The National Party

friendlyfun

Barrett is an absolute oddball. He's like a little Mussolini.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

Does Ireland really seem to you like the type of country where that could happen?

It didn't until recently.

In the last decade the Irish electorate voted in referendums on same sex marriage and abortion. Both were landslide results in favor of both. It wasn't close and those who voted against in those referendums aren't voting for far right parties in elections. A country that is ripe for being exploited by a smooth talking far right candidate generally doesn't display those type of socially inclusive sympathies, not once but twice.

We all have fears, what you've outlined above is not a rational fear, just yet more alarmist fear mongering based in fantastical thinking.

"Alarmist fear mongering based in fantastical thinking", that's quite the accusation based on a fear of one person being elected.

To be clear, what I am afraid of isn't that the NP will actually get elected in sufficient numbers to be involved in government any time soon. What I am afraid of is that someone with same beliefs as Barrett, but with better people skills will get elected in one constituency. That's all it will take to give these lunatics legitimacy.



Is it so fantastical to worry about that? I don't think so.

Shaka Hislop

nullzero wrote: »

What you are suggesting above about little Justin Barrett's popping up around the country isn't borne out by fact, it's a doomsday fantasy, the sky is falling in, let's all start panicking.

This is completely incorrect

nullzero

Shaka Hislop wrote: »

This is completely incorrect

Give an example then

paw patrol

Brian? wrote: »

I think you may want to stop and examine your own political beliefs if you think the NP are traditional conservatives.

They want to deport anyone who isn't ethnically Irish. They want to execute doctors who perform abortions.

They are a lunatic fringe on the right. They are fascists.

I examine my beliefs regularly.
but thanks for your concern

Brian? wrote: »

Have you heard the pathetic little man speak? He's not guilty by association. He's guilty because he's a fascist

Actually we are in agreement there. He isn't the messiah of the right - he doesn't have whatever it is that is needed.
He gets too involved in the street-level sniping and sh1te on twitter to be a leader.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

It didn't until recently.



"Alarmist fear mongering based in fantastical thinking", that's quite the accusation based on a fear of one person being elected.

To be clear, what I am afraid of isn't that the NP will actually get elected in sufficient numbers to be involved in government any time soon. What I am afraid of is that someone with same beliefs as Barrett, but with better people skills will get elected in one constituency. That's all it will take to give these lunatics legitimacy.



Is it so fantastical to worry about that? I don't think so.

I addressed that exact scenario already.

There isn't a hope of a slicker version of Barrett getting elected anywhere in this country. It isn't something that is ever likely to happen as there is no support for it.

You might be afraid it's going to happen but that doesn't make your fear rational, it has no basis in reality, no matter how many similarly deluded people thank your posts it isn't an issue.

You are ignoring the fact that Ireland is one of the most progressive countries in the planet, our recent political history makes a mockery of your suggestion as well as our historical lack of interest in extremist politics.

Annasopra

nullzero wrote: »

What you are suggesting above about little Justin Barrett's popping up around the country isn't borne out by fact,

It absolutely is born out by fact

2016 General election pretty much 0 Candidates on the far right
2020 General election over 60 candidates on the far right

paw patrol

Annasopra wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Justin Barrett was never in Italy or Germany. He never spoke at Neo Nazi Rallies with known Nazi extremists
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/far-right-rally-had-welcome-for-irish-no-activist-1.1098691
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/barrett-admits-attending-far-right-party-meetings-in-italy-germany-1.1098920

He was never convicted of Pro Life Riots
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/youth-defence-unrepentant-as-eight-convicted-26153253.html
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pro-life-picket-riot-blamed-on-gardai-26152629.html

He never advocated murdering doctors who carry out abortions
https://twitter.com/soundmigration/status/1402748641337618434

He was never in that nice Youth Defence who never had links with extremists
https://www.hotpress.com/opinion/i-was-a-member-of-youth-defence-10023271
https://www.lookleft.ie/2012/12/sinister-shadows/


His wife isnt a racist/extremist
https://farrightobservatory.medium.com/national-party-propagandist-discusses-torturing-and-executing-children-823fa6585509
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/dublin-lord-mayor-hazel-chu-22958987


He doesnt advocate Hanging either
https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/5208960/original/?width=630&version=5208960

Their Louth Member Michael Quinn isnt a violent thug either
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/protester-beat-activist-with-tricolour-on-plank-39660339.html

