The National Party

Mike Murdock · 23-02-2021 11:32am

Niallof9 wrote: »

exactly this. i live in the inner city, and the protests during the summer had lads heading down from the inner city, some even using the same white shirt uniforms they probably had used in SF stuff.

People are asleep if they don't think this is happening.

SF will lose their core vote when they get into power and once nothing changes for the people that make up the core vote, they will look to blame SF and move on.

SF is trying to appeal to middle class voters, working class voters, welfare class, hardened Republicans, nationalists, the woke left, west brits, the middle ground, unionists, immigrants, unions, businesses...it can't be all squared. Something will have to give.

Mass immigration and the like alienates working class voters and areas as the two sides compete for resources, jobs, welfare. Its not a new story. SF in my book will 100 per cent lose the margins of society. The hardened Republicans, the true working class and the welfare class. I hate class terminology but its shorthand for social analysis or whatever you want to call it.

SF are a left wing party no doubt. But the political spectrum is a horseshoe, and at times it can look very similar. It basically boils down to simple contradictions.

I predict the party will split again at some stage. You could even get a nationalist party splinter group tie up.

Like any voter going for SF thinking that nationalism and unification (rightly or wrongly) doesn't make up their raison d'etre needs to take a hard look at themselves. But that will clash with the younger SF person who thinks its all about the social crusade. they are living in a dream world, and some day soon the Republican side of SF will wake up. Their whole being is a socialist 32 county Republic.

Most of the woke left or your Paul Murphys would actually think nationalism is a dirty word. So how does SF figure all that out? imo it can't. In fairness to SF their policy towards immigration and i suppose diversity etc is welcome. Its one of their strengths.

The national party is a bunch of cranks, but they aren't selling that nationalist dream. But at times they seem so similar, and can you blame some people for being confused and maybe angry when they think SF are moving away from it.

Its the reason i'm not a Republican myself. a twee white, socialist, catholic, 32 county republic at all costs? no thanks. and this is definitely in many peoples head when they imagine it. you see it with the United Ireland debates. people can't even countenance changing a flag to compromise etc. I'd reckon a small percentage in SF would also think that way, they just don't say it. clearly many of their supporters don't connect the dots. Doing a Paddy Holohon if you will.

SF are heading the way Labour has done in the UK. They'll alienate their old core vote and bring in a bunch of woke voters/activists who will lead the party down the path of being completely unelectable.

A split is inevitable.

The Raging Bile Duct · 23-02-2021 11:34am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Eoin o Broin is the architect of the strategy of the party this past decade

i doubt Martin McGuiness was too bothered about trans issue back in Derry or other WOKE politics

The LGBT community praised him as an advocate after his death.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/03/21/martin-mcguinness-lgbt-rights-advocate-and-sinn-fein-leader-dies/

Loafing Oaf · 23-02-2021 11:37am

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

The LGBT community praised him as an advocate after his death.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/03/21/martin-mcguinness-lgbt-rights-advocate-and-sinn-fein-leader-dies/

He also made this important intervention not long before his death

Sinn Féin abortion policy compatible with my Catholicism says Martin McGuinness

Sweet.Science · 23-02-2021 11:43am

Niallof9 wrote: »

exactly this. i live in the inner city, and the protests during the summer had lads heading down from the inner city, some even using the same white shirt uniforms they probably had used in SF stuff.

People are asleep if they don't think this is happening.

SF will lose their core vote when they get into power and once nothing changes for the people that make up the core vote, they will look to blame SF and move on.

SF is trying to appeal to middle class voters, working class voters, welfare class, hardened Republicans, nationalists, the woke left, west brits, the middle ground, unionists, immigrants, unions, businesses...it can't be all squared. Something will have to give.

Mass immigration and the like alienates working class voters and areas as the two sides compete for resources, jobs, welfare. Its not a new story. SF in my book will 100 per cent lose the margins of society. The hardened Republicans, the true working class and the welfare class. I hate class terminology but its shorthand for social analysis or whatever you want to call it.

SF are a left wing party no doubt. But the political spectrum is a horseshoe, and at times it can look very similar. It basically boils down to simple contradictions.

I predict the party will split again at some stage. You could even get a nationalist party splinter group tie up.

Like any voter going for SF thinking that nationalism and unification (rightly or wrongly) doesn't make up their raison d'etre needs to take a hard look at themselves. But that will clash with the younger SF person who thinks its all about the social crusade. they are living in a dream world, and some day soon the Republican side of SF will wake up. Their whole being is a socialist 32 county Republic.

Most of the woke left or your Paul Murphys would actually think nationalism is a dirty word. So how does SF figure all that out? imo it can't. In fairness to SF their policy towards immigration and i suppose diversity etc is welcome. Its one of their strengths.

