The National Party

L1011

GT89 wrote: »

I'm not saying the National Party will be the party to fill that void I do think some of their views are extreme like their support for the death penalty and perhaps some of their views on abortion. I think if they toned it down to have more of a focus on immigration and possibly other things like taxation they could do better.

The National Party grew out of Justin Barrett's anti-abortion campaigning - probably long enough ago that you weren't born. They are NEVER going to "tone down" their views on that. Everything else would go first.

Also, there was a far-right party here in the 1940s. Further Irish history you're not aware of as you claimed there was never any previous. Their peak 0.5% is about the maximum NP are going to get.

Black Hawk Down

I think the anti-abortion and ultra conservative religious stance is going to be a complete non-runner over the next few decades for any party hoping to gain mainstream support.

If you had a party that took a strong stance on something like mass immigration, but dropped the whole anti-abortion anti-gay marriage stuff etc, I think they could actually do very well in this country. There is a huge groundswell of support out there for a more moderate type of nationalism.

There is definitely a wave coming against the looniness of left wing policies, as many people can see the complete lack of common sense in many aspects of their world view. People are getting sick and tired of being labelled a racist, just for having very reasonable concerns about something like uncontrolled mass immigration into the country.

There is only so long you can throw around these rather lazy generalisations, before you get a significant revolt at the ballot box. You've got to recognise and react to the genuine concerns of the average person in society, or you will pay the price by getting dumped out of office.

VillageIdiot71

Wibbs wrote: »

<...>However that is not to say that there isn't potential support for a right leaning crowd that aren't a silly joke. Hell the guy who went from "who's he" in the last presidential election to coming second on polling day on the back of one comment on Travellers says much. Mostly that there exists a sizeable enough proportion of the Irish electorate that a) agreed with him and b) don't feel they're being listened to.

I think you can see evidence of that disconnect in the sudden success of unknown SF candidates the last time (including the one who took her holibops in the middle of the election campaign, and the one who came second last the Clare Council elections last year.) It's also illustrated in the large number of independent deputies.

What's seems lacking is a coherent platform that they can all commit to. So, say, the Healy-Raes and Mattie McGrath can all agree that rural Ireland is neglected. What they can't do is commit to any common purpose that takes them beyond the county boundary.

Formulating an appeal to Irish national ideals isn't easy, and the National Party sort of illustrates that IMHO. The State was founded with the vision, reflected in the Constitution, that we were going to be a great rural, Catholic and Irish-speaking nation that was one day going to rule the whole island. That vision collapsed in the 1950s. But that's, sort of, what you have to work with if you want to appeal to nationalism.

Politics needs to have a coherent social basis, something that makes folk in Kerry and Tipperary feel that they are excluded in the same way and should therefore commit to the same political movement. Evidently, they don't.

Kivaro

Black Hawk Down wrote: »

I think the anti-abortion and ultra conservative religious stance is going to be a complete non-runner over the next few decades for any party hoping to gain mainstream support.

If you had a party that took a strong stance on something like mass immigration, but dropped the whole anti-abortion anti-gay marriage stuff etc, I think they could actually do very well in this country. There is a huge groundswell of support out there for a more moderate type of nationalism.

There is definitely a wave coming against the looniness of left wing policies, as many people can see the complete lack of common sense in many aspects of their world view. People are getting sick and tired of being labelled a racist, just for having very reasonable concerns about something like uncontrolled mass immigration into the country.

There is only so long you can throw around these rather lazy generalisations, before you get a significant revolt at the ballot box. You've got to recognise and react to the genuine concerns of the average person in society, or you will pay the price by getting dumped out of office.

I believe that there is a substantial voting block in Ireland who would support these views. Take the ultra-conservative and religious stances out of the equation, and then there will be a party to vote for .... who would represent the silent majority. I do not trust Fine Gael or Fianna Fail. All we seem to hear from Fianna Fail is social housing, and that was before and after the last election. Those who are in that voting block are already well represented with all the left-leaning political parties in the country. Fine Gael is a party for the "connected" and many have lost faith in them and their credibility is completely shattered after Leo's antics recently.

The other newer parties have too much of a focus on religion or other extreme conservative viewpoints, and will never break out from a small voter base. So we need a political party for the majority of people in Ireland who have been ignored for far too long; there is an obvious void to be filled by those who dare to break free from traditional Irish politics.

