.

But no I did not "Form an opinion based on" any one article. The article is an example of something - nothing more. My opinions on the topic of sexuality - peoples response to the sexuality of others - PDA - and the progress of society for which we should take pride as is the subject of the thread - are all things I have formed over many years of direct and indirect experience and study.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Not the first, but one of the more eye-opening, being in a children's cartoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btj9z3tl2Sg

KaneToad

I remember both the Brookside and EastEnders scenes. They were very newsworthy at the time.

Anyone who says otherwise is lying and just trying to act like a homosexual kiss on a TV soap was no big deal. It was a bold move by the respective producers and has led to today's situation where such a scene is the norm - as it should be.

Homelander

Deleted User wrote: »

I do not think it "entirely likely" bogus. It is _possibly_ not accurate but that's the same thing you can say about any article in any news paper. There is nothing that particularly makes this article any more likely to be bogus or incomplete than any other. Other than pretence.

It's an agony aunt letter. No more believable than "I'm banging my mum's stepdad" or "I've gotten three girls at work pregnant and my wife is expecting twins".

No names, locations, nothing whatsoever other than a radical claim that at surface level is completely unlikely to have a) happened at all or b) happened anywhere near to likely as what is claimed.

Using it as an example of modern day opposition to gay couples is laughable. And, you already claimed that people on this site supported it in principle. Please link to where people supported it, rather than questioned the article or stated opposition to general PDA.

Homelander

Homelander wrote: »

It's an agony aunt letter.

What I read was not a letter no. Perhaps the issue here is we both read different things and so we are talking past each other?

As I said I can only go on what was reported. I can not make up facts to suit myself. But as I also said it was an _example_ and nothing more. If we get caught up discussing an example or analogy - rather than the point that was being made while referring to the example or analogy - then conversation tends to break down. In my experience.

The thread - my point - and the example are all related to one theme. The normalisation of behaviours over time that once might have been considered offensive or scandalous or shocking - but which are now so accepted that for the most part they hardly get noticed.

Regardless of whether the restaurant story was real or not - the point is that the number of people who are likely to be bothered - hell who are likely to even notice - mild PDA between two men in a public setting seems to be dying off.

I fear there will always be an offended minority who are bothered by minutia. Threads on boards about things like breast feeding in public are testament to that for example. Most people do not see the issue or care - but there is always one or two calling it vile or disgusting or inappropriate or wrong or bad manners or whatever label they decide to pluck out of nowhere and act like it is a defacto standard outside their own heads.

The MO tends to be the same though. They can not actually argue in any way that the act is wrong. So they simply shout that it is "bad manners" or "inappropriate" as if that automatically means it is. Just like back when the first on screen gay kisses happened there were likely people shouting about how wrong it was. Ask a single one of them why or how it was actually wrong - and I sincerely doubt any of them had an answer. A doubt I base on having been in many many conversations over the last 20 years about homosexuality with people who shouted about how wrong it was - but when asked how or why it was wrong simply could not say. Cept of course for the "God made adam and eve not adam and steve" folks of course. They at least _had_ a reason even if the reason was nonsense.

Homelander wrote: »

Using it as an example of modern day opposition to gay couples is laughable.

Lucky that is not what I was using it as an example of then isn't it? I was using it as an example of the opposite. That such opposition and the people fuelling such opposition are dying off more and more. The whole point of the example was that it was _5 years ago_. Like the Gay Cake Controversy. I was using it as an example of how I feel we have come a long way - over many years but continuing to in the last 5 too.

Now maybe there still are such stories happening and I have simply missed them. My engagement with news media has been reduced of late. But the point of my citing that example was that I had to go back 5 years just to think of an example.

So I think my point is not "laughable" because my intent was the direct opposite of the reason you would find it laughable.

Homelander wrote: »

And, you already claimed that people on this site supported it in principle. Please link to where people supported it, rather than questioned the article or stated opposition to general PDA.

Not the claim I made. My exact words were "a minority then too argued either in favour of them being asked to leave - or in favour of the expectation that the management _should_ be expected to do something about it.". That is that they were arguing in favour of the couple being asked to leave or the management to intervene in PDA. In _this_ example it was homosexual PDA but nowhere in my words did I say I was limiting my comment to just that.

So why would I need to link to people stating more than "opposition to general PDA" when my position does not demand that? You are asking me to evidence claims I have not actually made. However I do happily add that given that PDA is exceedingly common in public especially in restaurants which are traditionally one of the top destinations for romantic dates remember - it is interesting how few cases we hear of heterosexual PDAs attracting comment - let alone removal - in such contexts.