The national party is a bunch of cranks, but they aren't selling that nationalist dream. But at times they seem so similar, and can you blame some people for being confused and maybe angry when they think SF are moving away from it.

Its the reason i'm not a Republican myself. a twee white, socialist, catholic, 32 county republic at all costs? no thanks. and this is definitely in many peoples head when they imagine it. you see it with the United Ireland debates. people can't even countenance changing a flag to compromise etc. I'd reckon a small percentage in SF would also think that way, they just don't say it. clearly many of their supporters don't connect the dots. Doing a Paddy Holohon if you will.

There will be 100% be a split in SF within the next 3 years . Any left wing / right wing political party splits after a certain period of time.

Never mind a party like SF that has so many different people they seems to be trying to represent

Eric Cartman · 23-02-2021 11:55am

Mike Murdock wrote: »

SF are heading the way Labour has done in the UK. They'll alienate their old core vote and bring in a bunch of woke voters/activists who will lead the party down the path of being completely unelectable.

A split is inevitable.

absolutely, sure we already so AONTU as the pro-life micro splinter but I think it left most of the core behind who still wanted to be on the party boat despite increasing disagreements with party direction.

If SF go more left or get elected and prioritise social left policy over a united Ireland / looking after our own, I can see a huge split where the national party, AONTU and the new ben Gilroy renua ifp amalgamation play hungry hungry hippos for those voters who feel SF weren't putting '32 county united Ireland for the Irish' first.

Loafing Oaf · 23-02-2021 12:11pm

Mike Murdock wrote: »

SF are heading the way Labour has done in the UK. They'll alienate their old core vote and bring in a bunch of woke voters/activists who will lead the party down the path of being completely unelectable.

A split is inevitable.

Bring in a bunch of woke voters/activists? Those guys have been running the show for several years now. Didn't seem to do them much harm at the last GE...

Eric Cartman · 23-02-2021 12:18pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Bring in a bunch of woke voters/activists? Those guys have been running the show for several years now. Didn't seem to do them much harm at the last GE...

Just wait for an economic downturn again, all this talk of green policies, save the animals, solar panels, pronouns, a million genders etc.. will all be loafed out and people will go back to caring about jobs and the economy.

AndrewJRenko · 23-02-2021 12:23pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Just wait for an economic downturn again, all this talk of green policies, save the animals, solar panels, pronouns, a million genders etc.. will all be loafed out and people will go back to caring about jobs and the economy.

You seem to be projecting your own values on the rest of the world.

Mad_maxx · 23-02-2021 12:28pm

Mike Murdock wrote: »

Irony being if a party like that were set up here, it would be pilloried in the media as being "Alt-Right" or "Far-Right".

the media loathed the PD,s as they promoted the free market and forced Aer Lingus etc out of the shelter

they were very pro EU and immigration so what chance a party who wants to ask hard questions of both while also advocating market forces

Eric Cartman · 23-02-2021 12:32pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You seem to be projecting your own values on the rest of the world.

it always happens, look at every spike in an interest in climate change or any social change issue, its always when the economy is in full swing, when we enter recessionary cycles nobody cares anymore

AndrewJRenko · 23-02-2021 12:35pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the media loathed the PD,s as they promoted the free market and forced Aer Lingus etc out of the shelter

they were very pro EU and immigration so what chance a party who wants to ask hard questions of both while also advocating market forces

Yes, the Irish Times loathed the PDs so much that they appointed one of their small group of TDs Geraldine Kennedy as editor and their main political correspondent Stephen Collins wrote the Breaking the Mould hagiography on the party's history.

Interesting to see the PDs website is still up and running - I wonder who's paying for the hosting?
https://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/about_us/

Loafing Oaf · 23-02-2021 12:36pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Just wait for an economic downturn again, all this talk of green policies, save the animals, solar panels, pronouns, a million genders etc.. will all be loafed out and people will go back to caring about jobs and the economy.

Can a party not cover all these bases, and shift emphasis between them as the political climate demands?

Mike Murdock · 23-02-2021 12:41pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Can a party not cover all these bases, and shift emphasis between them as the political climate demands?

Labour couldn't do it in the UK and, like SF, had an election peak one time. Then they tanked spectacularly.

Eric Cartman · 23-02-2021 12:51pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Can a party not cover all these bases, and shift emphasis between them as the political climate demands?

FG failed at it, 2011 they were elected to cut taxes, punish welfare cheats, abolish USC and be the party for 'people who get up in the morning'

they steered left and went for social issues and in 2020 they went from a resounding majority to having to do a deal with their arch enemy and the greens to keep the shinners out.

