The National Party

ohnonotgmail

Wibbs wrote: »

Your erudition and break down of my argument has certainly humbled me.

it was all the response it deserved.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

If people will elect them lads, it genuinely worries me.

Those eejits have for some unfathomable reason - that's maybe fathomable to their local electorate - created a parish pump dynasty now pretty much unique in the country. Again if we were discussing this in the 70's or 60's it would make more sense, but they're an anachronism of an old Ireland that is showing no indications of a return. If anything they've become the exception that proves the rule.

Jesus, why does every counter argument have to be so hyperbolic.

This morning I've been called hysterical, ludicrous and now "beyond daft". Among other things.

Can we not just debate cordially without the nonsense?

No I said the idea of this far right threat is daft and demonstrably so. Please point out where I said you were daft. You can't. I didn't. I also noted that the great replacement eejits are equally daft and actually personalised it in that case.

As for Hysteria: Excessive fear. To regard the NP who have so far gathered barely over a thousand votes, no encumbent members and highly unlikely to ever have any and see them as a threat to a political culture and elctorate that has had about the biggest swing towards progressiveness of any European state on the last 50 years and a swing that continues apace, can pretty easily be described and indeed discounted as "hysterical" in nature. If we had say a dozen "far right" TD's and/or councillors here it might bear the weight of concern, but we don't. In fact we do have "far left" TD's and/or councillors. The right wingers actually have far more of a concern around the push against their type of politics.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

If people will elect them lads, it genuinely worries me.



Jesus, why does every counter argument have to be so hyperbolic.

This morning I've been called hysterical, ludicrous and now "beyond daft". Among other things.

Can we not just debate cordially without the nonsense?

Nobody has been anything but cordial to you. You are spouting hyperbolic nonsense comparing the Healy Raes to the far right and worrying about the potential of a slicker version of Justin Barrett coming along to hoodwink the electorate in a country that has no history of entertaining such nonsense.

When you make a ridiculous argument you can expect it to me rigorously deconstructed, just as you would do if the boot was on the other foot.

It annoys me that people give credence to the idea that the far right is on the rise in Ireland, it isn't borne out by facts, it exists as an idea in your and a few others minds.

The only time the National Party make the news is when their Anti Fascist counterparts come out and throw things at them. They literally keep the NP relevant, and by extension give them an air of fleeting legitimacy when they are having missiles thrown at them by twits in masks outside Leinster house.

By all means we should keep tabs on these cretins, but a little perspective wouldn't hurt in terms of understanding what their reach actually is.

Wibbs

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it was all the response it deserved.

Because it was the only arrow you had in your quiver.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a little bit telling of the outlandish views of the user when he made a particularly nasty claim about a user with zero basis. Meanwhile in denial that Barrett is a Nazi fanboy.

Barret is a nazi. Though I get itchy hair with the simplistic kneejerk label. It's up there with the equally lazy SJW/Loony Leftie stuff. But there is zero denying he and his party are far right nationalists and to suggest otherwise is daft, even if one is a supporter of his views. Especially if one is a supporter of his views.

The issue is their entrance into the mainstream as the title says. They haven't even got past the front gates of the mainstream. They couldn't find the mainstream on a map. They are a non entity in Irish politics. If we had a Monster Raving Loony party here it would probably get more votes. Dustin the Turkey probably got more spoiled votes back in the day.

nullzero

Wibbs wrote: »

Because it was the only arrow you had in your quiver.

Barret is a nazi. Though I get itchy hair with the simplistic kneejerk label. It's up there with the equally lazy SJW/Loony Leftie stuff. But there is zero denying he and his party are far right nationalists and to suggest otherwise is daft, even if one is a supporter of his views. Especially if one is a supporter of his views.

The issue is their entrance into the mainstream as the title says. They haven't even got past the front gates of the mainstream. They couldn't find the mainstream on a map. They are a non entity in Irish politics. If we had a Monster Raving Loony party here it would probably get more votes. Dustin the Turkey probably got more spoiled votes back in the day.

This.

The beliefs of the NP are evident, their entrance into the mainstream is the discussion at hand and as you said they are failing to do so with some aplomb.

The self righteous hysteria that gets thrown around here boggles the mind, as if the clarion call of anti fascism emanating from this thread will save Ireland from the sweaty clutches of the far right has long since surpassed Helen Lovejoy levels of shrillness.

nullzero

nullzero wrote: »

This.

The beliefs of the NP are evident, their entrance into the mainstream is the discussion at hand and as you said they are failing to do so with some aplomb.

The self righteous hysteria that gets thrown around here boggles the mind, as if the clarion call of anti fascism emanating from this thread will save Ireland from the sweaty clutches of the far right has long since surpassed Helen Lovejoy levels of shrillness.

