Graham Linehan banned from twitter for questioning "trans ideology"

CtevenSrowder

LLMMLL wrote: »

Not meaningless at all. My conceptualization of women includes transwomen and cis women. But an exclusive definiton is impossible.

Your conceptuslisations are irrelevant. The biological reality is that a male cannot become a female. You've thankfully conceded this point. And as such, a trans-women cannot be a women. If you are unhappy with this, well then take it up with mother nature.

Quantum Erasure

LLMMLL wrote: »

Not meaningless at all. My conceptualization of women includes transwomen and cis women. But an exclusive definiton is impossible.

So, what are some differences between those sub groups?

LLMMLL

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Your conceptuslisations are irrelevant. The biological reality is that a male cannot become a female. You've thankfully conceded this point. And as such, a trans-women cannot be a women. If you are unhappy with this, well then take it up with mother nature.

There's no need to misinterpret what I said. I think you're well aware that I actually said trans females were always female. Not that a trans female is actually a male and.cant become female. If you disagree you can just say that. No need to pretend I said something else.

LLMMLL

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

So, what are some differences between those sub groups?

I prefer to unify rather than divide

joeguevara

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Your conceptuslisations are irrelevant. The biological reality is that a male cannot become a female. You've thankfully conceded this point. And as such, a trans-women cannot be a women. If you are unhappy with this, well then take it up with mother nature.

How does Mother Nature deal with intersex

You’ve also jumped from female to woman by using as such without any explanation. Show me a scientific definiton of woman

Quantum Erasure

LLMMLL wrote: »

I prefer to unify rather than divide

Ah well thats just a pure cop-out now...

2u2me

LLMMLL wrote: »

It shows that pretty much nobody uses the word female in the way you define apart from scientists working on specific Areas.

The rest of the world uses the word female In a completely different way and will continue to do so.

Thailand have a long history with transgender people.

Since the 60's they've used 'Katoey' that translated to anyone who deviated from the dominant sexual norms. Which came to be known as trasnsgender and which now includes effeminate homosexual men.

Since then it became more about being a third gender reserved for male to female transgender people. . (Since comparibly there are virtually no female-to-male transgender people). I've seen it used in both a derogatory way and an effectionate way.

Kathoeys are more visible and more accepted in Thai culture than transgender people are in other countries in the world.

Nowadays they often use other words that translate to 'woman of the second type' as katoey has become politically incorrect.

joeguevara

If you look at these debates on line they always start by saying they are disregarding intersex as it’s a mutation and not relevant to the discussion. Just because it’s a mutation doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant. But let’s look at what intersex

Intersex people are individuals born with any of several variations in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones or genitals that, according to the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, "do not fit the typical definitions for male or female bodies". Straight away we have an example of not only male and noT only female. So what biological sex is this.

Then its always said that sex is defined in embryo. Yes but it’s maintained by hormones for the rest of life. In experiments in mice they have reversed adult female mice into male through use of hormones.
The findings suggest that being male or female is not a permanently fixed state but something that has to be continually maintained in the adult body by the constant interaction of genes to keep the status quo – and the gender war – from slipping in favour of the opposite sex.

Scientists said that the study also contradicted another biological dogma – that the "default" gender is female, with all embryos starting out as female unless they possess a male sex-determining gene. Although this remains true in terms of how gender is determined in the womb, the latest findings show that it is still possible to convert an adult female's ovaries into testosterone-producing testes.



The study was carried out on mice but the implications are relevant to humans, the scientists said. By switching off a gene called FoxL2, which exists in all mammals, the ovary cells of adult female mice developed spontaneously into the fully developed, testosterone-producing cells found in male testes, although they could not produce sperm.

We then have the fish I posted above that completely changes it’s sex and goes from male into female.

So at right now we are left with 3 sex. It’s usually brushed under the carpet that in inter sex usually one sex organ is under developed and can’t produce offspring. But ability to produce offspring is not a determination of sex. Someone who has a hysterectomy doesn’t stop being female.