This is interesting . All I said were they weren't far right fascists in the manner the national front would be in the Uk - a factual statement - yet here you are trying to tie me to the NP and Barrett (whom I've never met).
some weird perversion to catch me into defending this man when I said nothing of the sort

Look at this pile on - the audacity of me to reject your narrative and see the far right everywhere like it's a warped sequal - the 6th Sense "I see Fascists" :pac:

Anyway I've time on my hands....so lets go

anti abortion
how dare he - you haven't seen my previous posts I assume?
I am anti abortion so if you are trying to catch me out by saying somebody is too anti abortion or they have misguided tactics - you wasting your time on that. I don't advocate violence to people in the abortion industry but I won't be crying if something bad happens them either.


violent thug
He hit somebody at a political rally which isn't great but hardly a hanging offence. It's a bit pathetic of a dig tbh the left-wing agitators are well able to be violent - going back years. In the 1990s my granny was assaulted by the socialist workers while in her 70s on O'Connell St at some rally that was dear to her - i was 15 or so can't rem what probably something holy anyway.

Your piety is pathetic berating me over the actions of somebody I never heard of yet the Antifa crew continue to have peados front and center and are a group that are well versed in street violence themselves.
Maybe sort that out before you take the moral high ground - just saying...

Right Wing Rally
if the meetings/rallys were legal - then i've no issue with a person attending - one should attend rallies of all parties to hear what is said rather than rely on the media.

hanging
Is that some sort of gothca ? I advocate the death penalty for some crimes.
I'd hang peados and child sex abusers. Rapists' would need to make a strong case to avoid the rope if I had my way.


.
so what did you get outha all that.
he went to a few rallies of people you don't approve of - not sure if I do either tbh - but takes more than an article in the irish Times to convince me -
so well done.

Oh ...and his wife ....he married bad...don't we all :pac:

try harder.

He gave speeches to two different groups of fascists, one of the groups tended to heavily quoted Hitler... So ya, that's not a traditional conservative. He also said he would execute doctors who give abortions which is not a traditional conservative position. Pretty sure you'd view Mussolini as a traditional conservative.

Annasopra

paw patrol wrote: »

Maybe that cuts too close to home given your defense (and possible membership) of a group that associates with peados

Not replying to you any further with that shameful comment

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He gave speeches to two different groups of fascists, one of the groups tended to heavily quoted Hitler... So ya, that's not a traditional conservative. He also said he would execute doctors who give abortions which is not a traditional conservative position. Pretty sure you'd view Mussolini as a traditional conservative.

Mussolini was probably too liberal for him

paw patrol

Annasopra wrote: »

Not replying to you any further with that shameful comment

No problem

ohnonotgmail

paw patrol wrote: »

Right Wing Rally
if the meetings/rallys were legal - then i've no issue with a person attending - one should attend rallies of all parties to hear what is said rather than rely on the media.


try harder.

he didn't just attend some rallies. he was an invited guest and he spoke at the rallies. Far right fascist rallies. But i'm telling you something you already know. the problem is that you just dont care.

pjohnson

Annasopra wrote: »

Not replying to you any further with that shameful comment

Given his cheerleading of Barrett its not suprising thats his level.

Barrett appeals to that level as no one with any decency or respect will listen to him.

Annasopra

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he didn't just attend some rallies. he was an invited guest and he spoke at the rallies. Far right fascist rallies. But i'm telling you something you already know. the problem is that you just dont care.

Honoured guest and he has pretty much said that everything in the Irish Times was true so the poster above getting a jibe at the Irish Times is nonsense too. Justin Barrett and The National Party are fascists. The evidence is overwhelming.

nullzero

Annasopra wrote: »

It absolutely is born out by fact

2016 General election pretty much 0 Candidates on the far right
2020 General election over 60 candidates on the far right

60 candidates on the far right?

Are you in the real world?

You could describe Irish Freedom as right wing, not as much as the National Party, even if you lumped in Renua( who incidentally ran in the 2016 election) in you're talking about 31 candidates in total which garnered between them 0.6% of the votes cast.

Yet again, facts completely ignored in favor of scare mongering.

The poster I was replying to was asked to give examples of the "little Justin Barrett's" that are supposedly popping up all over the country. I'm still waiting.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

I addressed that exact scenario already.

