The National Party

randd1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes, ireland certainly has done well in aspects of this critical need, but we re now experiencing a radical shift in this, this is very obvious in relation to property markets. a key fact in our current situation, '54% of 18-34 year olds are living at home', this is our now reality, and its growing, something is very very wrong in relation to property and land markets.

yes, we can indeed reduce these growing problems, opening our educational system up to more citizens, has been one of the most amazing things we have done in the past, in order to do so, but this is now starting to break down. we re now in a situation whereby many of those 54% are in fact, very well educated, but still cannot get access to property markets, highlighting how dysfunctional they have become.

It's the cost of property more than anything educational. There's no good reason why a house that was built for €120k is being sold on a market for €300k other than greed. Granted, people should be entitled to earn a living and make money through housing, I have no argument with that.


But having a roof over your head is so vital to people, especially for the security of families, that it should really always have been heavily regulated to avoid the kind of pricing we see (and limiting the impact of the kind of collapse we saw in 2008) that keeps people out of the market.


If you've got the funds to go and buy a site and build, fair enough, that's your own business. But not everyone has that option, and when I see people paying double what a house was cost to be built, you have to ask why there wasn't something put in place to protect people from ridiculous prices. Even something like having entire housing estates for working families put out to tender by county councils to keep the cost of houses down to a minimum, rather than simply giving the developer a free run to charge whatever for houses in exchange for a few free social houses.


And not even houses. The complete lack of even basic apartments in most towns is chronic, never mind our cities. You see some of the run down buildings in Cork, Dublin and Limerick could easily be replaced with 8-10 storey apartment blocks with small 1/2 bed apartments. The living at home is more a problem with the complete lack of regulation in some parts, over-regulation in other parts, lack of vision and Nimbyism of the housing sector than anything.


They're planning solely for the profits from property, and not for people who have to fill the properties.

Wanderer78

randd1 wrote: »

It's the cost of property more than anything educational. There's no good reason why a house that was built for €120k is being sold on a market for €300k other than greed. Granted, people should be entitled to earn a living and make money through housing, I have no argument with that.


But having a roof over your head is so vital to people, especially for the security of families, that it should really always have been heavily regulated to avoid the kind of pricing we see (and limiting the impact of the kind of collapse we saw in 2008) that keeps people out of the market.


If you've got the funds to go and buy a site and build, fair enough, that's your own business. But not everyone has that option, and when I see people paying double what a house was cost to be built, you have to ask why there wasn't something put in place to protect people from ridiculous prices. Even something like having entire housing estates for working families put out to tender by county councils to keep the cost of houses down to a minimum, rather than simply giving the developer a free run to charge whatever for houses in exchange for a few free social houses.


And not even houses. The complete lack of even basic apartments in most towns is chronic, never mind our cities. You see some of the run down buildings in Cork, Dublin and Limerick could easily be replaced with 8-10 storey apartment blocks with small 1/2 bed apartments. The living at home is more a problem with the complete lack of regulation in some parts, over-regulation in other parts, lack of vision and Nimbyism of the housing sector than anything.


They're planning solely for the profits from property, and not for people who have to fill the properties.

our housing issues are a train wreck, for everyone, including property owners, the more dysfunctional it becomes, the more its actually going to cost everyone, including those that are gaining financially, as more of their taxes are going to be required to deal with it. our property issues are primarily based in whats called the dysfunctions of the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), we have given these sectors of our economies the main task of providing this critical need, and they have turned it into a sh!t show, for all!

James Brown

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Yep, and in fact, there are a lot of advantages to being "working class" compared to middle class.

When your income reaches a certain threshold, you have to start paying for everything yourself, whereas the working class can get stuff for free.

As you say randd1, it pretty much comes down to parents.

If you can (a) get most things for free and (b) have parents encouraging you, I can't see how that is somehow worse than a middle class family who are struggling to pay for everything.

We all need a certain level of food/shelter/health to survive.
When people can't afford such things the state/taxpayer steps in.
This is a brilliant thing.

You are equating the working class with low/no income households. For example tradesmen would be working class and on a very decent salary.

Why don't you become 'working class' so? Very easy to become poorer.
Give it a go see how much you prefer it, come back and tell us all?

OMM 0000

James Brown wrote: »

We all need a certain level of food/shelter/health to survive.
When people can't afford such things the state/taxpayer steps in.
This is a brilliant thing.

You are equating the working class with low/no income households. For example tradesmen would be working class and on a very decent salary.