So, in the future when hormone treatment is superior and can replicate turnIng off genes like they can do in mice in humans then it will be possible to change sex of a person. Just becsuse it cannot be done in humans now doesn’t mean it’s not applicable. Using examples of mice and fish as a way of transforming sex means to simply state the inalienable fact is carving out swathes of information in order to make it easier to explain/teach/discuss.

So i don’t have to take it up with Mother Nature. She already has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons.

joeguevara

2u2me wrote: »

Thailand have a long history with transgender people.

Since the 60's they've used 'Katoey' that translated to anyone who deviated from the dominant sexual norms. Which came to be known as trasnsgender and which now includes effeminate homosexual men.

Since then it became more about being a third gender reserved for male to female transgender people. . (Since comparibly there are virtually no female-to-male transgender people). I've seen it used in both a derogatory way and an effectionate way.

Kathoeys are more visible and more accepted in Thai culture than transgender people are in other countries in the world.

Nowadays they often use other words that translate to 'woman of the second type' as katoey has become politically incorrect.

Katoeys are still biologically male.. Absolutely beautiful one though but not really appropriate to discussing biological sex. I agree they appear as or even more feminine than most but they have a penis, they have xy chromosomes unless ravaged by hormones ability to produce sperm, Adam’s Apple etc. Shaving Adam’s Apple and turning a penis inside out and having a boob job may make them look like a woman, still biologically a man.

2u2me

joeguevara wrote: »

Katoeys are still biologically male. In essence a transvestite. Absolutely beautiful one though but not really appropriate to discussing biological sex. I agree they appear as or even more feminine than most but they have a penis, they have xy chromosomes unless ravaged by hormones ability to produce sperm, Adam’s Apple etc. Shaving Adam’s Apple and turning a penis inside out and having a boob job may make them look like a woman, still biologically a man.

Eh? Are all transgender travestite? I think you are getting confused somewhere.
Some transgender in Thailand refer to themselves as kathoeys.

Obviously they haven't changed their biology; that was not my point.
Only that the whole world doesn't use the world female the way this poster expects them to.

LLMMLL wrote: »

The rest of the world uses the word female In a completely different way and will continue to do so.

In Thailand they often make a clear distinction between woman and a transgender woman.

joeguevara

2u2me wrote: »

Eh? Are all transgender travestite? I think you are getting confused somewhere.
Some transgender in Thailand refer to themselves as kathoeys.

Obviously they haven't changed their biology; that was not my point.
Only that the whole world doesn't use the world female the way this poster expects them to.

Sorry I was a bit sloppy. When I said essentially A transvestite I meant it as a man. But i shouldn’t have. They are transgender as they see themselves in the wrong body

joeguevara

2u2me wrote: »

Eh? Are all transgender travestite? I think you are getting confused somewhere.
Some transgender in Thailand refer to themselves as kathoeys.

Obviously they haven't changed their biology; that was not my point.
Only that the whole world doesn't use the world female the way this poster expects them to.



In Thailand they often make a clear distinction between woman and a transgender woman.

Woman is not the same definition as female. Its all in the thread.

2u2me

joeguevara wrote: »

Woman is not the same definition as female. Its all in the thread.

Fair enough! In Thailand they make a clear distinction between female and transgender female. My apologies for using female and woman interchangeably!

joeguevara

2u2me wrote: »

Fair enough! In Thailand they make a clear distinction between female and transgender female. My apologies for using female and woman interchangeably!

Not at all. Yes a katsoey will use the pronoun she, say kha which is a female way instead of Khap used by Male, use female toilets etc but will say that she is a katoeympr ladyboy and would laugh if someone said she was a real female.