PDA for me is rare. Not consciously any more - it is just the person I am. But I still do do them. In the past if I felt a moment of PDA coming on I would check myself. Pull my hand back. Simply because there was a background fear that abuse or violence would follow. Because PDA in my relationship - simply because my relationship differs a bit from the norm - has actually on a number of occasions sparked abuse and violence. But over time I have found that fear has died off into the background and then disappeared. And this is a _good thing_. I like the occasional PDA. Or more accurately I like DA - the P is incidental and I neither want to perform DA nor withold DA solely because the P is or is not in play.

Especially in restaurants. It is nice to reach over and hold hands between courses. Sometimes nice to feed each other samples of our own dishes for the other to try. If I go to a restaurant with either of my girlfriends - which I have done innumerable times over the last 10 years - there has not been one single situation where this appears to have attracted any attention at all that I have been made aware of. However when they go and do this with each other - without me - and do exactly the same thing: Well thankfully responses have been rare but not non-existent. They have never been outright asked to leave - but they have been asked to stop and/or it was suggested they "might like to leave". But again of the number of anecdotes they have about this - the near totality of them are in the first half of our relationship not the latter. Why? Well I can only guess - but again my guess is that this simply has normalised over time and now less people care or even notice.

That is an anecdote of one of course and I get that. Our experiences are not a universal and I would not pretend them to be so. But PDAs are happening all the time everywhere. And I think the topic of this thread - forgive me OP if I am wrong - is that one particular group of people are singled out disproportionately for comment abuse or even violence historically for this. And the "pride" worth celebrating not just by that group but by society as a whole is that this appears to be dying off more and more. And what once would have been a "scandal" to us is now not at all except to a tiny vocal angry group of moaners. I take some pride in that myself because I have done a lot of activism work around the subject of rights and acceptance of sexualities. Perhaps my overall effect as an individual is tiny for sure - but I still feel I can share in the pride and credit that the OP speaks so passionately about.

Anyway the entire thread for the discussion about it at the time was here. It is overall not a great read of a thread. And admittedly I am not blameless for that myself

Ten of Swords

The origin of that restaurant story was a letter written to GCN magazine. Here it is verbatim

https://www.boards.ie/mobile/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97547365&postcount=102

It was discussed in great detail at the time

TheValeyard

I think the incest storyline between brother and sister in Brookside shocked me more than gay kiss on screen when I was young.

Ten of Swords

Ten of Swords wrote: »

The origin of that restaurant story was a letter written to GCN magazine. Here it is verbatim

Ah yes. I remember the article at the time. I had forgotten I had read the letter too.

Anyway it was not my intention to make this thread a clone of that previous one. It was just the most recent example I could think of - and I have distracted from the intention of both my point and the the OPs thread by bring it up it seems. So apologies for that. I will try to stick to my original point without using that particular example if it helps.

Grab All Association

The lesbian kiss scene in the movie Thirteen is hot. I was 15 when I first seen that movie. Seen lesbian kissing on TV before that but nothing as memorable.

https://youtu.be/tgbrNFGtKys

B.A._Baracus

I was only a kid and too young to fully understand it but it was some early 90s british show where two dudes kissed.
As a kid I went ewwwwwwwww. Didn't see or know of the concept of gay really. Mammy and daddies only kiss and never daddies and daddies lol.

I forget the name of the show.

Grab All Association

Grab All Association wrote: »

The lesbian kiss scene in the movie Thirteen is hot.

Actual kiss scenes I do not think are all that hot myself. It is what goes on around the kiss that I find more compelling.

A 17 year old Saoirse Ronan is a good example in the movie Hanna. There is a teen girls kissing scene in that one. I remember the lead up - and I remember that ultimately the little brother of one of the girls bursts in and ruins the moment.

All I remember of the scene was how well they captured the tension of the kiss. Including some intimate camera work and some ASMR style sound recording of the girls talking.

To be absolutely honest I can not remember if they ever actually kiss. The kiss - if it even happened - was irrelevant and incidental. If it happened then I found it not at all memorable.

But the intimacy and tension of the lead up to the possible kiss I found very moving and memorable.

Gruffalux

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actual kiss scenes I do not think are all that hot myself. It is what goes on around the kiss that I find more compelling.