L1011

The problem there is you're describing the PDs, who lasted barely 20 years before disintegrating.

eviltwin

Kivaro wrote: »

I believe that there is a substantial voting block in Ireland who would support these views. Take the ultra-conservative and religious stances out of the equation, and then there will be a party to vote for .... who would represent the silent majority. I do not trust Fine Gael or Fianna Fail. All we seem to hear from Fianna Fail is social housing, and that was before and after the last election. Those who are in that voting block are already well represented with all the left-leaning political parties in the country. Fine Gael is a party for the "connected" and many have lost faith in them and their credibility is completely shattered after Leo's antics recently.

The other newer parties have too much of a focus on religion or other extreme conservative viewpoints, and will never break out from a small voter base. So we need a political party for the majority of people in Ireland who have been ignored for far too long; there is an obvious void to be filled by those who dare to break free from traditional Irish politics.

Where was this silent majority during our two recent referendums?

The Nal

Kivaro wrote: »

I believe that there is a substantial voting block in Ireland who would support these views. T

Renua were launched to huge fanfare and exposure. Were on the Late Late the day they launched. No one voted for them. 0 candidates elected from a possible 37 across 2 general elections.

osarusan

L1011 wrote: »

The problem there is you're describing the PDs, who lasted barely 20 years before disintegrating.

This is it, the way they formed gave them a great platform right from the off, but they couldn't sustain it.


In more recent times, Renua never got off the ground.


It's easier for a left-wing party to start up in say, the middle of a recession, because they can shout about taxing the rich and giving to the poor, but the conditions that give a right-wing party that initial bounce they need are different.


As I said earlier in the thread, you would think that there must be space for a middle-of-the-road conservative party with typical conservative policies on tax, immigration, crime, welfare reform and the like, but the very fact that such a party doesn't exist makes you wonder if the appetite really is there.

Bannasidhe

Wibbs wrote: »

To be fair the first lot you can just label Vikings/Normans, then English and Scots(which were still mostly Normans until the plantations) and it didn't exactly go well for the locals. However modern multiculturalism is a very different and more recent(20 years in Ireland) thing and hasn't gone too well in every European nation it's been tried in. Not least for many of the immigrant populations, where some demographics cluster around the bottom end of the socioeconomic scale and do so generationally and we've already seen signs of this in this country after only two decades.

.

The claim I was responding to was "Ireland has historically been a homegenous society".

This is patiently not true.

No matter how you wish to try and claim the culture of 9th century Norse were the same as 11th century Normans, and Highland Scots were just like the English and the 'Old English' were exactly like the Tudor English is not true. Different cultures came into Ireland over a 600 year period and each left their mark.
Homogeneous it was not.

As for all the blah blah about multiculturalism and the last 20 years I made no reference to that at all.

I limited my comment to addressing a historical inaccuracy.

suicide_circus

Hazel "Ireland's so racist they made me lord mayor of Dublin" Chu getting good mileage out of that gobsh1te's tweet on Newstalk there.

RWCNT

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Correcting people's spelling is considered rude around here but not as rude as making claims with zero evidence such as "And people like you are partially responsible for this due to your support of large scale immigration"


Find one post where I ever stated I support "large scale immigration" or withdraw your accusation.

The "people like you" line is getting trotted out around these parts fairly regularly these days. Dare to inject a bit of nuance to the conversation or correct a fallacy and some posters seem confident to categorise you as a stereotype holding a uniform set of beliefs they can have a go at. Symptom of spending far too much time on the internet, I reckon.

circadian

suicide_circus wrote: »

Hazel "Ireland's so racist they made me lord mayor of Dublin" Chu getting good mileage out of that gobsh1te's tweet on Newstalk there.

Did Hazel Chu actually say anything along the liness of "Ireland's so racist"?

suicide_circus

circadian wrote: »

Did Hazel Chu actually say anything along the liness of "Ireland's so racist"?

It's the only topic i've ever heard her talk about

RWCNT

circadian wrote: »

Did Hazel Chu actually say anything along the liness of "Ireland's so racist"?

She's spoke about experiences of racism she's had growing up. As always whenever someone does this, for some strange reason, some people take it oddly to heart. As though the acknowledgement that Ireland has racism and that it's a problem, like basically every country does to varying degrees, is portraying us as Nazi Germany or something.

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's the only topic i've ever heard her talk about

Maybe your ears just perk up a bit at the mention of that topic for some reason? I had a scan of her twitter there and she seems to talk about as broad a range of topics as any other politician. She's hardly Ebun Joseph.

suicide_circus

Fair enough. i googled her name + racism and there are lot of articles. I accept all societies have racism including Ireland but I'll call it out when i see it being milked.

