The National Party

Peregrinus

Obviously the circumstances of all these countries are different. But Ireland is, strikingly, at the democratic end of the spectrum and I think that's in tension there with a simplistic narrative that says Ireland:priest-ridden and priests:fascist.

(Not sure that it's entirely fair to present the Lateran Treaty as evidence of Catholic support for fascism. Italy had had a fascist government for seven years before the Lateran Treaty was concluded, and the church had obvious motives for wanting a treaty that had nothing to do with who was in government in Italy. If they were going to make a treaty with Italy, there was only one government they could make it with; the one that was in office. There's really no reason to think they only made the treaty because it was a fascist government, or that their motive for making the treaty was to advance the cause of fascism.)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131610#Comment_122131610

The Catholic Church used any means necessary to propagate their influence and power, as they do today — irrespective of whether the leaders were fascist or not. It became what was expedient to their interests at the time. The far-right today aren't devout Christians per se, but what they appear to be doing is projecting the need to preserve the Judeo-Christian heritage against competing ideologies. It's effectively a form of identity politics.

The problem with the far-right is that, like all ideologies, some of what they say is actually true — but any elements with a semblance of truth are lost among the extreme racial agenda that ultimately and wholly discredits them.

And that's the core of the problem here.

When reasonable people talk about controlling migration, they are instead lumped into the far-right because the far-right also talks about migration. But this is a disingenuous approach because both groups are raising concerns for different reasons: the far-right on racial grounds, reasonable people on pragmatic, economic grounds.

Similarly, the far-right talks about the need to preserve Judeo-Christian heritage against competing ideologies. So when any reasonable person who isn't far-right talks about ensuring that we don't mass migrate people from countries whose values do not align with our liberal values, that person gets lumped into the far-right — again, disingenuously.

That tactic is used to shut down debate and to smear reasonable opinions by reasonable people.

The far-right doesn't own the debate on migration or any other issue. They have their own limited, extreme interpretations. They have almost no support in wider society.

Everyone else is free to have more reasonable interpretations on what are legitimate social and economic questions.

Beechwoodspark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131052#Comment_122131052

No - I am simply an undecided voter looking at various options -

I very much get the sense though that plenty of posters on this would like to limit the options down to the mainstream parties and that’s it, and that the public should be “told off” and insulted for even considering options.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131544#Comment_122131544

This thread is about the NP so calling the NP fascists highly appropriate. Using this thread about the Fascist NP to imply that the term is devalued is wrong.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131753#Comment_122131753

The National Party are indeed far-right.

But that has nothing to do with the points I made.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131689#Comment_122131689

Thing is, people have made their judgement on you based on what you've posted... You've literally tried to spread a kidnapping hoax. And labeled violent thugs as decent well meaning people.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131689#Comment_122131689

No,

Most people would like to "limit the options" to candidates that aren't Racist, Xenophobic hate mongers.

Ideally they'd also not be convicted criminals.

The fact that you claim to be undecided on whether you will vote for Racist Xenophobes or not is something for you to reflect on.

It's your decision , but at least own that decision when you finally make it.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131610#Comment_122131610

I didn't say that priests are fascist. In the Spanish example I cited, most of them lived no better than peasants while bishops and cardinals lived in luxury. I think it's fair to point out that an authoritarian ideology like fascism fits quite neatly with religion in some circumstances.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131689#Comment_122131689

Who said anything about limiting of options?

Any thoughts on the very selective basis of Pepper's videos, and his lack of interest in attacks carried out by far right goons?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131544#Comment_122131544

To a certain extent, I'd agree with you - while it seems far right (of center) it stops short of out-and-out fascist. But when I false propaganda being spread about large groups of "undesierables" I can't help but draw parallels to the Nazis early days and how they used the same tactics to turn people against the Jews.

As Goebbels himself said, "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie."

The only reason it's not getting traction is, as you say, there's not enough people maintining the lie (it's not the State) and they can;t shield people from the consequences of it.

It's also some of the other policies of the parties what start alarm bells though, like banning abortion and leaving the EU.

Shoog

The reality of the RCC is that given a choice they will always jump right of centre and they don't seem to care how far right that is. They have been in constant conflict with any branch of the church which adopts a socialist agenda and practically disowned many of their south American socialist priest throughout the 70 and 80s.

At the moment the USA Catholic church is lurching to the hard right of politics.

I cannot think of a single instance where the RCC has adopted Christ's socialist principles.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132095#Comment_122132095

People need to understand, however, that that oft repeated Goebbels quote - it has never been proven that he said the version above - was actually from an article admonishing England and not something that he, himself, was in favour of despite the Nazi's own use of spoof to keep the population cowed.

The full article quote from 1941 is "The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.’

PopePalpatine

Who could've thought fascism and projection have been bedfellows for so long.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132064#Comment_122132064

Oh, sure. Which is why fascists, royalists, etc, often employ religious languaqe or ideas in the service of their cause.

