The National Party

JohnNightmare

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Freedom of movement follows from Article 40.4.

This page from the Citizen's Information website might be the kind of thing you are looking for

I'm a bit slow 😉 yes I found it now , page 154 , thanks again, I'm happy now 😂😂😂

Munsterlad102

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what parts of that changed the situation for irish gun owners?

I’ve definitely mentioned it before in this thread, but the main effect on gun owners is that the magazine capacity for centrefire rifle is capped at 10 rounds. Also firearms converted from automatic to semi automatic that were licensed post 2017 are all suspended, ie their licenses have been revoked.

JohnnyFlash

Extremist politics always attracts extreme losers and oddballs. Deeply inadequate men for the most part.

Can't see why this party would buck that trend.

The Nal

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Extremist politics always attracts extreme losers and oddballs. Deeply inadequate men for the most part.

Can't see why this party would buck that trend.

They haven't. They're the dregs of society.

Munsterlad102

Yes and? Would you like that I link the actual directive itself or the legislation that came about because of it? Would it not be more logical to mention the law that affects us rather than the order for such legislation? The EU directives are just a minimum standard that EU member state have to implement and legislation varies from country to country.

Munsterlad102

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You claim to know all about it so can you link us to the EP votes and the Council decision?
Did all PL / CZ MEPs vote against, or just some?
Was the decision in Council unanimous, or by QMV?



I'm not, but you're making claims and not providing any details to back them up here.

We had restrictive gun laws before we even joined the EEC, we continue to have more restrictive gun laws than most countries. It's a completely ridiculous example to pick of something "the EU" is "making" us do that we otherwise wouldn't. Whether you like it or not, there is very strong public support for highly restrictive gun laws here.

I couldn't find the official record of the vote but heres the wikipedia link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Firearms_Directive#Amending_Directive_(EU)_2017/853
It turns out Luxembourg voted against it as well, which I forgot to mention but it was the Czechs who brought up the most arguments.
Ireland's gun laws pre 1972 were actually quite lax, you could licence just about anything, short of machine guns, provided you had a valid reason to own said firearm. It's pretty much the same now, just with magazine limits and strict controls on handguns. Heres the Firearms Act if you want to check anything you thing is wrong. https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/1925/act/17/revised/en/html

Annasopra

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

EU Membership brings important advantages, including advantages for individual citizens - like our right to live and work in any other Member State.

But I think we tend to underplay what goes with that. Yes, we participate in EU decision making. But, as a small country, we only have influence to the extent that we can get behind whatever direction the EU project is taking. And, more specifically, we may find this more of an issue post Brexit when issues around taxation are approached. Yes, we've a veto - but we can't actually hold up the whole of the EU if they all want to go in a direction that we don't like. It would be childishly unrealistic to think that's how it can work.

So, by making ourselves a part of EU, we are dissolving the capacity of the State to make independent decisions. And making ourselves subject to decisions of a wider community, of which we are a very small part.

Yes - thats how the EU works - we grant it some of our sovereignty to share sovereignty with others. I dont see a problem with voluntarily sharing sovereignty. When I look at the Brexit negotiations I also see huge Irish influence on those - I think there is a tendency amongst some people to create a myth that Irelands influence in the EU is miniscule. Thats not true.

VillageIdiot71

Sand wrote: »

In that context, the Euro skeptic and absolutist anti-abortion stance of this party are crippling. They may as well bathe in raw sewage before they head out canvassing for votes with policy aims like those.

The first thing any political movement needs is a convincing line on how folk are going to make living. No-one has an alternative strategy to pinning ourselves to the EU, and offering incentives to route taxable income here.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes - thats how the EU works - we grant it some of our sovereignty to share sovereignty with others. I dont see a problem with voluntarily sharing sovereignty.

That all sounds terribly consensual, but in truth it does amount to dissolving independent Statehood in significant ways. You don't share sovereignty with countries the size of Germany. You just accept you'll be following their lead.

Now, that's not necessarily a problem. All we did with independence was follow whatever the UK did, sometimes doing it a few years later. Right down to joining the EU.

When I look at the Brexit negotiations I also see huge Irish influence on those - I think there is a tendency amongst some people to create a myth that Irelands influence in the EU is miniscule. Thats not true.

Look, hopefully it will work out well for us. But, if Brexit goes bad and the UK renege on the withdrawal agreement, then the EU might be looking for us to operate a border on the island. Because we'll have to defend the Single Market, and that will be what's needed to achieve that result.