Why don't you become 'working class' so? Very easy to become poorer.
Give it a go see how much you prefer it, come back and tell us all?

Tradesmen on very decent salaries aren't working class. Almost everyone in my extended family are tradesmen and they all live in middle class areas and have middle class lives.

This myth that tradesmen are unskilled needs to go away.

The rest of your comment is misunderstanding my point. I was saying if you have good parents, it doesn't really matter what class you are. Parenting is the key. And if you can get stuff for free, your life is even better.

I used to live in Jobstown where a huge percentage of people were unemployed. They have a free house, free money, and spend their days watching football and drinking. That's the reason their kids are messed up. It's not because they're working class but because they're crap parents. They are being given so much for free, so much in fact that their lives are very easy.

Compare that to a middle class family who are slaving away at their multinational job, trying to pay a mortgage, and barely scraping by.

The reason so many people from working class areas become skangers has nothing to do with a lack of money and everything to do with terrible parents. At least in the middle class family, the parents may be struggling, but the kids get to see a role model - someone working and trying their best.

I find it just so messed up that we do everything to help low / no income folk and expect the struggling middle class to pay for it.

And where's the gratitude? I have never heard of someone with their free house and free money being thankful to the hard working middle class folks for paying for it all.

James Brown

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Tradesmen on very decent salaries aren't working class. Almost everyone in my extended family are tradesmen and they all live in middle class areas and have middle class lives.

This myth that tradesmen are unskilled needs to go away.

The rest of your comment is misunderstanding my point. I was saying if you have good parents, it doesn't really matter what class you are. Parenting is the key. And if you can get stuff for free, your life is even better.

I used to live in Jobstown where a huge percentage of people were unemployed. They have a free house, free money, and spend their days watching football and drinking. That's the reason their kids are messed up. It's not because they're working class but because they're crap parents. They are being given so much for free, so much in fact that their lives are very easy.

Compare that to a middle class family who are slaving away at their multinational job, trying to pay a mortgage, and barely scraping by.

The reason so many people from working class areas become skangers has nothing to do with a lack of money and everything to do with terrible parents. At least in the middle class family, the parents may be struggling, but the kids get to see a role model - someone working and trying their best.

I find it just so messed up that we do everything to help low / no income folk and expect the struggling middle class to pay for it.

And where's the gratitude? I have never heard of someone with their free house and free money being thankful to the hard working middle class folks for paying for it all.

Working class is non-management and non-professional, (lawyer/doctor etc.). Open to debate I suppose.

Never said tradesmen were unskilled. Tradesmen have a trade/skill. You can't call yourself a tradesman.

Why did you live in Jobstown? Bad parents?

You are confusing chancers and fraudsters with all working class or low/no income families.
Would you imagine there are middle class people from middle class families who cheat on taxes or defraud the state in some way?
Law/rule breakers exist everywhere.

I do expect those of us better off than others to assist the others. That's what a society is all about.

Your 'thanks' is that if ever you find yourself on hard times you'll get assistance too.

You seem to be under the illusion that anyone can do well if they want to. Are you a millionaire? And if not, why not? Bad parents, lazy? Or would you say it's more complicated and external issues might be preventing such a move?

Eric Cartman

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

What's this?

they're voting on it in march, its the equivalent of jump starting a dead car with 2 other dead cars.

The Raging Bile Duct

I don't think you can call people that come from families of multi-generational unemployment and are continuing the trend 'working class', can you?

I think a lot of people that consider themselves middle class now would really be the new working class.

Eric Cartman

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I don't think you can call people that come from families of multi-generational unemployment and are continuing the trend 'working class', can you?

I think a lot of people that consider themselves middle class now would really be the new working class.

Its why I like the term welfare class. We're now getting in to the first generation of a family where a Childs parents and grandparents have never worked a day in their lives.

Mad_maxx

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Bring in a bunch of woke voters/activists? Those guys have been running the show for several years now. Didn't seem to do them much harm at the last GE...

SF dont need to be WOKE as the WOKE have the Soc Dems , Labour and the Greens , working class Wokesters have PBP

i suspect SF have embraced the WOKE progressive agenda because they feel it will endear them to the media who have always been hostile to them

you wont break middle ireland without RTE

Loafing Oaf

Mad_maxx wrote: »

SF dont need to be WOKE as the WOKE have the Soc Dems , Labour and the Greens , working class Wokesters have PBP

Au contraire, that's exactly why they do need to be as woke as possible; that vote is very much up for grabs. They have the angry working classes sew up, now they need to win a decent chunk of the liberal middle class vote if they want to establish themselves as the largest party.