Hotblack Desiato

Wibbs wrote: »

*look at the current clusterfook of American politics. The media and poll pundits had Biden romping home, but it's a very close run thing

There are any number of conservative media in the US - Fox, talk radio, newspapers - who support Trump all the way, so that's BS.

Polls are becoming increasingly worthless however as the assumptions upon which they are based become less and less viable. E.g. they are often conducted over landline calls, when more and more of the population doesn't have one, and in the US it's common enough to have a device which rejects auto-dialler calls.

Wibbs wrote: »

Hell the guy who went from "who's he" in the last presidential election to coming second on polling day on the back of one comment on Travellers says much.

Not exactly "who's he" as had had a RTE series and a previous controversy to build his profile.

Also many people regarded it as a pointless election and an opportunity for a protest vote. In fairness it was a pointless election, Michael D romped home on the first count and there wouldn't have been an election at all had it not been for SF's vanity.

suicide_circus

There's a certain masochistic instinct in humans to crave being chastised for how wicked we are. The church exploited it for centuries. Name a time and place which is less racist than the West today. I'll save you time, there is none. But there is no political capital to be made by pointing this out.

Hotblack Desiato

suicide_circus wrote: »

There's a certain masochistic instinct in humans to crave being chastised for how wicked we are. The church exploited it for centuries. Name a time and place which is less racist than the West today. I'll save you time, there is none. But there is no political capital to be made by pointing this out.

So you think people who have been racially abused since childhood, and still are, should STFU about it because as a white person you think Ireland is grand. :rolleyes:

The_Brood

The National Party believes that the territory of Ireland consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas. 100% agreed. The fact that this cause has been forgotten by many is a disgrace.

The National Party believes strongly in the principle of a Constitutional Republic, founded on individual personal freedoms, rights and responsibilities. We reject and resist a totalitarianism whose essence is found in the totality of State power and the exercise of State authority, and not the ideological direction of that totality. 100% agreed, though I don't see where Ireland has suffered from totalitarianism.

The National Party believes that the State is the crucible and natural patrimony of the Nation. The State ought not, therefore, be the master of the Nation, but the Nation the master of the State. It follows that the State should act at all times and in every instance, in the interests of the Nation, embodied in one indivisible Irish people. 100% agreed.

The National Party recognises the centripetal tendency of the bureaucratic State and its inevitable deleterious consequences in the quality and quantity of State level decision making. We therefore believe that a firm commitment to the principle and application of subsidiarity must be a central tenet of Government at every level. 100% agreed, if what this means is cutting down on bureaucracy.

The National Party approaches our membership of the European Union from the principle of refusing to accept the threatened destruction of our Nation’s freedom, and will endeavour to restore those freedoms which have already, unjustly, been given away. Strongly disagree. The EU has given much, much more to Ireland than vice versa. Many things about the EU need to be improved, but Ireland's freedoms are not at all threatened by the EU.

The National Party believes in an aristocracy of achievement within a democracy of opportunity, practised and established economically by the strong advocacy of Free Productive Enterprise. Consequently we endorse the inalienable right to the ownership of Private Property, and shall defend that right against the equally dangerous encroachment of both State Socialism and Monopoly Capitalism. Agreed that both socialism and capitalism are a complete failure, but property rights often result in landlords abusing tenants without consequence. So that needs to be addressed.

The National Party opposes unrestricted immigration, placing above all the preservation of national identity and culture as the bedrock of a principled patriotism. Immigration is a complex subject. Yes national identity and culture need to be the bedrock, but immigrants can fully contribute to that if they are willing.

The National Party insists that no law should permit the provision of Abortion in Ireland. Abortion is a very complex matter that needs case by case consideration, making national laws in favor of either side is absurd.

The National Party demands a complete reform of our criminal justice system, placing the protection of society from criminality as its imperative value, up to and including restoration of the Death Penalty for particularly heinous crimes. 90% agreed. Right now victims have almost no rights in Ireland, the law always sides with the criminals. Especially if they are youths. The Justice system is a complete and utter failure that needs to be reformed from the ground up.....but not including the Death Penalty.


So turns out I agree with more things than not with this National Party, which is the first I am hearing from them.

suicide_circus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So you think people who have been racially abused since childhood, and still are, should STFU about it because as a white person you think Ireland is grand. :rolleyes:

Did you just assume my ethnicity?