Broad church politics works to a certain level, you go too wide and your aims become too diffuse and you lose votes.

Tony EH · 23-02-2021 1:07pm

LOL.

FG were elected to punish FF and nothing more.

Everything else is just the usual fantasy targets that you always have in your head.

Mike Murdock · 23-02-2021 1:21pm

Tony EH wrote: »

LOL.

FG were elected to punish FF and nothing more.

Everything else is just the usual fantasy targets that you always have in your head.

Just like the Tories were elected to punish Labour in the UK.

John Doe1 · 23-02-2021 1:35pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You lads are funny, but you really should do some research before posting nonsense on the internets, as others have pointed out, the majority of wealth, including assets such as property and land, has become highly concentrated, largely due to western economic and political libertarian ideologies. you're quick to blame folks for this, but you're actually pointing the finger in the completely wrong direction, tis has virtually fcuk all to be doing with the welfare classes, and this is 'clearly obvious'!

Apologies for the thoughtcrime, I forgot that it will be PBP/Sinn Fein who will bring us to UtopiaðŸ˜‚

Comrade, as someone from a working class background and who worked hard to get a decent salary, I reject your assertion that those who abuse the welfare system are not a major problem.

Capitalism is not perfect but it’s the best system we have, inevitably there are winners and losers but in a society like Ireland where every opportunity is there to become a winner, capitalism works fine. Fair play to the landlords who made their money and can afford to buy multiple properties, we should all want to aim for that.

Coillte_Bhoy · 23-02-2021 1:38pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

absolutely, sure we already so AONTU as the pro-life micro splinter but I think it left most of the core behind who still wanted to be on the party boat despite increasing disagreements with party direction.

If SF go more left or get elected and prioritise social left policy over a united Ireland / looking after our own, I can see a huge split where the national party, AONTU and the new ben Gilroy renua ifp amalgamation play hungry hungry hippos for those voters who feel SF weren't putting '32 county united Ireland for the Irish' first.

What's this?

Wanderer78 · 23-02-2021 1:48pm

John Doe1 wrote: »

Apologies for the thoughtcrime, I forgot that it will be PBP/Sinn Fein who will bring us to Utopia&#55357;&#56834;

Comrade, as someone from a working class background and who worked hard to get a decent salary, I reject your assertion that those who abuse the welfare system are not a major problem.

Capitalism is not perfect but it’s the best system we have, inevitably there are winners and losers but in a society like Ireland where every opportunity is there to become a winner, capitalism works fine. Fair play to the landlords who made their money and can afford to buy multiple properties, we should all want to aim for that.

...again, you libertarian folks completely missing reality, as normal, you ll actually find, im not a socialist, communist, Marxist, etc etc, and i will completely agree with you, capitalism certainly has shown its superiority, and id have to completely agree with libertarian economist deirdre mccloskey, most, including, 'socialists' such as myself, would much rather live in a capitalist society.

libertarians actually need to wake up, and enter reality, its clearly obvious, our current form of capitalism, so called free market capitalism, which is in fact portrayed as being all fulfilling, is in fact, utopic! its clearly obvious, its not!

again, so called supporters of this dystopic utopia, are too ignorant to realise where we are, and where we probably/potentially could be going with this dystopia, theres actually a very good chance, we re slowly moving back towards serious global conflicts, the longer we pursue this form of capatalism!

AndrewJRenko · 23-02-2021 2:07pm

John Doe1 wrote: »

Capitalism is not perfect but it’s the best system we have, inevitably there are winners and losers but in a society like Ireland where every opportunity is there to become a winner, capitalism works fine.

"every opportunity to become a winner" once you overcome the systemic inequalities in access to education, childcare, health services, transport and more.

vafankillar · 23-02-2021 2:30pm

John Doe1 wrote: »

Fair play to the landlords who made their money and can afford to buy multiple properties, we should all want to aim for that.

and fair play to all the brits who bought the irish food during the famine, the mindboggles as to why irish people at the time didn't simply aim for that. gotta love the precious free market

John Doe1 · 23-02-2021 2:37pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

"every opportunity to become a winner" once you overcome the systemic inequalities in access to education, childcare, health services, transport and more.

Again, as someone from a working class background in a rural county, I along with the majority of my friends from a similar background were able to get over these apparent "Systemic Inequalities". Why was that?

It is this marxist inspired bollix that says because you come from a certain background you can blame your failures on the "Systemic Ineualities" is what continues the cycle of poverty.

Loafing Oaf · 23-02-2021 2:40pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

What's this?