OMM 0000

James Brown wrote: »

You seem to be under the illusion that anyone can do well if they want to. Are you a millionaire? And if not, why not? Bad parents, lazy? Or would you say it's more complicated and external issues might be preventing such a move?

They can, assuming no disabilities or major issues such as addiction.

I am wealthy. I manage a large Japanese company with offices throughout Asia. I am about to start my third masters degree.

Stop blaming society for your failures and put in the effort.

Wanderer78

OMM 0000 wrote: »

They can, assuming no disabilities or major issues such as addiction.

I am wealthy. I manage a large Japanese company with offices throughout Asia. I am about to start my third masters degree.

Stop blaming society for your failures and put in the effort.

we dont live in your fantasy world of equal opportunities in life, theres loads of data and information that proves this!

OMM 0000

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we dont live in your fantasy world of equal opportunities in life, theres loads of data and information that proves this!

(1) You're pretending I said it's a world of equal opportunities, when I said the opposite.

(2) Once you're an adult, and assuming no disabilities or major issues such as addiction, any failure is on you. I know you won't accept this, just like you won't get therapy to solve your issues, exercise multiple times per week to get fit and healthy, do advanced degrees part-time, learn how to interview for jobs, join things like toastmasters to improve your speaking abilities. All these things you could do to almost guarantee you have a successful life, but you won't do them, and you'll blame society.

Wanderer78

OMM 0000 wrote: »

(1) You're pretending I said it's a world of equal opportunities, when I said the opposite.

(2) Once you're an adult, and assuming no disabilities or major issues such as addiction, any failure is on you. I know you won't accept this, just like you won't get therapy to solve your issues, exercise multiple times per week to get fit and healthy, do advanced degrees part-time, learn how to interview for jobs, join things like toastmasters to improve your speaking abilities. All these things you could do to almost guarantee you have a successful life, but you won't do them, and you'll blame society.

do you actually know anything about complex psychological issues, because you re expressing deep ignorance in this matter also?

OMM 0000

Wanderer78 wrote: »

do you actually know anything about complex psychological issues, because you re expressing deep ignorance in this matter also?

LOL

Enjoy your life.

Wanderer78

OMM 0000 wrote: »

LOL

Enjoy your life.

oh i do, and you maintain your ignorance's there!

Mad_maxx

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Au contraire, that's exactly why they do need to be as woke as possible; that vote is very much up for grabs. They have the angry working classes sew up, now they need to win a decent chunk of the liberal middle class vote if they want to establish themselves as the largest party.

Why not grab some of the many voters FF have ignored under MM ?

Those people care more about a United Ireland than Soc Dem voters

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

do you actually know anything about complex psychological issues, because you re expressing deep ignorance in this matter also?

Psychological complex issues pertain to people of all social classes, the state can't eradicate those issues

AndrewJRenko

randd1 wrote: »

Education should be a no-brainer, education is practically free until college, and even then you can get your college fees covered if you go below a threshold. There are payment schemes for low income families, most schools offer book rental schemes, uniform hand-downs and other such expense savers.

I'm not sure if you've ever parented a child through school in Ireland, but it is a very long way from 'practically free'. School fees don't exist at primary and secondary, but creche fees do for a start. And then there are all the other costs of education - books (substantial costs, even with book rental schemes), uniforms, sports gear, school trips, laptop or tablet, broadband, and more.

And then there's the stuff that allows wealthier kids from wealthier families to get one or two steps ahead of their less wealthy peers - the educational trips abroad, the grinds (not uncommon even for those going to fee paying schools), the fee-paying schools with smaller class size, and more.

It's a long way from a level playing field.

John Doe1 wrote: »

Again, as someone from a working class background in a rural county, I along with the majority of my friends from a similar background were able to get over these apparent "Systemic Inequalities". Why was that?

My granny smoked 60 cigarettes a day and lived till she was 90, so that proves smoking doesn't cause lung cancer, going by your logic.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If SF go more left or get elected and prioritise social left policy over a united Ireland / looking after our own, I can see a huge split where the national party, AONTU and the new ben Gilroy renua ifp amalgamation play hungry hungry hippos for those voters who feel SF weren't putting '32 county united Ireland for the Irish' first.

