Why do people love hating on monuments we inherited from British rule.

ILoveYourVibes

joseywhales wrote: »

I am not to worried about the Norman invasions either way, I thought they integrated, even spoke Irish eventually, I think the plantations are the real start of the problems.

Not exactly.

Not at first. After a few generations ..yes ..but they still called themselves Englishmen born in Ireland.

The term old english vrs New english becomes a thing then. Or Seanghaill old foreigners.

The tudors became known as the New English.

Many of the old english were now dispossed for being the wrong religion or simply falling out of favor with the new ruling class.

The old english had remained catholic.

And now the new term irish catholic applied to both gaelic irish and anglo old english.

They were then both barred from positions of wealth and power by the so-called New English settlers, who became known as the Protestant Ascendancy.

Which is a warning for those who want to base their well being on privilege rather than rights.

But yes by the 1500's they all spoke irish ..adopted irish ways irish clothes etc. . Even in the pale they spoke Irish.Irish was very widely spoken in the Pale well into the 19th century.

But there was still a slight distinction between them outside of the pale too. The english irish could pull in favors etc and had the upper hand.
They COULD speak english. However preferred to speak Irish ..even among themselves. But they were STILL the landowners over the old irish.


You then have the tudor conquest. And the NEW english.

joseywhales

theological wrote: »

Yes, but the past is a key part of shaping the present and the future. A sizeable amount of my own genetics come back to people who arrived from England and Scotland. I also have a sizeable segment of Irish ancestry. Should one bemoan ones origins just because ones ancestors may have been subjects in a regime that did lots of terrible things?

Or is it better simply to acknowledge the past and see how it has impacted the present. I'm more in this camp.

I think a lot of Irish history is focussed purely on republican history rather than taking a more holistic view, and I think a lot of it is about bemoaning the past. I'm not sure how healthy that is particularly when it can inform unhelpful attitudes towards British people today.

It's helpful also to question some of the unquestionable sacred cows that people have erected such as the legitimacy of the 1916 rising given that most people were opposed to it initially.

It's definitely something worth talking about, along with the idea of whether or not we're willing to examine negative things about our own past.

Yes I agree.

I always find ancestry laughable anyway, the exponential growth in the number of ancestors you have had per generation you go back means a majority have some royalty, some peasant, some devil's and some angels. It says little about the modern day person apart from entertainment (and genetic diseases which are important)

But we cannot forget what happened either because as ludicrous as it sounds now it could very well happen again being next to a dominant neighbour over a horizon of say thousands of years. We live in a time of unprecedented prosperity now but it won't necessarily always be the case.

ILoveYourVibes

I'm not sure how healthy that is particularly when it can inform unhelpful attitudes towards British people today

But forming an attitude toward a people and a govt are different things.

Most british people obviously are against colonialism and are horrified by it.

Frankie Machine

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s equally the height of obliviousness to history to argue that people shouldn’t be bothered by having a constant reminder of the shìtty things the British Government at the time were responsible for inflicting upon Irish society.

Rowan Gillespie's Famine Memorial is a constant reminder of the ****ty things the British government inflicted, so your 'constant reminder' thing doesn't, of itself, add up.

Anyway, being bothered by something isn't a good enough reason by itself to deface or destroy it.

The trend towards defacing and destruction of statues and monuments, is braindead mob stuff, and certainly not much to do with appreciation for history.

ILoveYourVibes

Originally Posted by BattleCorp View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the British put in pretty good infrastructure like railways etc. that would have helped colonies to prosper? Yes, that infrastructure was used to extract as much as possible from the colony but now that the Brits are gone, that infrastructure can be of benefit to the ex-colony.

You are wrong.


My evidence? Have you SEEN the roads outside of DUBLIN??

WHAT INFRASTRUCTURE?

LillySV

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are wrong.


My evidence? Have you SEEN the roads outside of DUBLIN??

WHAT INFRASTRUCTURE?

No they actually did ... they made excellent roads and railway tracks connected al of Ireland... and then the Irish people voted in useless assholes decade after decade... failed to maintain anything .. blew our money away through corruption... which has led us here

I’m looking at a pic on the wall behind me as I speak of a light rail track running down from beyond eyre square to shop street in Galway..period 1880-1900... yet we dream of the gluas now ... we already had it and took it up!

It's funny they only notice them now. they have been there for 100 years, no?

Del.Monte

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are wrong.


My evidence? Have you SEEN the roads outside of DUBLIN??

WHAT INFRASTRUCTURE?

Yeah, they should have built a motorway network prior to their leaving in 1922. :rolleyes:

ILoveYourVibes

LillySV wrote: »

No they actually did ... they made excellent roads and railway tracks connected al of Ireland... and then the Irish people voted in useless assholes decade after decade... failed to maintain anything .. blew our money away through corruption... which has led us here

I’m looking at a pic on the wall behind me as I speak of a light rail track running down from beyond eyre square to shop street in Galway..period 1880-1900... yet we dream of the gluas now ... we already had it and took it up!