Majority never get the op but some will.its a real forward approach as they are happy being a katoey no one looks down on them. I know their Id used to say Male but not sure if that was changed. Rarely would they say they want to be in a woman’s body as they are in a recognised aNd socially acceptable 3rd

Gruffalux

joeguevara wrote: »

Not at all. Yes a katsoey will use the pronoun she, say kha which is a female way instead of Khap used by Male, use female toilets etc but will say that she is a katoeympr ladyboy and would laugh if someone said she was a real female.

Majority never get the op but some will.its a real forward approach as they are happy being a katoey no one looks down on them. I know their Id used to say Male but not sure if that was changed. Rarely would they say they want to be in a woman’s body as they are in a recognised aNd socially acceptable 3rd

The 3rd. The state that can be respected and protected alongside the biological reality of sex. It is a dignified solution to the reality that some people do not feel comfortable being their bodies natal sex. Perhaps for reasons of hormonal deficiency, perhaps a form of birth defect caused by external chemical pollution, perhaps because of autogynphilia etc. We all know it exists. And is fine.

The problems have arisen with the ideological bullying that demands the statement of what is biologically untrue, that sex can actually be changed. That a person from one side of the binary can cross over and literally become the other side . That 0 can become 1 or 1 become 0.

The 3rd space. The 3rd state. Allows for people to be who they wish to be with dignity. Protects sex based safeguards. Removes the need to barbarically medicalise children as part of an ideological campaign that seeks to prove ab initio born in the wrong body ideology. Allows ecpression of gender without perverse limits. Allows retention of healthy body form and function. Stops impotence, infertility, ill health, trauma.

If we imagine a civilised future, people of all creed, colour, shape, species! wafting around in Utopian cities like in some Star Trek scenario then the most logical reality would be the 3rd. No one would be forced to say this is a biological man if the person in front of them produces female gametes. Instead this is a transman. It is the only honest civilised way. To pretend leads to problems all rooted in dishonesty.

If we must pretend then the natal female must not discriminate if she wants to mate with a man but must accept either one with a vagina or one with a penis as both are supposedly identical. This kind of lie can never be allowed to evolve. The natal female who wishes to bear a child, or who wishes to be penetrated by a penis, must be allowed to discriminate and choose a man not a transman. To know that difference exists in reality. To not have truth obfuscated by ideology. The gay man who wishes to be penetrated by a penis must be allowed to know fundamentally the truth of the difference between transman and man. And to rationally discriminate based on reality however he chooses. A transman is a transman. That is the truth.

AndrewJRenko

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Yes because wanting to prevent women being sexually assaulted and/or raped in prison by a male is so awful. God, where's my decency!

If you REALLY want to prevent women being sexually assaulted or raped, you have lots of actual targets available to you, such as the men who assault, sexually assault and rape women every day here.

But instead, you focus on one very narrow theoretical niche scenario.

I'm not too convinced about your objective here.

AndrewJRenko

Gatling wrote: »

Managing what exactly

How many people did it effect here .

And why were there a big push for or here if only it suited a tiny number people here .

Why did we build that whole new building at St Vincent's Hospital for people with cystic fibrosis, if it only suited a tiny number of people here?

:rolleyes

AndrewJRenko

Smith152 wrote: »

I wasn't simply referring to sport in Ireland.

You weren't referring to sport in Ireland at all.

It's a bit strange to be getting so obsessed around one small detail of sports administration in other countries.

Any thoughts on promotion of female participation in sports in Wyoming or Somalia or other interesting places?

Nah, not enough drama there for you, right?

Gruffalux

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If you REALLY want to prevent women being sexually assaulted or raped, you have lots of actual targets available to you, such as the men who assault, sexually assault and rape women every day here.

But instead, you focus on one very narrow theoretical niche scenario.

I'm not too convinced about your objective here.

"Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime."

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

AndrewJRenko

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Oh, I know. I know that Ireland handed away some of my rights five years ago. And apparently, nOtHiNg HaS hApPeNeD. Apart from a male sex offender being housed in a women’s prison and needing extra prison guards to mind that one prisoner. So reassuring for the other inmates! But LOL, silly women.