His usual fantasies about the coming conservative wave

Wanderer78 · 23-02-2021 2:42pm

John Doe1 wrote: »

Again, as someone from a working class background in a rural county, I along with the majority of my friends from a similar background were able to get over these apparent "Systemic Inequalities". Why was that?

It is this marxist inspired bollix that says because you come from a certain background you can blame your failures on the "Systemic Ineualities" is what continues the cycle of poverty.

oh i dont know, maybe we dont live in a world of equal opportunities and abilities, and these issues can be dramatically different when comparing the opportunities between generations!

Marxist what! where are you going with this one? i have little or no knowledge of Marxism, and little or no interest in it, i personally beleive capitalism is in fact the solution to capitalisms problems, and im not the only 'socialists' that believes this! and this where some libertarian views get really really weird, and completely disconnected from reality!

OMM 0000 · 23-02-2021 2:48pm

coinop wrote: »

The National Party revolves around 9 core principles

Most of that is reasonable. I don't agree with the death penalty bit, the zero tolerance to abortion bit (I think there should be exceptions in extreme cases), and I would need more clarity on their EU position (I don't think we should have the euro, but being part of the EU is overall good for us).

I think in general more political parties is a good thing. It helps keep things balanced. If FF/FG learn a lot of people like the National Party's policy #X, they may add it to their own policy list.

Mad_maxx · 23-02-2021 2:53pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

"every opportunity to become a winner" once you overcome the systemic inequalities in access to education, childcare, health services, transport and more.

yes but what about the country called ireland ?

randd1 · 23-02-2021 3:03pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

"every opportunity to become a winner" once you overcome the systemic inequalities in access to education, childcare, health services, transport and more.

Having grown up in a mid sized family in a council house under a single father, the idea that there are systematic inequalities that prevent people from making something of themselves is complete crap.

More often than not the inequalities stem from the poor attitude of parents, like not putting an emphasis on getting an education, or encouraging their kids to keep away from others they know to be trouble, or not getting them involved in community based programmes like sports clubs, youth clubs etc, some parents spending €100 a week on fags/booze instead of food/clothes.

Education should be a no-brainer, education is practically free until college, and even then you can get your college fees covered if you go below a threshold. There are payment schemes for low income families, most schools offer book rental schemes, uniform hand-downs and other such expense savers.

The cost of childcare can be fully covered depending on your employment status/marital status, etc.

If you can't afford healthcare, the medical card/GP visist card covers you in case you need healthcare. The cost of prescription medicine could do with being tackled alright across the board.

Most people have a car these days, or live close enough to be in walking/cycling distance of public transport. Most regular transport services offer usage rates. School bus passes are relatively cheap and in some cases can be covered if your income is low enough.

Ireland isn't America. We have huge help in this country to get yourself and your family back on your feet, and keep you there. We most definitely have our problems in this country that's for sure, but giving people continued opportunity is not one of them.

As usual most of the fault lies in the mirror but it's easier for some to not bother looking and blame everyone else for their own failures.

OMM 0000 · 23-02-2021 3:05pm

Yep, and in fact, there are a lot of advantages to being "working class" compared to middle class.

When your income reaches a certain threshold, you have to start paying for everything yourself, whereas the working class can get stuff for free.

As you say randd1, it pretty much comes down to parents.

If you can (a) get most things for free and (b) have parents encouraging you, I can't see how that is somehow worse than a middle class family who are struggling to pay for everything.

WrenBoy · 23-02-2021 3:58pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh i dont know, maybe we dont live in a world of equal opportunities and abilities, and these issues can be dramatically different when comparing the opportunities between generations!

I understand and support the strive to have equal opportunities for all, something I think Ireland has done well in aspects. What do you mean by equality of ability though? An individuals level of intelligence ? Physical attributes ? Surely theres nothing a society can do to remedy that, besides give access to education which is more equality of opportunity again ?

Wanderer78 · 23-02-2021 4:05pm

WrenBoy wrote: »

I understand and support the strive to have equal opportunities for all, something I think Ireland has done well in aspects. What do you mean by equality of ability though? An individuals level of intelligence ? Physical attributes ? Surely theres nothing a society can do to remedy that, besides give access to education which is more equality of opportunity again ?

yes, ireland certainly has done well in aspects of this critical need, but we re now experiencing a radical shift in this, this is very obvious in relation to property markets. a key fact in our current situation, '54% of 18-34 year olds are living at home', this is our now reality, and its growing, something is very very wrong in relation to property and land markets.

yes, we can indeed reduce these growing problems, opening our educational system up to more citizens, has been one of the most amazing things we have done in the past, in order to do so, but this is now starting to break down. we re now in a situation whereby many of those 54% are in fact, very well educated, but still cannot get access to property markets, highlighting how dysfunctional they have become.

The National Party

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