Are you jokin me?

The Irish were on the receiving end of a policy of expropriation and `ethnic cleansing' every bit as ruthless as that which would be attempted in North America.


Subsistence agriculture -- with any surplus pocketed by an alien landlord class -- condemned the Irish to grinding poverty and, ultimately, starvation.

Is this infrastructure?

By 1820 income of the poor in Briton were nearly two-and-a-half times those in Ireland.


If this infrastructure was so great why were the people so poor? Why were they fleeing by the millions to the US ..fleeing from this great infrastructure??

:pac:

Our infrastructure was a joke compared to the UK.
Compared to most european countries!

Junkyard Tom

BattleCorp wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the British put in pretty good infrastructure like railways etc. that would have helped colonies to prosper? Yes, that infrastructure was used to extract as much as possible from the colony

You kinda answer your own question.

British shareholders made absurd amounts of money by investing in the railways, where the government guaranteed returns double those of government stocks, paid entirely from Indian, and not British, taxes. It was a splendid racket for Britons, at the expense of the Indian taxpayer.

Shashi Tharoor

but now that the Brits are gone, that infrastructure can be of benefit to the ex-colony.

I guess so.

Zebra3

screamer wrote: »

Indeed the war where the British invented concentration camps for the Boer farmers and their families, awful stuff.

And Hitler loved what the Brits did, they inspired him.

BattleCorp

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are wrong.

My evidence? Have you SEEN the roads outside of DUBLIN??

WHAT INFRASTRUCTURE?

I think that might be more to do with what we have done with that infrastructure since the Brits left, over 100 years ago.

Odhinn

Rubberchikken wrote: »

The British empire brought prosperity to many parts of the world.
It allowed people who would still be living under bushes a chance of an education and work.

Their might came in handy at times of war.
Their influence is still felt today in many corners of the globe.

Yes mistakes were made but you can't make an omelette without breaking the eggs.

Africa as a continent seems incapable of digging itself out of the mire and achieving something. Left alone it would have disappeared to nothing at this stage.

The 1800's were on - they want their colonialist excuses back.

The J Stands for Jay

TheBoyConor wrote: »

We were never "part of britain". We are Ireland.

I feel you are deliberately trying to inflame people with those sort of statements.

For over 8000 years, the British army have oppressed the Irish people. They continue to do so to this day in the stolen 7 counties.

The UK is no longer in the European Union, therefore it is now more of a foreign country than ever before and their foreign occupying forces and institutions have no business on this Emerald Isle.

What's the 7th county? Dublin?

coolbeans

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

But forming an attitude toward a people and a govt are different things.

Most british people obviously are against colonialism and are horrified by it.

Most British people have a positive attitude to colonialism. You presume too much.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2020/03/11/how-unique-are-british-attitudes-empire

https://whorunsbritain.blogs.lincoln.ac.uk/2016/02/02/what-does-the-british-public-really-think-about-the-empire/

walshb

Everyone is a a colonialist

It's part of what makes us human.....

Progress, conquer, empower, procreate, take over and become superior

If it wasn't the Brits doing it it, it was others....whomever had the power and the numbers and the following.....

We are all just people on earth all trying to dominate and prosper and fight and love and all that...

I used to be all Irish this and Irish that...

If global imperialism did not exist we'd be centuries in the past...

BattleCorp

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Are you jokin me?

No.

The Irish were on the receiving end of a policy of expropriation and `ethnic cleansing' every bit as ruthless as that which would be attempted in North America.

True but nothing to do with infrastructure.

Subsistence agriculture -- with any surplus pocketed by an alien landlord class -- condemned the Irish to grinding poverty and, ultimately, starvation.

Is this infrastructure?

Nope, it's not infrastructure.

I know they did sh1te things, and caused untold misery but that's nothing to do with me discussing infrastructure.

By 1820 income of the poor in Briton were nearly two-and-a-half times those in Ireland.

Again, what has that to do with infrastructure?

If this infrastructure was so great why were the people so poor? Why were they fleeing by the millions to the US ..fleeing from this great infrastructure??

You do realise people can't eat roads or railway networks. At that time, the infrastructure mainly benefitted the British. It made it easier for them to get around and exploit the Irish. That said, they still built the infrastructure, much of it used by us today.

Our infrastructure was a joke compared to the UK.
Compared to most european countries!

Probably so. But to deny the Brits built stuff here that benefits us today is incorrect. One example, Heuston Station in Dublin. Opened in 1846 by the Brits and used by us today.

walshb

The British did a lot of stuff here that benefited us...

walshb

walshb wrote: »

The British did a lot of stuff here that benefited us...