There isn't a hope of a slicker version of Barrett getting elected anywhere in this country. It isn't something that is ever likely to happen as there is no support for it.

You might be afraid it's going to happen but that doesn't make your fear rational, it has no basis in reality, no matter how many similarly deluded people thank your posts it isn't an issue.

You are ignoring the fact that Ireland is one of the most progressive countries in the planet, our recent political history makes a mockery of your suggestion as well as our historical lack of interest in extremist politics.

At a national level Ireland is a great little place, it's a progressive Utopia. I think it's great.

But there are 2 members of the Healy-Rae family in the Dail. That firmly roots my concerns in reality. A slick combination of parish pump politics and populist anti immigrant politics, combined with the right constituency can make it happen.


Why is people thanking my posts an issue? If there is one thing I always do is speak my mind regardless of what others think.

Mike Murdock

friendlyfun wrote: »

Barrett is an absolute oddball. He's like a little Mussolini.

Without the height, voice, or charisma.

Mike Murdock

Shaka Hislop wrote: »

While the NP may not be in a position to gain a seat anywhere, to claim that damage isn't being done is erroneous in my view.
All you have to do is look to social media to see the rise of far right thinking.
Little Justin Barret's are popping up in different parts of the country and gaining followings.
All the need do is shout the magic words, "Agenda 21, NWO, depopulation, pride flag, prepare for war, doing god's work" and you'll see the people who believe this rubbish flocking to them.
They look upon the government as George Soros' puppets and Sinn Féin as traitors....so they will be looking for people to vote for in upcoming elections

And you know what? They'll get less than 1% of the vote.

Some of you guys are Tilting at Windmills here.

Scoundrel

While Littler is too stupid to capitalise on any right wing support out there the genuine fear is that someone smarter and with more charisma could tap into populist right wing support and create a genuine right wing political force in this state.

Even Littler has increased support and awareness of NP in the last few years. Look at Peter Casey a man totally devoid of charisma talent or intelligence who simply blew the anti traveller dog whistle and came second in the presidential election imagine the damage a properly intelligent charismatic right wing politician could do.

Wibbs

nullzero wrote: »

60 candidates on the far right?

Are you in the real world?

You could describe Irish Freedom as right wing, not as much as the National Party, even if you lumped in Renua( who incidentally ran in the 2016 election) in you're talking about 31 candidates in total which garnered between them 0.6% of the votes cast.

Yet again, facts completely ignored in favor of scare mongering.

Feelings are easier to justify and base an "argument" on it seems. Hardly a shock, and not just a symptom of the "left" either. QV the "great replacement" eejits. Two cheeks of the same wobbly arse and both talk from the same orifice. Extreme views and fear are pretty much always based on misplaced hysterics, with some wish fantasy going on that the other side is far more in power than it is. Reds[insert personal boogyman here] under the bed. If anything the right wingers have more of a leg to stand on here.

As you note the support for "far right" politics in this nation is miniscule and this it borne out repeatedly in elections and referenda. Now one could argue that in the latter the SSM and Repeal votes showed more of an appetite for "far right" thinking in the nays and they did make up around a third of the votes and the 04 birthright citizenship vote was an overwhelming nay across the electoral nation. However these were single issue votes, not any indication of wider "far right" support, certainly in the SSM/Repeal votes and in those cases it could be just as easily argued as an echo of "catholic Ireland" particularly in the older demographics. The citizenship vote brought us into line with every other EU nation that doesn't have Jus soli rights. Unless the same worrywart crawthumpers consider our EU partners "far right". America does have jus soli(with restrictions) and is much more "right wing" in flavour in culture and politic. Indeed a list of nations with jui soli rights tend more to the right than the left.

Again the Irish elctorate's position of overwhelmingly centre and pretty much centre left with it is borne out by actual elections. Sinn Fein has made massive inroads over the last few years. They're about the biggest shift in the party system here in a generation. Are they "far right"? Of course not.

