The National Party

Seth Brundle

marieholmfan wrote: »

It operates through POOLED sovereignty and we generally speaking have a veto ; where we don't Irish diplomats must build alliances in Brussels.

It is far better than the Hobbesian alternative of eating grass while the British army safeguards food exports.

Ireland has one enemy ENGLAND any so called nationalist who does not see that the Saxon Fiend is , was and will be our enemy is not a nationalist but a pathetic lackey.

England always has her hirelings.

England is not our enemy! :rolleyes:

osarusan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

England is not our enemy! :rolleyes:

HIRELING LACKEY

marieholmfan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

England is not our enemy! :rolleyes:

So it's normal to regard those occupying one's country as friends!

Hardly.

Let them retire to their own country and leave Ireland alone!

26+6=1

26-6=0

Seth Brundle

So you disagree with the will of the people on this island who voted overwhelmlingly in favour of the GFA which provides for the transition of NI into ROI, if the people choose?
You'd rather sit there complaining about "the enemy" :rolleyes:

marieholmfan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So you disagree with the will of the people on this island who voted overwhelmlingly in favour of the GFA which provides for the transition of NI into ROI, if the people choose?

The ULTRA national party of Ireland unambiguously rejects democracy and any suggestion of any form of popular sovereignty we DEMAND rule by the race-spirit of the Irish people as personified by Caitlin Ni Houlihan.

There a number of candidates for the role of autarch. My preference is a retired teacher from Wexford but the race-sprit will reveal the autarch in good time.

CrabRevolution

marieholmfan wrote: »

So it's normal to regard those occupying one's country as friends!

Hardly.

Let them retire to their own country and leave Ireland alone!

26+6=1

26-6=0

Shouldn't that be 32-6=0...?

Or are you saying there's a risk we'll lose another 6 counties from the republic?!

ohnonotgmail

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Shouldn't that be 32-6=0...?

Or are you saying there's a risk we'll lose another 6 counties from the republic?!

if you are looking for suggestions I would be happy to recommend which 6.

The Nal

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So you disagree with the will of the people on this island who voted overwhelmlingly in favour of the GFA which provides for the transition of NI into ROI, if the people choose?
You'd rather sit there complaining about "the enemy" :rolleyes:

Problem with the Nationalist parties is that they want to go back to a time in Ireland that never existed. Brits out, foreigners out, Catholics only, no foreign investment, no Europe, small local business, no imports, no gay marriage etc etc.

Basically a load of people on the breadline working for buttons and going to mass on Sundays. Maybe a week in the Isle of Man in July if you're lucky.

Something the country clearly has no desire for which is why these candidates were laughed out of it at the polls earlier this year.

ohnonotgmail

The Nal wrote: »

Problem with the Nationalist parties is that they want to go back to a time in Ireland that never existed. Brits out, foreigners out, Catholics only, no foreign investment, no Europe, small local business, no imports, no gay marriage etc etc.

Basically a load of people on the breadline working for buttons and going to mass on Sundays. Maybe a week in the Isle of Man in July if you're lucky.

Something the country clearly has no desire for which is why these candidates were laughed out of it at the polls earlier this year.

a week in the isle of man? only the really rich kids had foreign holidays when I was a lad.

marieholmfan

The Nal wrote: »

Problem with the Nationalist parties is that they want to go back to a time in Ireland that never existed. Brits out, foreigners out, Catholics only, no foreign investment, no Europe, small local business, no imports, no gay marriage etc etc.

Basically a load of people on the breadline working for buttons and going to mass on Sundays. Maybe a week in the Isle of Man in July if you're lucky.

Something the country clearly has no desire for which is why these candidates were laughed out of it at the polls earlier this year.

I can assure you that if the ULTRA nationalist party are returned to power there will be no mass, businesses or holidays.

We are followers of Ebola NOT A TYPO!
The national Party are wimps.

Collie D

I have no idea if you’re being sarcastic or serious

JohnNightmare

Will all this talk of knowing your rights and what the guards can and can't do regarding travel restrictions etc etc I baught a copy of the Constitution, I've heard people say several times freedom of movement is in the Constitution , I thought they said it was article 40 ( personal rights ) but I didn't see it, it's not 41 either ( family ) I've yet to read it start to finish but does anybody know where and if it's in it?