A 17 year old Saoirse Ronan is a good example in the movie Hanna. There is a teen girls kissing scene in that one. I remember the lead up - and I remember that ultimately the little brother of one of the girls bursts in and ruins the moment.

All I remember of the scene was how well they captured the tension of the kiss. Including some intimate camera work and some ASMR style sound recording of the girls talking.

To be absolutely honest I can not remember if they ever actually kiss. The kiss - if it even happened - was irrelevant and incidental. If it happened then I found it not at all memorable.

But the intimacy and tension of the lead up to the possible kiss I found very moving and memorable.

Ah Jesus that's so gay.

In some ways - I do hope it is

Sonics2k

How pathetically fragile must you be to have to change channel or look away when two men kiss on TV?

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

How pathetically fragile must you be to have to change channel or look away when two men kiss on TV?

Ah I dunno - I have a respect for people who realise they are the ones with the issue and simply change the channel - or get up and leave the restaurant - or turn their back - and get on with their lives.

The pathetic fragile ones are the ones who write to the news paper - the tv station - or complain to the management to get the object of their offence removed or censored. Declaring things to be "inappropriate" or "bad manners" or "offensive" when they really aren't.

As if society's job is to protect them from themselves and their own sense of privilege and offence. That we should all be falling over ourselves to censor or curtail our own words and deeds in case _they_ might get offended by it.

JupiterKid

And for those of an outraged nature at the mere thought of two men in love/kissing/being intimate with each other, here are few to get your blood pressure going... :pac:


Two London policemen kiss after one proposed marriage to his fiancée at London Pride 2016





Former Welsh rugby and Lions captain Gareth Thomas and his husband, Ian Baum share a bubble bath in their home

freshpopcorn

I can’t remember to be honest. The whole Gay thing wasn’t really mad an issue of in our house. It took me a while to relies that two men or two women could be a couple.
There was bits and pieces on the TV over the years not much really said about it at home but things would have being said at school the next day.

Bobblehats

JupiterKid wrote: »

So they are a thing; huh

JupiterKid

In the news today: Canadian naval officer shares a kiss with his partner after returning from active duty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZHSM3lOE08

PsychoPete

Kylta wrote: »

I get a thrill from watching lesbian porn. And after saying that I don't think thats what the OPs was looking for in reply to their post.

The Lesbians you see in real life are nothing like the lesbians that are on the internet

Sorry about that

Sonics2k wrote: »

How pathetically fragile must you be to have to change channel or look away when two men kiss on TV?

That's unfair. Gay kissing doesn't bother me any more than straight kissing on tv, but to suggest that someone who finds it unappealing, is "pathetically fragile", smacks of thought control! Like what I like, you hear me???

Kylta

PsychoPete wrote: »

The Lesbians you see in real life are nothing like the lesbians that are on the internet

You're joking...
I actually know a lot of lesbians, I've members of my extended family that are actually gay and lesbians. I can tell the difference between porn and and real life. Saying that I like lesbian porn.

An Ri rua

I was so sure this was another Mr Fegelien thread...

PsychoPete

Kylta wrote: »

You're joking...
I actually know a lot of lesbians, I've members of my extended family that are actually gay and lesbians. I can tell the difference between porn and and real life. Saying that I like lesbian porn.

I've done extensive research, I know what I'm talking about

GoatBoy74

Kylta wrote: »

You're joking...
I actually know a lot of lesbians, I've members of my extended family that are actually gay and lesbians. I can tell the difference between porn and and real life. Saying that I like lesbian porn.

+1 for the auld Lesbian porn.

freshpopcorn

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I can’t remember to be honest. The whole Gay thing wasn’t really mad an issue of in our house. It took me a while to relies that two men or two women could be a couple.
There was bits and pieces on the TV over the years not much really said about it at home but things would have being said at school the next day.

I'm laughing here but I actually agree and relate to you, the "whole gay thing" wasn't an issue in our house, either, until my sister came out. I think when someone you love experiences personal barriers, it changes everything. You ask questions about the world, questions that previously, wouldn't even have occurred to you. I hate this kind of discrimination nearly as much as I love my sister, "the whole gay thing" was never on my register before. But it's such a visible injustice when your own sibling seems to have fewer rights than you have, and when it becomes personally important, it's like an itch that you can't ignore.

riclad

I think we have moved on a lot in the last 5 years.
It's strange that there were headlines in the papers just because 2 women kissed in a TV
soap in brookside on channel 4.
Part of the remit of c4 was to make more diverse programs
showing more minoritys including lesbian or gay
characters.