There's actually more of a mythology around Ireland having a magical ability to influence EU events. You won't find much substantive, challenging analysis around that.

To be clear, as I know folk can tend to have a black/white approach to these things, I'm not especially saying there's anything wrong with EU membership. I just yearn for a more reflective and observant discussion on these matters.

And to be doubly clear, I'm not saying the National Party are an improvement. I think the National Party mostly illustrate how a handful of people can attract excessive attention by posting stuff on Twitter and Youtube. They're surfing on top of a huge desire to be offended and horrified. ****, if there wasn't a National Party maybe people would have meaningful conversations about things.

Seth Brundle

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

if Brexit goes bad and the UK renege on the withdrawal agreement, then the EU might be looking for us to operate a border on the island. Because we'll have to defend the Single Market, and that will be what's needed to achieve that result.

If the RoI were not a member of the EU and we were on our own, we would still have to erect a border because we would be a separate trading entity and we would never have been in a situation to insist for the WA to have NI on a similar level to ourselves.

VinLieger

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

You don't share sovereignty with countries the size of Germany. You just accept you'll be following their lead.

But we aren't sharing our sovereignty with Germany, were sharing it with the EU, just like Germany share theirs with the EU. Why is it so hard for people to wrap their heads around the basic concepts of the EU?


We also do not in any way have to follow their lead the EU is built on consensus, if they want us to go along with something thats good for Germany they need to persuade everyone else that it will either A also be good for them or B give them something in return.


There are so many prime examples of this, sure look at Hungary and Poland thanks to the literal building blocks of the EU meaning 100% consensus must be achieved we have no way of punishing their totalitarian actions, its as much a benefit as it is a hindrance unfortunately.

VillageIdiot71

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If the RoI were not a member of the EU and we were on our own, we would still have to erect a border because we would be a separate trading entity and we would never have been in a situation to insist for the WA to have NI on a similar level to ourselves.

You'll understand, I'm sure, that I'm not making a case for leaving the EU.

I'm simply observing that our decision to remain in the EU comes with obligations, which may be called in.

VinLieger wrote: »

But we aren't sharing our sovereignty with Germany, were sharing it with the EU, just like Germany share theirs with the EU. Why is it so hard for people to wrap their heads around the basic concepts of the EU?

I have no idea why people find it so hard to accept that larger countries have more influence than smaller countries, despite this reality being fairly clearly illustrated by the weightings assigned in QMV.

VinLieger wrote: »

There are so many prime examples of this, sure look at Hungary and Poland thanks to the literal building blocks of the EU meaning 100% consensus must be achieved we have no way of punishing their totalitarian actions, its as much a benefit as it is a hindrance unfortunately.

I'm not sure if you are being ironic in asserting that 100% consensus must be achieved.

Just in case you are being serious, you might need to reflect on what the relevant EU institution says on this.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/

Qualified majority is the most widely used voting method in the Council.

It's used when the Council takes decisions during the ordinary legislative procedure, also known as co-decision. About 80% of all EU legislation is adopted with this procedure.

Again. I'm not especially against EU Membership. I'm just against being factually wrong about stuff, and being oblivious to reality.

Which means I'm also not a National Party supporter.

Eric Cartman

Sand wrote: »

Ireland is a tiny open economy with no natural resources to speak of, hugely dependent on foreign investment and historically vulnerable to British dominance even after independence. On top of that, the various child abuse and institutional scandals involving the Catholic Church have almost completely delegitimised that institution and its teachings.

In that context, the Euro skeptic and absolutist anti-abortion stance of this party are crippling. They may as well bathe in raw sewage before they head out canvassing for votes with policy aims like those.

Anti abortion politics is absolutely dead in Ireland, look at renua - brilliant economic policies , killed by the abortion agenda, aontu - dead in the water being ‘pro life sf’ (which is a contradiction in itself)

The NP only have one Quasi-effective strategy for vote getting, blame the EU for everything. Theyve been making small inroads in the midlands due to the EUs dislike of our peat industry but have extrapolated this out into blaming the EU for closing the offo at 10pm, that you cant burn smokey coal, the need for trailer licences and any other manor of fist shaking at laws the EU havent imposed

circadian

suicide_circus wrote: »

Fair enough. i googled her name + racism and there are lot of articles. I accept all societies have racism including Ireland but I'll call it out when i see it being milked.

You googled her name + racism and came to the conclusion that all she talks about is how racist Ireland is?

Christ almighty.