Is anybody familiar with the Constitution, can you recommend articles I really should know or is it just a general thing that you should look at every now and again.
Thanks

Hotblack Desiato

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Evidently you're the one who knows very little about the EU legislative process, even if every Irish MEP voted against the directive we would have still had to implement it.

Like I said - you don't understand the EU legislative process. Legislation does not originate in the European Parliament. The Commission brings forward proposals, these are agreed (or not) at the Council of Ministers - usually unanimously, sometimes by a qualified majority, in areas of vital national interest each country including Ireland has a veto. Only then do they go to the European Parliament.

Yes, I do think automatic weapons should be legal for museums and heavily vetted collecters.

That's mad.

As I keep saying, I think the EU should have zero say in Ireland's domestic laws.

Our gun laws have long been among the most restrictive in the EU.

Munsterlad102

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Like I said - you don't understand the EU legislative process. Legislation does not originate in the European Parliament. The Commission brings forward proposals, these are agreed (or not) at the Council of Ministers - usually unanimously, sometimes by a qualified majority, in areas of vital national interest each country including Ireland has a veto. Only then do they go to the European Parliament.


That's mad.



Our gun laws have long been among the most restrictive in the EU.

Oh I don’t know the legislative process? So are you trying to tell me that Ireland could have voted against this legislation and then prevented it from being implemented? Just like Poland and the Czech Republic did, and they still have to implement these restrictions? Perhaps you’re the one who doesn’t understand them.

Why don’t you think museums or collectors should be allowed automatic firearms? When was the last time a legally held machine gun was used in a crime in the last 50 years? I’ll wait.

Don’t go trying to educate me on the Irish firearms laws, I can guarantee you that I know more than you or anyone in this thread. Yes, Ireland has restrictive legislation but that’s a point I never made. The point I made was the the EU legislation affects law abiding gun owners in Ireland with no apparent safety benefits, and I don’t want a foreign power forcing legislation on us, which is what the EU has done, is doing and will continue to do.

ohnonotgmail

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Oh I don’t know the legislative process? So are you trying to tell me that Ireland could have voted against this legislation and then prevented it from being implemented? Just like Poland and the Czech Republic did, and they still have to implement these restrictions? Perhaps you’re the one who doesn’t understand them.

Why don’t you think museums or collectors should be allowed automatic firearms? When was the last time a legally held machine gun was used in a crime in the last 50 years? I’ll wait.

Don’t go trying to educate me on the Irish firearms laws, I can guarantee you that I know more than you or anyone in this thread. Yes, Ireland has restrictive legislation but that’s a point I never made. The point I made was the the EU legislation affects law abiding gun owners in Ireland with no apparent safety benefits, and I don’t want a foreign power forcing legislation on us, which is what the EU has done, is doing and will continue to do.

what eu legislation affects gun owners in ireland?

VillageIdiot71

JohnNightmare wrote: »

Will all this talk of knowing your rights and what the guards can and can't do regarding travel restrictions etc etc I baught a copy of the Constitution, I've heard people say several times freedom of movement is in the Constitution , I thought they said it was article 40 ( personal rights ) but I didn't see it, it's not 41 either ( family ) I've yet to read it start to finish but does anybody know where and if it's in it?

Is anybody familiar with the Constitution, can you recommend articles I really should know or is it just a general thing that you should look at every now and again.
Thanks

Freedom of movement follows from Article 40.4.

This page from the Citizen's Information website might be the kind of thing you are looking for

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/irish_constitution_1/constitution_fundamental_rights.html#

The Constitution guarantees that you have a right to liberty and freedom, except in accordance with the law (Article 40.4).

This means that, in general, you are entitled to your own personal freedom except where regulated by law. In addition, the law may provide for your detention in certain circumstances and the State may only breach your right to personal liberty in circumstances that come within that law.

If you believe that you are being detained or held unlawfully, you can make an application to the High Court. If the person or institution detaining you cannot justify your detention or prove that it is lawful, the High Court may order that you be released. This is called a habeas corpus order.

You have a right to move freely within the State. You also have a broader right to travel and to get a passport for the purpose of travelling.