Great to hear that the bould Ben is in bed with the IFP, that should do them no end of harm, starting from today.

https://twitter.com/CMacCoille/status/1364262894657892355

OMM 0000

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Psychological complex issues pertain to people of all social classes, the state can't eradicate those issues

Get with the programme, the working class are the salt of the earth and the middle class were born with silver spoons in their mouths.

The mental gymnastics these people will do to excuse their failures is beyond sad.

ThunbergsAreGo

Irs says something about the toxicity of the National Party that in a time where many people hate the lockdown group think of almost ever other party they can't see an increase in polls etc.

A toxic party of morons.

Surprised a competent politician/party hasn't started something anti lockdown.

Tony EH

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Once you're an adult, and assuming no disabilities or major issues such as addiction, any failure is on you.

This is untrue.

Peregrinus

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Surprised a competent politician/party hasn't started something anti lockdown.

Maybe because competent politicians/parties won't be anti-lockdown?

ThunbergsAreGo

Peregrinus wrote: »

Maybe because competent politicians/parties won't be anti-lockdown?

Ill replace competent with ambitious (or even not racist) , was the wrong choice of words.

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote:

Psychological complex issues pertain to people of all social classes, the state can't eradicate those issues

Of course the state can't eradicate these issues, but we(collectively), can deal with these issues far better, but this requires significant state involvement. Yes these issues do indeed affect all social classes, but you will find many simply cannot afford access to services, and such public services simply don't exist, or have very long waiting lists, and these services can be substandard, compared to some private sector, paid for services. For example, ive spent a grand on assessments, which is cheap, and one of my therapists is 70 a visit. I suspect you 'll find very few lower classes can afford such 'luxuries'!

OMM 0000 wrote:

The mental gymnastics these people will do to excuse their failures is beyond sad.

Wanderer78 wrote:

oh i do, and you maintain your ignorance's there!

Peregrinus

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Ill replace competent with ambitious (or even not racist) , was the wrong choice of words.

Do we have any recent opinion polling on public attitudes to lockdown in Ireland? I'm questioning the assumption that an anti-lockdown stance will attract much support other than from the usual contrarians who support fringe parties and/or fail to vote. But I'm happy to be proven wrong about this.

If I'm right, though, it would explain why canny politicials are leaving anti-lockdown politics to the certified loons.

francois

Peregrinus wrote: »

Do we have any recent opinion polling on public attitudes to lockdown in Ireland? I'm questioning the assumption that an anti-lockdown stance will attract much support other than from the usual contrarians who support fringe parties and/or fail to vote. But I'm happy to be proven wrong about this.

If I'm right, though, it would explain why canny politicials are leaving anti-lockdown politics to the certified loons.

From the red c pollsite... About 70% support for strong lockdown:



We also asked if people believed that pubs and restaurants should remain closed, until most people had been vaccinated. Clearly this is a very strict position, but even still 70% of the public actually supports the idea. That is despite the fact that during the time that the poll was in field, it became clear that many may not be vaccinated until late into 2021.

ThunbergsAreGo

francois wrote: »

From the red c pollsite... About 70% support for strong lockdown:



We also asked if people believed that pubs and restaurants should remain closed, until most people had been vaccinated. Clearly this is a very strict position, but even still 70% of the public actually supports the idea. That is despite the fact that during the time that the poll was in field, it became clear that many may not be vaccinated until late into 2021.

Which leaves 30% that are not, far above the what most parties are polling at at the moment. Also the situation is different now than it was in January and will (hopefully) continue to improve

Peregrinus

Thanks for this. Interesting, support for the view that pubs and restaurants should stay closed until vaccination is largely complete was strongest among FF (84%) and FG (78%) voters, whereas ordinarily you would expect those parties to attract the support of those sensitive to the interests of business owners and operators. Support was weakest among SF voters but, even there, it was 65%.

It seems that support for a tough lockdown (treating pub and restaurant closures as a crude proxy for tough social restrictions generally) is widespread, and enjoys a comfortable majority across social classes, age groups and party identifications. There is no gender difference. An anti-lockdown stance is not going to attract wide support from any group, but those that it does attract are more likely to be younger SF supporters and least likely to be older FF supporters.

Eric Cartman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Great to hear that the bould Ben is in bed with the IFP, that should do them no end of harm, starting from today.

https://twitter.com/CMacCoille/status/1364262894657892355

Wasnt he legally banned from ‘assisting’ poor souls like this , because he kept giving them awful advice