Maybe it's an age demographic thing going on? I have noticed down the years that those of a right or left bent show some trends as they age. The young are more fluid, more open to change and debate. The middle aged and above right tend to get more dug in, more aggressive even and less open to debate and change of their views, the middle aged and above left are also less open to debate and change of their views, but become more anxiety ridden, even hysterical. Both amp up the rhetoric.

ohnonotgmail

Wibbs wrote: »

Feelings are easier to justify and base an "argument" on it seems. Hardly a shock, and not just a symptom of the "left" either. QV the "great replacement" eejits. Two cheeks of the same wobbly arse and both talk from the same orifice. Extreme views and fear are pretty much always based on misplaced hysterics, with some wish fantasy going on that the other side is far more in power than it is. Reds[insert personal boogyman here] under the bed. If anything the right wingers have more of a leg to stand on here.

As you note the support for "far right" politics in this nation is miniscule and this it borne out repeatedly in elections and referenda. Now one could argue that in the latter the SSM and Repeal votes showed more of an appetite for "far right" thinking in the nays and they did make up around a third of the votes and the 04 birthright citizenship vote was an overwhelming nay across the electoral nation. However these were single issue votes, not any indication of wider "far right" support, certainly in the SSM/Repeal votes and in those cases it could be just as easily argued as an echo of "catholic Ireland" particularly in the older demographics. The citizenship vote brought us into line with every other EU nation that doesn't have Jus soli rights. Unless the same worrywart crawthumpers consider our EU partners "far right". America does have jus soli(with restrictions) and is much more "right wing" in flavour in culture and politic. Indeed a list of nations with jui soli rights tend more to the right than the left.

Again the Irish elctorate's position of overwhelmingly centre and pretty much centre left with it is borne out by actual elections. Sinn Fein has made massive inroads over the last few years. They're about the biggest shift in the party system here in a generation. Are they "far right"? Of course not.

Maybe it's an age demographic thing going on? I have noticed down the years that those of a right or left bent show some trends as they age. The young are more fluid, more open to change and debate. The middle aged and above right tend to get more dug in, more aggressive even and less open to debate and change of their views, the middle aged and above left are also less open to debate and change of their views, but become more anxiety ridden, even hysterical. Both amp up the rhetoric.

You do post some absolute pony sometimes Wibbs. There is no battle of ideas with people like Barratt.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

At a national level Ireland is a great little place, it's a progressive Utopia. I think it's great.

But there are 2 members of the Healy-Rae family in the Dail. That firmly roots my concerns in reality.

The Healy-Raes? That's your concern and example of the potential rise of a far right here? An anachronistic dynastic throwback to old parish Ireland with bugger all power, when by every other actual demonstrable metric the politics of the Irish people have been overwhelmingly trending towards the progressive.

A slick combination of parish pump politics and populist anti immigrant politics, combined with the right constituency can make it happen.

I have always found it interesting when people talk about democracy regardless of politial position that something one agrees with is "the will of the people", when it's not it becomes "populist". I hate to break it to you, democracy by its very nature is populism. Never mind that parish pump politics while present is waning as more of the electorate moved from actual parishes into urban areas where it holds far less sway. And again the swing has been almost entirely to the "left" in Irish politics of the last 30 years. If we were having this debate in the 1970's it might have had more traction, but it's beyond daft today.

Wibbs

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You do post some absolute pony sometimes Wibbs.

Your erudition and break down of my argument has certainly humbled me.

There is no battle of ideas with people like Barratt.

Who in god's name suggested there were? There is no "battle of ideas" simply because Barratt has no army to field. The only time they've put forward candidates they didn't put him on the ticket because even they wanted to avoid embarrassment they knew would result. Those they did put forward garnered 1200 votes. Twelve hundred. Less than one percent of votes in one, barely over one percent in the other. Next month Barret has his name down on the Dublin Bay South byelection ballot. I'll bet the farm now that if he gets more than 2% of the votes and that's a bloody high bar I'm setting, I'll buy a hat and eat it.

He and his party have zero power and pretty much zero electoral support. This is a cast iron fact. Their own ard pheis of apparently similar minded people barely filled a function room with fifty people and even then some of their supporters walked out halfway through, because of homophopic comments from one of the speakers that Barratt backed up. Even within their support base they have anti homophobic people. You couldn't make this up.

To consider Barratt, his "party" of fifty supporters showing up in a Clare hotel room, 1200 voters, the occasional moron on social media and zero mandate from the Irish electorate as some far right existential threat; that is the very definition of hysteria.

newhouse87

Brian? wrote: »

At a national level Ireland is a great little place, it's a progressive Utopia. I think it's great.