Don't think that people are postings hysterically more that people quite rightly have a dislike for the national party and what they stand for, while others pretend that they don't have anything in common with the party and what they stand for and deny any evidence presented about Barrett or the party. But given some of those arguing stated in other threads that their partner voted for repeal of the 8th because they didn't understand the issue and they voted against it because they did I wouldn't hold their posts as anything close to based on honesty.

Annasopra

nullzero wrote: »

This.

The beliefs of the NP are evident, their entrance into the mainstream is the discussion at hand and as you said they are failing to do so with some aplomb.

The self righteous hysteria that gets thrown around here boggles the mind, as if the clarion call of anti fascism emanating from this thread will save Ireland from the sweaty clutches of the far right has long since surpassed Helen Lovejoy levels of shrillness.

Nah. The hysteria and shrillness in this thread isnt at all coming from those concerned about the NP.

dan1895

newhouse87 wrote: »

Suppose some people could say they are worried about the rise of the far left with Paul Murphy and Brid smith in the dail.

Are Paul Murphy and Brid Smith looking to execute doctors? Are their supporters discussing how to normalise the public torture and execution of children?

Dyr

dan1895 wrote: »

Are their supporters discussing how to normalise the public torture and execution of children?

Eh?

newhouse87

dan1895 wrote: »

Are Paul Murphy and Brid Smith looking to execute doctors? Are their supporters discussing how to normalise the public torture and execution of children?

Did i say they were?

dan1895

newhouse87 wrote: »

Did i say they were?

Then why are you equating them being in the Daíl with the rise of the NP?

dan1895

Bambi wrote: »

Eh?

https://farrightobservatory.medium.com/national-party-propagandist-discusses-torturing-and-executing-children-823fa6585509

newhouse87

dan1895 wrote: »

Then why are you equating them being in the Daíl with the rise of the NP?

Have a read back the last couple of pages and you might see why, before jumping to conclusions.

Wibbs

Annasopra wrote: »

Nah. The hysteria and shrillness in this thread isnt at all coming from those concerned about the NP.

Certainly not all. However the political "panic" about a complete non entity politically is over the top. Could a more right wing party enter the Irish political mainstream? It's of course possible, but IMHO it's far more likely to be an existing mainstream party that is centrist who would veer more right on particular issues(immigration an obvious one, a rejig of social welfare another), rather than some grassroots groundswell for an overall right wing party. The NP are not and going on their actual reality based results and support never going to be. Their focus on "Ye Olde Oirland" dancing at the crossroads "values" haven't had any political currency in decades. Even if this were the 1960's I'd be surprised if they could have mustered much more than a minority vote. Their wanting to withdraw from the Eurozone would scupper them on that score. The gra for the death penalty which they espouse would have found infertile ground even back then and even then we were seeing their notion of economic nationalism was a road to nowhere. That their leader is against divorce yet is divorced himself would have screwed their chances with the old conservatives. In 2020's Ireland? Their chances of a hand on the reins are slim to bugger all and I'd bet on the latter.

newhouse87

Has any poster actually said anything good about Barrett, hes a racist loon. Any normal reasoned person will see that even if they are right leaning like some of us. Other than boards i have never heard anybody even mention the national party.

Annasopra

Bambi wrote: »

Eh?

Rebecca Barrett

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a little bit telling of the outlandish views of the user when he made a particularly nasty claim about a user with zero basis. Meanwhile in denial that Barrett is a Nazi fanboy.

Quietly deleted but yep more than a little bit.

MontgomeryClift

Wibbs wrote: »

Certainly not all. However the political "panic" about a complete non entity politically is over the top. Could a more right wing party enter the Irish political mainstream? It's of course possible, but IMHO it's far more likely to be an existing mainstream party that is centrist who would veer more right on particular issues(immigration an obvious one, a rejig of social welfare another),

It amazes me that people who pay attention to politics still believe that this is going to happen.

It's a trend I've noticed among people of a conservative nature here and elsewhere. Real conservatism hasn't been tried. Surely it's going to come and steer the ship right. Any year now...

Wibbs

It might MG, and we would be better served to consider that possibility, rather than it become a surprise. History has shown time and time again that the status quo is rarely as stat as we may like to imagine, or take comfort in, and it rarely enough follows the path we think it will. That goes for those of a "conservative" nature, or a "progressive" one. Stat sua cuique dies. That's the danger for any Accepted Truth de jour. It's rarely accepted for long.

Hotblack Desiato

WrenBoy wrote: »

I'm commenting on the thread title

Someone who doesn't know that the thread title was written by an NP supporter...

Wibbs wrote: »

The issue is their entrance into the mainstream as the title says. They haven't even got past the front gates of the mainstream.

Another one

Wibbs

So what HD? The reality remains the same. They're not mainstream and almost certainly won't be.

Bobblehats

NP? No Problem, they just won’t get a vote

John Doe1

No idea why are there are so many posts about this lunatic fringe party.