And a whole lot more that didn’t. Every sniff of the bastards should be eradicated, their grip is over.

BattleCorp

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

And a whole lot more that didn’t. Every sniff of the bastards should be eradicated, their grip is over.

Lets demolish the railways so. Heuston Station first.

walshb

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

And a whole lot more that didn’t. Every sniff of the bastards should be eradicated, their grip is over.

Nonsense....

That hatred does nobody no good....

Years in the past now....both nations have an excellent relationship....don't let the faux anti British sentiment fool you. We are infatuated with them if the truth be told.

Eradicate what, exactly? It's history. It happened. You can't eradicate it. It has been and gone.....

Tear down anything that Britain had a hand in? Jaysus, wouldn't be much bloody left...

BattleCorp

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

And a whole lot more that didn’t. Every sniff of the bastards should be eradicated, their grip is over.

Actually don't start with Heuston Station, start with Boardsie's with a very British sounding name.

Zebra3

walshb wrote: »

The British did a lot of stuff here that benefited us...

Go ahead then......

BattleCorp

Zebra3 wrote: »

Go ahead then......

Heuston Station.
The Railways.
The Customs House.
Most of Government Buildings.
Taught us English.
Leaving.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Nonsense....

That hatred does nobody no good....

Years in the past now....both nations have an excellent relationship....don't let the faux anti British sentiment fool you. We are infatuated with them if the truth be told.

Eradicate what, exactly? It's history. It happened. You can't eradicate it. It has been and gone.....

Tear down anything that Britain had a hand in? Jaysus, wouldn't be much bloody left...

Mate,they are still hanging onto.part of our country



They have made a complete balls of everywhere they have gone,look at iraq,libya for 21st century examples.....they took over india in 1700s,when it was one of richest countries in world,by time they left in 1947,life expectancy was 27......as.they've run out of countries to rob,their country has crumbled and fallen into horrendous levels of social disorder,

walshb

BattleCorp wrote: »

Heuston Station.
The Railways.
The Customs House.
Most of Government Buildings.
Taught us English.
Leaving.

The language is the biggest of all.

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

Mate,they are still hanging onto.part of our country



They have made a complete balls of everywhere they have gone,look at iraq,libya for 21st century examples.....they took over india in 1700s,when it was one of richest countries in world,by time they left in 1947,life expectancy was 27......as.they've run of countries to rob,their country has crumbled and fallen into horrendous levels of social disorder,

I know the North is still under their rule..

Really, do people down South care? As in really care? Or is most of it pretending g to give a hoot about it?

Me: I kind of used to care. Now? Not really. The world is now just all about people and diversity. We are all so much more connected, that countries lose that special unique identity and feeling. I feel Irish. But not as strongly as I used to..

joe40

walshb wrote: »

I know the North is still under their rule..

Really, do people down South care? As in really care? Or is most of it pretending g to give a hoot about it?

Me: I kind of used to care. Now? Not really. The world is now just all about people and diversity. We are all so much more connected, that countries lose that special unique identity and feeling. I feel Irish. But not as strongly as I used to..

I'm not sure the nationists in the North actually care that much either.
Especially pre Brexit the GFA agreement meant the border was invisible. People were able to identify as Irish; Gaelscoils, GAA, Irish language etc so there was no real agitation for United Ireland.
Freedom is all well and good but the they hear about having to pay 60 euro for GP visit.

I live in Donegal but work in the north and have seen this mindset quite a bit. Ultimately there is comfort in the status quo. The unknown is scary.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

I know the North is still under their rule..

Really, do people down South care? As in really care? Or is most of it pretending g to give a hoot about it?

Me: I kind of used to care. Now? Not really. The world is now just all about people and diversity. We are all so much more connected, that countries lose that special unique identity and feeling. I feel Irish. But not as strongly as I used to..

I care anyway.....i see bridges named in local town,who fcuked people out on road during famine

See likes of lismore castle being held up to esteem and used by british royalty for holidsys and gaurds clamp down whole countryside to appease these cuńts, they come over here hunting and wreak all around them.....they dont think of is as equal,despite 100 years free of them.and making a success of our country

These.people offer zero.to.the world,why we want remberence for those who.caused famine here and still persue near identical econmic policies is beyond me,they will never ever change or become normal

landofthetree

riffmongous wrote: »

Was Britain defeating Napoleon good for Ireland? Would we have had the Famine under French rule I wonder

The French were absolutely barbaric when it came to colonial rule.

Between 500,000 and 1,000,000 Algerians, out of a total of 3 million, were killed within the first three decades of the conquest as a result of war, massacres, disease and famine. French losses from 1830–51 were 3,336 killed in action and 92,329 dead in the hospital.


Woman and children were mass raped.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2001/nov/23/jonhenley
P
Also in 60s they murdered Algerians in Paris and the police wouldn't even release the death to their relatives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961