But this possibly tells you more about fascism, royalism, etc than it does about religion. After all, liberal movements, democratic movements, national liberation movements (including our own) have also employed religious language or ideas. And of course its not at all uncommon for opposing sides in a conflict both to justify their cause with appeals to religion.

I'm not sure that this points to anything more than the considerable appeal of religious ideas, to be honest. People with a cause to advance appeal to religion mainly because such an appeal often works.

Beechwoodspark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122131811#Comment_122131811

Those ladies that Gav Pepper interviewed seemed very believable. I don’t think it was a hoax, the perpetrator got arrested etc. I don’t condone the mob violence meted out to him prior to arrest. They should have detained him until AGS showed up.

Also, I will say that the like of P Dwyer does seem to have his heart in the right place. I don’t condone his past conviction or the drunken rant he was filmed doing.

BUT - He is concerned over Ireland’s future, as are so many of us now in society.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132635#Comment_122132635

Getting arrested doesn't translate to an attempted kidnapping.… It was a hoax. Conveniently ignoring Dwyer harassing members of the public on a frequent basis btw including creche staff.

Quin_Dub

The ladies that were "interviewed" by Gavin Pepper have not spoken to the Gardai nor has any one else in terms of providing a single piece of evidence that the individual was doing anything more than simply being "drunk & disorderly" whilst foreign.

His detention by the Gardai was for "public order offences" which is the umbrella law used for Drunk & disorderly conduct etc.

So yes , it was almost certainly a hoax , just as all the other "attempted child kidnappings" being promoted online by various right-wing mouthpieces are almost certainly hoaxes as well.

If any of these "incidents" carried a shred of truth about them surely someone , not least the parents/guardians of the children that allegedly were subject to kidnap attempts would have spoken to the Gardai about it , giving details and descriptions etc.??

But - So far not a single person has done so.

If these claims had any grounding in fact or reality , why wouldn't they give a statement?????

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132635#Comment_122132635

Bollox. What'd be convincing would be if they reported the alleged crime to the Gardaí instead of the Waddle-SS.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132635#Comment_122132635

Why do you think that Pepper hasn't done any videos about the two incidents of female politicians being threatened?

Beechwoodspark

for example - for the open minded undecided voters on here - look at how Philip Dwyer conducted himself when interviewing Joe Dooecy - it’s a recent video on Twitter - Philip comes across as measured, informed, diplomatic, not the “wild man of the far right” that some on here want to portray him as.

I know all the usual posters will be on now to bury him (and me for having the temerity to post) with insults and slurs.

ancapailldorcha

Another video we're supposed to find for you. Pass.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132896#Comment_122132896

"Scumbag manages to behave himself for a few minutes" isn't that much of a flex to be honest.

Joe Doocey - Another absolute peach of a man with convictions for assaulting gardai amongst others.

Seriously..your ability to credulously post this absolute horsesh!t would be impressive if it wasn't disturbing.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132148#Comment_122132148

Any religion adopting socialist ideals is a bit of a odd position. Socialism isn't exactly renowned for allowing freedom of religious expression.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132896#Comment_122132896

He was interviewing someone who he agrees with what are you expecting?....

Dwyer isn't a wild man imo he is a plonker and an opportunist who has seen the opportunity to make some easy money. The fact he was kicked out of the national party says a lot.

Also Joe Doocey for anyone who hasn't heard of him.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2017/12/07/mayo-man-convicted-of-assaulting-garda-sergeant-tells-court-he-was-set-up-and-framed/

Beechwoodspark

Thanks - we can add plonker to the ever growing list of insults and slurs.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132598#Comment_122132598

I would disagree. Liberals (in the European sense of the word) tend to favour separating Church and State, not having them collaborate. I'm sure you can find examples, particularly in what was once such a religious country as Ireland but religious imagery is usually favoured more by autocrats and monarchists than by democrats and liberals.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132995#Comment_122132995

This is fooling absolutely nobody. Just own the nonsense you're peddling.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133026#Comment_122133026

Conveniently ignoring that you are now promoting a guy who assaulted a garda. Perpetual being offended doesn't improve your credibility.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122133026#Comment_122133026

Please do.

Any response to the actual contents of my post? The old, "oh I don't know much about these people but they seem great" act is laughable for someone imploring people to do their own research you seem to do very little yourself, regurgitating the stuff Dwyer and Pepper post without any critical thinking or analysis whatsoever.

Why would he go ranting when interviewing someone who agrees with him? Another fella who seems an absolute gem.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2017/12/07/mayo-man-convicted-of-assaulting-garda-sergeant-tells-court-he-was-set-up-and-framed/

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132995#Comment_122132995

And again we must ask how long is this "observing and considering" going to take?

Exactly how much more information is required for you to fully understand what these people stand for and how they really are??

Billy Mays

People still biting to yer man's nonsense 🤦‍♂️