However, Ireland does need a centre-right party who are skeptical of mass immigration of people outside the EU but also demonstrate western liberalism and a party outside the influence of the million lobbying groups in this country.

Hotblack Desiato

Wibbs wrote: »

So what HD? The reality remains the same. They're not mainstream and almost certainly won't be.

Ehh...

Wibbs wrote: »

The issue is their entrance into the mainstream as the title says.

The issue is NOT their entrance into the mainstream as that was nothing but a loolah fantasy - but that doesn't mean they can't have a very malign influence on our society. Starting with beating up peaceful people on the street they don't like, and propagating all sorts of hatred on social media.

Annasopra

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ehh...

The issue is NOT their entrance into the mainstream as that was nothing but a loolah fantasy - but that doesn't mean they can't have a very malign influence on our society. Starting with beating up peaceful people on the street they don't like, and propagating all sorts of hatred on social media.

Indeed. Its worth reading through all tge replies to this to see how all the propaganda came out literally just as Izzy Kamikaze had been beaten up by one of their members; doctored photos, claims she was looking for it, lies about what happened, insults about Izzy. They did all this with George Nkencho too. Numerous lies, hatred and false propaganda too.

https://twitter.com/IzzyKamikaze/status/1407553971561156610?s=19

I put up a security cam last year and have discovered that it's a little old lady delivering the NP leaflets in my part of Dublin 15. They come about once every 3 months or so. She delivered an anti-CCP leaflet one time too. I'm all for our elders getting exercise and being an active member of the community, but this strikes me as a very sad way to spend your golden years. Plus, there's an African family down the road and it can't be very pleasant for them to be getting NP literature through the door.

Wibbs

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The issue is NOT their entrance into the mainstream as that was nothing but a loolah fantasy - but that doesn't mean they can't have a very malign influence on our society. Starting with beating up peaceful people on the street they don't like, and propagating all sorts of hatred on social media.

Sadly that's a product of living in an open democratic society. You will always have extremists and hateful ones with it and if and when fists meet faces they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the laws of the same open democratic society.

Annasopra wrote: »

Indeed. Its worth reading through all tge replies to this to see how all the propaganda came out literally just as Izzy Kamikaze had been beaten up by one of their members; doctored photos, claims she was looking for it, lies about what happened, insults about Izzy.

Yep and the individual who assaulted her was arrested by the Guards and is up for sentencing. Hopefully gets a prison term out of it, but with our courts... Well, let's just say I can't hold my breath for that long. Their party leader is also under investigation.

They did all this with George Nkencho too. Numerous lies, hatred and false propaganda too.

He became a political football for a few before the poor man was cold. A number of the so called "left" and those equally intent on stoking the Them V Us fires for their own ends were spreading their own brand of nonsense about racist police and racist Ireland murdering an unarmed man in cold blood just because he was Black.

Annasopra

Wibbs wrote: »

Sadly that's a product of living in an open democratic society. You will always have extremists and hateful ones with it and if and when fists meet faces they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the laws of the same open democratic society.

Yep and the individual who assaulted her was arrested by the Guards and is up for sentencing. Hopefully gets a prison term out of it, but with our courts... Well, let's just say I can't hold my breath for that long. Their party leader is also under investigation.
He became a political football for a few before the poor man was cold. A number of the so called "left" and those equally intent on stoking the Them V Us fires for their own ends were spreading their own brand of nonsense about racist police and racist Ireland murdering an unarmed man in cold blood just because he was Black.

Lol at the "both sides" whataboutery.

The discussion was about all the far right lies and propaganda on social media. Its almost like you are trying to ignore, deflect and downplay the issue.

Wibbs

Annasopra wrote: »

Lol at the "both sides" whataboutery.

The discussion was about all the far right lies and propaganda on social media. Its almost like you are trying to ignore, deflect and downplay the issue.

It's a statement of fact. Bugger all to do with whataboutery deflection or downplaying of the idiots doing so. You brought the discussion about far right lies and propaganda on social media about it. The man's death has been used as a political point scoring exercise by a few; right, left, whatever you're having yourself. In the actual mainstream cooler heads have so far prevailed.

And you seem to have missed this part: Yep and the individual who assaulted her was arrested by the Guards and is up for sentencing. Hopefully gets a prison term out of it. But that wouldn't suit your entrenched position.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

Lol at the "both sides" whataboutery.

The discussion was about all the far right lies and propaganda on social media. Its almost like you are trying to ignore, deflect and downplay the issue.

Lol at the "you are against us if you don't wholly go along with me" whataboutery.

It's attitudes like the one in your post which alienates moderate people into getting into a discussion with you.

There was no downplaying. If you can't see that George nkenchos death was used as a propaganda tool by idiots on the right and left, then I'm afraid you are too far gone to even try to reason with