Sand

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Anti abortion politics is absolutely dead in Ireland, look at renua - brilliant economic policies , killed by the abortion agenda, aontu - dead in the water being ‘pro life sf’ (which is a contradiction in itself)

The NP only have one Quasi-effective strategy for vote getting, blame the EU for everything. Theyve been making small inroads in the midlands due to the EUs dislike of our peat industry but have extrapolated this out into blaming the EU for closing the offo at 10pm, that you cant burn smokey coal, the need for trailer licences and any other manor of fist shaking at laws the EU havent imposed

Well, for abortion, I think there is still a debate to be had around what the laws should be and what limitations, if any, should exist. What certainly is dead is the absolutist 'No abortion, ever, under any circumstances' position that this group have tied themselves to.

The anti-EU position is equally inexplicable. Ireland's sovereignty is better protected within the EU, than in a Europe without an EU. In the former, we have a role in the decisions that affect us. In the latter, we have no say whatsoever and must simply align with the decisions made in London, or Paris or Berlin. Prior to joining the EU, realpolitick concerns meant Ireland had to align itself with London economically and politically. The EU is a massive boon to small European states which can now participate in the rule making as opposed to the rule taking. How supposed nationalists cannot see the massive improvement in Ireland's position vs the UK in the last 50 years is beyond me. Even beyond that, the only hope Europeans having European concerns taken seriously by superpowers like the US or China is the EU. What is not on the table is a scenario where Ireland's sovereignty is total and complete. Either we share some sovereignty with other EU member states, or we become a vassal state as we were to the UK previously.

Arguably the policies of the EU can and should be criticized. The guiding spirit of the groups in power within the EU is neoliberalism, but this should be no surprise as the same idealogy dominates most of the memberstate governments. The EU offers a far more accessible platform to dissident groups than do national governments - UKIP for example was able to achieve political success in EU elections, but to my knowledge never won a seat in UK elections. The EU has increasingly been talking about imposing 'European values' on states like Poland and Hungary - so why cant those 'European values' be set by those who dissent from neoliberalism? Surely dissident groups should be looking at the EU as an opportunity rather than a bogeyman.

All in all, these two policy choices are so wrongheaded in the Irish context that it looks like a party that's deliberately setup to fail. The alternative - that they honestly think these are votewinners - is probably worse.

marieholmfan

If Aontu maintain themselves as a social democratic party who insist on no expansion of the first trimester for abortion choice (as opposed to fatal foetal abnormality or risk to the mother) they will be able to trundle along.

ancapailldorcha

Is there a reason that the National party or whatever their name is refuse to learn from UKIP here in the UK? Not even UKIP but the 2016 Vote Leave campaign even?

UKIP, aside from the more extremist nutters never so much as hinted at restoring Christian values or repealing abortion (which in fairness has been legal here since the sixties when Roy Jenkins legalised it). They made it about freedom, sovereignty and a general opposition to immigration and globalism.

Here in the UK, voters not a year ago roundly rejected any idea of rerunning the 2016 referendum. Why would the Nationalists in Ireland think they can get away with the same in Ireland. Electorates don't like being asked the same question again a few years later.

Give ground where it can't be held and conquer new territory where possible. There's a housing crisis and the HSE hospital beds thing for starters. That'll resonate with people a lot more than moaning about abortion will.

Hotblack Desiato

Why would they bother with any of that? They're not actually interested in doing politics. If they were, they'd be active in their communities on local issues and building a platform to get councillors elected.

bewareofthedog

Don't really get the clinging to to the anti abortion angle at all

Loafing Oaf

marieholmfan wrote: »

If Aontu maintain themselves as a social democratic party who insist on no expansion of the first trimester for abortion choice (as opposed to fatal foetal abnormality or risk to the mother) they will be able to trundle along.

If Aontu 'trundle along' it will be purely on the basis of Peadar Toibin's personal vote, on which actual policy questions have almost no impact.

VillageIdiot71

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Anti abortion politics is absolutely dead in Ireland, look at renua - brilliant economic policies , killed by the abortion agenda, aontu - dead in the water being ‘pro life sf’ (which is a contradiction in itself)

I suspect you are right that anti abortion politics is just not a current issue.

I'm more wondering at what "brilliant economic policies" Renua had.

https://www.tcd.ie/Political_Science/people/michael_gallagher/Manifestos2016/RenuaManifesto16.pdf

We believe that the Irish economy is too reliant on Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) as a source of tax revenue, employment and growth. We believe in a balanced and sustainable economic model which acknowledges the benefits of FDI while creating a healthy environment for domestic enterprise.