But there are 2 members of the Healy-Rae family in the Dail. That firmly roots my concerns in reality. A slick combination of parish pump politics and populist anti immigrant politics, combined with the right constituency can make it happen.


Why is people thanking my posts an issue? If there is one thing I always do is speak my mind regardless of what others think.

Suppose some people could say they are worried about the rise of the far left with Paul Murphy and Brid smith in the dail.

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

Feelings are easier to justify and base an "argument" on it seems. Hardly a shock, and not just a symptom of the "left" either. QV the "great replacement" eejits. Two cheeks of the same wobbly arse and both talk from the same orifice. Extreme views and fear are pretty much always based on misplaced hysterics, with some wish fantasy going on that the other side is far more in power than it is. Reds[insert personal boogyman here] under the bed. If anything the right wingers have more of a leg to stand on here.

As you note the support for "far right" politics in this nation is miniscule and this it borne out repeatedly in elections and referenda. Now one could argue that in the latter the SSM and Repeal votes showed more of an appetite for "far right" thinking in the nays and they did make up around a third of the votes and the 04 birthright citizenship vote was an overwhelming nay across the electoral nation. However these were single issue votes, not any indication of wider "far right" support, certainly in the SSM/Repeal votes and in those cases it could be just as easily argued as an echo of "catholic Ireland" particularly in the older demographics. The citizenship vote brought us into line with every other EU nation that doesn't have Jus soli rights. Unless the same worrywart crawthumpers consider our EU partners "far right". America does have jus soli(with restrictions) and is much more "right wing" in flavour in culture and politic. Indeed a list of nations with jui soli rights tend more to the right than the left.

Again the Irish elctorate's position of overwhelmingly centre and pretty much centre left with it is borne out by actual elections. Sinn Fein has made massive inroads over the last few years. They're about the biggest shift in the party system here in a generation. Are they "far right"? Of course not.

Maybe it's an age demographic thing going on? I have noticed down the years that those of a right or left bent show some trends as they age. The young are more fluid, more open to change and debate. The middle aged and above right tend to get more dug in, more aggressive even and less open to debate and change of their views, the middle aged and above left are also less open to debate and change of their views, but become more anxiety ridden, even hysterical. Both amp up the rhetoric.

Am I worried about the NP getting into government? Absolutely not.

Am I worried about one of them getting elected and poisoning the political discourse, giving legitimacy to their lunacy? Yes, somewhat. I can see it happening with the right candidate, in the right constituency at the right time.

That's hardly hysteria.

Wibbs

And let's imagine that then. One gets elected in one constituency. Then what? The occasional shot of them in the Dail doing a "Healy-Rae" clown show for political humour at the end of a news segment that actually achieves nothing? And again if they are elected on whatever political ticket they run on, that is legitimacy for the voters who ticked X in the box. That's democracy. It isn't "ideas I like and only ideas I like". That's something else entirely.

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

The Healy-Raes? That's your concern and example of the potential rise of a far right here? An anachronistic dynastic throwback to old parish Ireland with bugger all power, when by every other actual demonstrable metric the politics of the Irish people have been overwhelmingly trending towards the progressive.

If people will elect them lads, it genuinely worries me.

I have always found it interesting when people talk about democracy regardless of politial position that something one agrees with is "the will of the people", when it's not it becomes "populist". I hate to break it to you, democracy by its very nature is populism. Never mind that parish pump politics while present is waning as more of the electorate moved from actual parishes into urban areas where it holds far less sway. And again the swing has been almost entirely to the "left" in Irish politics of the last 30 years. If we were having this debate in the 1970's it might have had more traction, but it's beyond daft today.

Jesus, why does every counter argument have to be so hyperbolic.

This morning I've been called hysterical, ludicrous and now "beyond daft". Among other things.

Can we not just debate cordially without the nonsense?

seamus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he didn't just attend some rallies. he was an invited guest and he spoke at the rallies. Far right fascist rallies. But i'm telling you something you already know. the problem is that you just dont care.

He does care - he cares because the national party are a perfect fit for his views and resents the implication that he might in fact be right at home with fascists and right-wing extremists.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

He does care - he cares because the national party are a perfect fit for his views and resents the implication that he might in fact be right at home with fascists and right-wing extremists.

It's a little bit telling of the outlandish views of the user when he made a particularly nasty claim about a user with zero basis. Meanwhile in denial that Barrett is a Nazi fanboy.