Hotblack Desiato

The Nal wrote: »

Renua were launched to huge fanfare and exposure. Were on the Late Late the day they launched. No one voted for them. 0 candidates elected from a possible 37 across 2 general elections.

The other interesting thing is that the mere fact they were founded by TDs who left FG over abortion* attracted all sorts of crazies, even though they said that the party would have a neutral stance on abortion. They attracted as activists and supporters the extreme catholic right, racists, and the most extreme pro-lifers - the Venn diagram of these in Ireland is practically a circle, and most of them are related to each other...

They had a high profile, lots of media coverage, well known sitting TDs, and plenty of funding and they still failed dismally.



* literally a bill in 2013 to do the bare minimum in law to stop pregnant women dying. That was too much for them. It all seems very, very silly indeed now.

The Nal

The_Brood wrote: »

So turns out I agree with more things than not with this National Party, which is the first I am hearing from them.

Thats how they try to reel people in. Generic vaguely worded moderate messaging. Then you're gradually exposed to their racist views. Justin Barrett is on video outside Google saying that if he was in power he would make people like Hazel Chew, Irish born of foreign descent, non Irish citizens.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The other interesting thing is that the mere fact they were founded by TDs who left FG over abortion* attracted all sorts of crazies, even though they said that the party would have a neutral stance on abortion. They attracted as activists and supporters the extreme catholic right, racists, and the most extreme pro-lifers - the Venn diagram of these in Ireland is practically a circle, and most of them are related to each other...

They had a high profile, lots of media coverage, well known sitting TDs, and plenty of funding and they still failed dismally.



* literally a bill in 2013 to do the bare minimum in law to stop pregnant women dying. That was too much for them. It all seems very, very silly indeed now.

I think the main problem they had was Eddie Hobbs. No one is voting for that guy. We are done with him as a country.

VillageIdiot71

DelaneyIn wrote: »

It’s already happened.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30072830.html

People were seriously injured in that attack, and I'm not minimising their injury.

But the actual case is less to do with anyone's grand plan to take over the world, and more to do with simple incoherence around discussions over migration. Google the name, and you get some references that just defy any grand narrative.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Irish+people+are+so+hostile+to+us..they%27re+attacking+us+all+the+time%3B...-a061850581

Despairing Nigerian immigrant Jacob Odubajo said yesterday: "I don't know why people in Ireland are becoming so unfriendly.

"I was told the Irish were very nice, and they were at first.

"But now they are becoming hostile towards us and we are getting attacked in the street all the time."

Jacob, 33, was beaten up by three men while walking on Summerhill.

He said his friend was attacked a week ago on Parnell Street and had his teeth broken. Many of his friends have experienced similar racially-motivated violence on the streets of Dublin.

He said: "I have lived in Germany, Russia, Sweden and Britain and I have feared for my life. It is becoming very serious here.

"I worry that somebody is going to seriously injured or even killed."

He claimed there has been a large number of violent attacks recently and women and children are being verbally abused in the street.

That's in 2000 and, yes, there's obvious nonsense in the article (including how an asylum seeker came to be living in three different EU States). But a year later and he's driving a car at people in Henry Street, reportedly after receiving a letter rejecting his claim to be a refugee.

And then, a few years later on a website for 'missing people'

https://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5991539&postcount=23

Jacob Odubajo Missing Person

Category: Family & Friends
Seeking: Jacob Odubajo
Location: North East : No Town Information
Message: Hello, I am writing from Germany does anybody know a guy called Jacob Odubajo. He is 41 years now and a nigerian. All what I know through the Internet is that he lived in Clonliffe road, Drumcondra.He causes a bad accident in October 2001 and they send him to prison in October 2002 for five years. He is married and has one kid.He always was my best friend and I miss him a lot. So please helped me! Thank you, Anja
Posted By: Anja Paepke on Thursday 2 August 2007

And if you're looking for sense in any of that, I don't think you'll find it.

Literally senseless.

VillageIdiot71

Kivaro wrote: »

So we need a political party for the majority of people in Ireland who have been ignored for far too long; there is an obvious void to be filled by those who dare to break free from traditional Irish politics.

Grand, but who are these people and what's the strong message that would bind them together? What's their actual common interest? How do they get their income?

If you want to limit migration, you'll have an immediate problem with EU Membership. So how do you resolve that?

To an extent, that goes a way to express the seeming inertia in traditional politics. Mainstream politics represents mainstream Ireland. Mainstream Ireland makes a living from FDI, and FDI needs EU Membership and free movement is part of the package.