Your right to a passport may be restricted or limited. For example, before granting you bail, a court may require you to hand over your passport. The State may also restrict your right to travel abroad for the purposes of national security.

Annasopra

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Oh I don’t know the legislative process? So are you trying to tell me that Ireland could have voted against this legislation and then prevented it from being implemented? Just like Poland and the Czech Republic did, and they still have to implement these restrictions? Perhaps you’re the one who doesn’t understand them.

Why don’t you think museums or collectors should be allowed automatic firearms? When was the last time a legally held machine gun was used in a crime in the last 50 years? I’ll wait.

Don’t go trying to educate me on the Irish firearms laws, I can guarantee you that I know more than you or anyone in this thread. Yes, Ireland has restrictive legislation but that’s a point I never made. The point I made was the the EU legislation affects law abiding gun owners in Ireland with no apparent safety benefits, and I don’t want a foreign power forcing legislation on us, which is what the EU has done, is doing and will continue to do.

The EU isnt a foreign power. We are part of the EU.

VillageIdiot71

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The EU isnt a foreign power. We are part of the EU.

In fairness, the point is getting lost through equivocation.

Indeed, the EU can decide many matters by majority vote. The EU has a strong culture of seeking consensus - although that includes a value of Member States being willing to compromise on their interests, so the moral obligation on Member States to contribute to achieving consensus is not a magic sparkle fairy dance.

Whether we call the EU "foreign" or just "non-domestic" isn't especially the point. The point is we have agreed to be part of a decision making process that can override all of our domestic institutions, including the Constitution.

And I'm not especially saying that's a bad thing, or a good thing, just that I notice some folk are afraid to state it plainly. Not stating it plainly is, I think, a bad thing.

Annasopra

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

In fairness, the point is getting lost through equivocation.

Indeed, the EU can decide many matters by majority vote. The EU has a strong culture of seeking consensus - although that includes a value of Member States being willing to compromise on their interests, so the moral obligation on Member States to contribute to achieving consensus is not a magic sparkle fairy dance.

Whether we call the EU "foreign" or just "non-domestic" isn't especially the point. The point is we have agreed to be part of a decision making process that can override all of our domestic institutions, including the Constitution.

And I'm not especially saying that's a bad thing, or a good thing, just that I notice some folk are afraid to state it plainly. Not stating it plainly is, I think, a bad thing.

The point really though is that we are at the table when making the decisions. It isnt "them over there" making decisions about "us" - It all of us together including Ireland making decisions together. There is a tendency amongst hardcore far right nationalists to paint the EU as an "outsider" looking in on top. It isnt. We are on the inside.

JohnNightmare

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Freedom of movement follows from Article 40.4.

This page from the Citizen's Information website might be the kind of thing you are looking for

Thanks v much for the reply,
yeah I did see that on citizens information alright but I don't see it at all in my hard copy of the Constitution January 2020 edition, I wonder is that just common knowledge and the Constitution book just states the articles,
Either way it's an interesting read , I'll try read start to finish by end of week instead of dipping in and out as I am now,
Thanks again😀

Munsterlad102

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what eu legislation affects gun owners in ireland?

S.I. No. 420/2019 - European Communities (Acquisition and Possession Of Weapons And Ammunition) (Amendment) Regulations 2019, to name but one.

goose2005

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The point really though is that we are at the table when making the decisions. It isnt "them over there" making decisions about "us" - It all of us together including Ireland making decisions together. There is a tendency amongst hardcore far right nationalists to paint the EU as an "outsider" looking in on top. It isnt. We are on the inside.

Very similar to rural TDs complaining about "them up in Dublin" making all the decisions, when of course seats are apportioned based on population and rural areas get a higher per capita rate of most payments

ohnonotgmail

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

S.I. No. 420/2019 - European Communities (Acquisition and Possession Of Weapons And Ammunition) (Amendment) Regulations 2019, to name but one.

what parts of that changed the situation for irish gun owners?

listermint

This thread is delicious.



Have ye entered the main stream yet

VinLieger

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

S.I. No. 420/2019 - European Communities (Acquisition and Possession Of Weapons And Ammunition) (Amendment) Regulations 2019, to name but one.