We believe that a combination of clear business support initiatives, competitive personal and business taxes and a vision for how and where the State buys its goods, services and works can make Ireland the most entrepreneurial
economy in the world.

Sure, we all know that we're too reliant on FDI.

But, what? If we force the Irish State to use Irish private sector middlemen when sourcing goods and services, we'll turn our mediocre domestic business class into the most entrepreneurial "in the world"? Never mind the complete ignorance of EU procurement law. It's just incoherent nonsense.

Renua's economic policy was inspired by SME owner pub talk. And, guess what, no-one was fooled. When folk talk about the SME sector being an engine for innovation, that with support can break into export markets with new products, your average Irish SME owner knows they're not talking about the Centra he runs in Sligo.

Folk vote with their pockets, first. And they discount whatever sounded good in the pub last night.

VillageIdiot71

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Here in the UK, voters not a year ago roundly rejected any idea of rerunning the 2016 referendum. Why would the Nationalists in Ireland think they can get away with the same in Ireland. Electorates don't like being asked the same question again a few years later.

I don't see any percentage in pursuing the abortion issue.

But I think you're ignoring the fact that we've had multiple referendums on abortion since the 1980s. We had two referendums on divorce.

But, really contrasting with the UK experience, we twice repeated referendums on EU Treaties; Nice and Lisbon were both rejected by the Irish electorate on the first attempt.

So, tbh, if it had happened in Ireland, you'd have found us repeating the referendum in 2017 in the hope the result would go the other way.

PopePalpatine

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

If Aontu 'trundle along' it will be purely on the basis of Peadar Toibin's personal vote, on which actual policy questions have almost no impact.

I live in his constituency, can confirm. The only policy that would've made any impact is the re-opening of the train line to Navan.

Also, judging by a couple of their leaflets from the last GE, abortion's been put on the back burner.

L1011

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Also, judging by a couple of their leaflets from the last GE, abortion's been put on the back burner.

Substantial % of the membership are in the party solely down to their stance on abortion and are likely completely at odds to the rest of the policies, though.

Hotblack Desiato

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Also, judging by a couple of their leaflets from the last GE, abortion's been put on the back burner.

Not quite, "life" is a dogwhistle.


Still though, as slogans go "Jobs for Youth - Not Condoms" can never be beaten



https://irishelectionliterature.com/2009/09/09/christian-principles-party-jobs-for-youth-not-condoms/#more-41

1991 locals, and he nearly got elected!

VillageIdiot71

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not quite, "life" is a dogwhistle.


Still though, as slogans go "Jobs for Youth - Not Condoms" can never be beaten



https://irishelectionliterature.com/2009/09/09/christian-principles-party-jobs-for-youth-not-condoms/#more-41

1991 locals, and he nearly got elected!

Now, that's kind of appeal that gets you elected.

"Jobs, not condoms". Including jobs making condoms. For Protestants, obviously.

marieholmfan

Being pro life is not a 'dogwhistle' for being anti abortion they are the same thing. Being 'pro choice' is not a dogwhistle for pro abortion again they are the same thing.

NovemberWren

what was that party that that lady of Fine Gael, left the dail, and started a new party.

wonder sometimes, - was F.G. v.miffed that she left Fine Gael.

[or, has F.G. left, people like her?].

L1011

NovemberWren wrote: »

what was that party that that lady of Fine Gael, left the dail, and started a new party.

wonder sometimes, - was F.G. v.miffed that she left Fine Gael.

[or, has F.G. left, people like her?].

Lucinda Creighton, Renua. She left FG rather than leaving the Dáil, and took two other TDs + her husband from the Seanad with her.

She failed to get re-elected. They all failed.

Renua in their entire existence have had a single Councillor elected, who promptly left. They're now reduced to a membership that would fit in a phonebox, no elected reps and a blue tick Twitter account someone rants on.

poor renua

never made it to the third trimester, if i remember the timings correctly

Hotblack Desiato

marieholmfan wrote: »

Being pro life is not a 'dogwhistle' for being anti abortion they are the same thing. Being 'pro choice' is not a dogwhistle for pro abortion again they are the same thing.

They don't even say "pro-life"(itself, of course, a euphemism) on their leaflets though, just "life" seemingly in the hope that most people will overlook it. That's absolutely a dogwhistle

Also being pro-choice does NOT equate with being pro-abortion, the vast majority of pro-choice people want fewer abortions to happen not more.