If Rural Ireland yearns for something else, they can't really say so coherently as agriculture in particular and tourism, to an extent, both depend on EU Membership. So they've really nothing to say, and notably can't even vocalise a strategy to cope with Brexit taking away much of their business.

I just don't see where the basis for a coherent movement comes from, or what appeal it would be making.

L1011

suicide_circus wrote: »

Fair enough. i googled her name + racism and there are lot of articles. I accept all societies have racism including Ireland but I'll call it out when i see it being milked.

That rather suggests to me that you've never actually heard her talk about anything; if you're relying on that utterly useless metric to decide whether someone has been talking about something.

suicide_circus

It was a perception, i could well be wrong, dont worry about it.

Wibbs

RWCNT wrote: »

The "people like you" line is getting trotted out around these parts fairly regularly these days. Dare to inject a bit of nuance to the conversation or correct a fallacy and some posters seem confident to categorise you as a stereotype holding a uniform set of beliefs they can have a go at. Symptom of spending far too much time on the internet, I reckon.

True and to be fair that's hardly going in one direction. The "people like you" stuff is also responsible for some posters automatically calling others "alt right/racists/fascists". And that's a major problem of late and both "sides" seem happy to point out splinters, while hilariously oblivious to the beam in their own eyes.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There are any number of conservative media in the US - Fox, talk radio, newspapers - who support Trump all the way, so that's BS.

Indeed and a better example of increasing division, simplistic answers and echo chambers would be hard to find. And that seems to be getting worse not better. In the online world you mention that has changed the nature of discourse itself, from more open forum styles to by invite or down/upvote local we all pretty much agree here styles.

Not exactly "who's he" as had had a RTE series and a previous controversy to build his profile.

Also many people regarded it as a pointless election and an opportunity for a protest vote. In fairness it was a pointless election, Michael D romped home on the first count and there wouldn't have been an election at all had it not been for SF's vanity.

None of that takes away from the plain fact that he went from an also ran at the bottom, and a dopey one at that, to coming second in the polls on the back of that statement. Hell look around this very site when Travellers come up and you will see invective that if it were pointed at other groups would be considered way beyond the pale, often enough from those who would be on the "liberal" side of things.

And I agree with others that there is no "silent majority", but outside of the "I've always voted for FF/FG/Whatever" elections where change has come slow enough there certainly is a silent and conservative minority if referendum results are anything to go by. 30-40% against the last few ones. As far as immigration from non EU countries it's a lot higher if the 2004 referendum changing the law re birth passports is anything to go by, 70-80% against. That's enough of a base for some crowd who aren't an obvious joke like the national party to make some inroads, or existing parties veering more right of centre.

And that's a worry, or should be. Against that is the traditional general "conservatism" among the Irish electorate who tend to prefer the divil they know and a very much centrist bent and a lack of support for any more hardline politics from either direction on the political compass. Hence Renua and the like went tits up,or at least that's much of it. Thankfully. So far and fingers crossed, but to dismiss the threat of things going more hardline is IMHO foolish. Like I said not so long ago this country was extremely conservative, even "right wing" and was since the foundation of the state.

Annasopra

GT89 wrote: »

The National Party are a secular party. Justin Barrett also hates Pope Francis.

Come off it. They are white supremacists and catholic supremacists.

Wibbs

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Come off it. They are white supremacists and catholic supremacists.

If they're an example of any sort of supremacy of those of a pale hue, we're in serious trouble... and yep they're all mad for the catholic thing alright.

They seem misguided on their points....like.the EU is doomed to failure,but not for reasons they say

Similar this plan for multiculturism is doomed to failure,but not for reasons they claim either,your average irish perso cant abide a second culture here in travellers.....how can anyone think,they'll like people who want to do things differently like travellers??

(Whos to say travellers are wrong vs settled in terms of lifestyle)


They are in a position,where eventualy they'll be proved right,not by any fortright brilliant political insight,but by the ability of a stopped clock to be right twice a day




The anti-abortion/gay marraige rural vote in particular is hard to read,as so much of ireland is relatively isolated etc,so the anti-immigration thing simply deosnt feature,and an influx of people starting families** etc would underpin/secure rural communities

**this isnt happening to levels it should in theory,your average eastern european,coming on 10 to 12 years here,in position to start families etc are simply going home as finacially its not worth their while with state of housing crisis/rents,crap wages etc,half a generation of integration and they are leaving,