LOL that's the Irish legislation to implement an EU directive, you just googled this and didn't really look at it didn't you? Because in the legislation it clearly states the EU directive its enforcing.

VillageIdiot71

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The point really though is that we are at the table when making the decisions. It isnt "them over there" making decisions about "us" - It all of us together including Ireland making decisions together. There is a tendency amongst hardcore far right nationalists to paint the EU as an "outsider" looking in on top. It isnt. We are on the inside.

EU Membership brings important advantages, including advantages for individual citizens - like our right to live and work in any other Member State.

But I think we tend to underplay what goes with that. Yes, we participate in EU decision making. But, as a small country, we only have influence to the extent that we can get behind whatever direction the EU project is taking. And, more specifically, we may find this more of an issue post Brexit when issues around taxation are approached. Yes, we've a veto - but we can't actually hold up the whole of the EU if they all want to go in a direction that we don't like. It would be childishly unrealistic to think that's how it can work.

So, by making ourselves a part of EU, we are dissolving the capacity of the State to make independent decisions. And making ourselves subject to decisions of a wider community, of which we are a very small part.

VillageIdiot71

goose2005 wrote: »

Very similar to rural TDs complaining about "them up in Dublin" making all the decisions, when of course seats are apportioned based on population and rural areas get a higher per capita rate of most payments

Not quite the same.

The "up in Dublin" line is ludicrous, as you say, because most TDs represent areas outside Dublin, and even a fair number of TDs representing Dublin come from other parts of the country. So the idea that Dublin is dominating national decision making is simply nonsense. The boggers have most of the votes, so the point of the rhetoric is really just to distract from the fact that the boggers are making a hames out of it.

But decisions made in Brussels go through Council and Parliament, where (as you'd expect) overwhelmingly the representatives are not Irish.

I'm not saying that's particularly a problem. One way or another, the EU is a reality and we're better off as Members than as a sort of North Korea, surrounded on all sides by States we hate and fear. Just that it's completely different to boggers not wanting to take responsibility from their own decisions.

Hotblack Desiato

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Oh I don’t know the legislative process? So are you trying to tell me that Ireland could have voted against this legislation and then prevented it from being implemented? Just like Poland and the Czech Republic did, and they still have to implement these restrictions? Perhaps you’re the one who doesn’t understand them.

You claim to know all about it so can you link us to the EP votes and the Council decision?
Did all PL / CZ MEPs vote against, or just some?
Was the decision in Council unanimous, or by QMV?

Don’t go trying to educate me on the Irish firearms laws

I'm not, but you're making claims and not providing any details to back them up here.

We had restrictive gun laws before we even joined the EEC, we continue to have more restrictive gun laws than most countries. It's a completely ridiculous example to pick of something "the EU" is "making" us do that we otherwise wouldn't. Whether you like it or not, there is very strong public support for highly restrictive gun laws here.

Seth Brundle

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

There's a lot of legal material and procedures that I disagree with fundementally such as the EU's power to force us to make and adopt laws, such as the Treaty of Nice, S.I. No. 420/2019, Directive 2009/28/EC and Directive 2003/87/EC to name but a few.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

S.I. No. 420/2019 - European Communities (Acquisition and Possession Of Weapons And Ammunition) (Amendment) Regulations 2019
Directive 2009/28/EC is a European Union directive which mandates levels of renewable energy use within the European Union from 2009 to 2021
Directive 2003/87/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 13 October 2003 establishing a scheme for greenhouse gas emission allowance trading within the Community

Pretty lame examples to make someone dislike the EU

Out of curiosity, what was it about the renewable energy and greenhouse gas trading directives that you disliked?
Which parts of these directives had a negative impact on us?
Also, do you know what way Ireland's representatives voted on these?

Sand

Ireland is a tiny open economy with no natural resources to speak of, hugely dependent on foreign investment and historically vulnerable to British dominance even after independence. On top of that, the various child abuse and institutional scandals involving the Catholic Church have almost completely delegitimised that institution and its teachings.

In that context, the Euro skeptic and absolutist anti-abortion stance of this party are crippling. They may as well bathe in raw sewage before they head out canvassing for votes with policy aims like those.