You know that Limerick prison accommodates men and women, right?

Don't believe everything you read in the Sun.

In fact, don't believe anything you read in the Sun.

AndrewJRenko

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

What game has been lost, Stark? Despite being piled on by charmers telling Rowling to suck their ladydick and whatnot (remember: the right side of history), not one of her tweets on the topic were ratioed, her agency and publisher stood by her and a good scatter of mainstream publications defended her too. Seems like she enjoyed a lot of support to me. And she has stood firm. What game did she lose, Stark?

So brave of her to stand firm - just her, her Twitter account and all the resources that her billion or so in assets can provide.

Such a brave soul, punching down on trans people...

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You know that Limerick prison accommodates men and women, right?

Don't believe everything you read in the Sun.

In fact, don't believe anything you read in the Sun.

The Law Society of Ireland. You’re very welcome.

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So brave of her to stand firm - just her, her Twitter account and all the resources that her billion or so in assets can provide.

Such a brave soul, punching down on trans people...

The saltiness of this post is a thing of beauty.

One eyed Jack

joeguevara wrote: »

So, in the future when hormone treatment is superior and can replicate turnIng off genes like they can do in mice in humans then it will be possible to change sex of a person. Just becsuse it cannot be done in humans now doesn’t mean it’s not applicable. Using examples of mice and fish as a way of transforming sex means to simply state the inalienable fact is carving out swathes of information in order to make it easier to explain/teach/discuss.

So i don’t have to take it up with Mother Nature. She already has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons.

It’s not Mother Nature really has thrown the cat among the pigeons, but rather research and development of new techniques enabled by new technologies. The technology exists to edit genes and screen out all sorts of traits regarded as undesirable (PGD is used in IVF for example), and most of this stuff is carried out in the embryonic stages, but CRISPR was used in one recent case which made media headlines around the world -


World first use of gene-edited immune cells to treat ‘incurable’ leukaemia


It’s pretty interesting stuff if you’re into that sort of thing -


Human Germeline Engineering


Does this mean it will one day be possible for adult humans to literally change their sex? No, I don’t think so, and I’d even be pretty forward thinking on a lot of this stuff but the biological complexity alone of how all these systems work in tandem which humans generally never give a second thought to mean that we may be able to change characteristics and traits and so on, but for all the clever trickery involved, I could never see us developing the technology to remap the human mind (lobotomy ain’t it).

That is of course even if there weren’t some seriously squeaky bum time ethical considerations to be overcome such as whether or not the concept of human genome editing violates the concept of human dignity -


Does human genome editing reinforce or violate human dignity? - Segers - 2020 - Bioethics - Wiley Online Library


In societies like China where if they didn’t have an atrocious human rights record already and boys are seen as more valuable than girls, stuff like this could have a drastic effect on the populations in those regions. They’re already famous for what was their “one child policy”, and their latest tack isn’t any less insidious -

China forcing contraception on Uighurs to suppress inhabitants, report says

Gruffalux

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You weren't referring to sport in Ireland at all.

It's a bit strange to be getting so obsessed around one small detail of sports administration in other countries.

Any thoughts on promotion of female participation in sports in Wyoming or Somalia or other interesting places?

Nah, not enough drama there for you, right?

Hibo Wardere lives in the UK. You can see parts of it across the sea from places here on clear days! She is from Somalia. It is in the UK that she is accosted by UK bullies who attack her for speaking out on UK soil about female genital mutilation. FGM that happens in the UK. Because using the word female is transphobic. Did the women who call other women in this thread hear that - Hibo Wardere is a transphobe too. Good company for me. Fantastic woman.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalox wrote: »

Hibo Wardere lives in the UK. You can see parts of it across the sea from places here on clear days! She is from Somalia. It is in the UK that she is accosted by UK bullies who attack her for speaking out on UK soil about female genital mutilation. FGM that happens in the UK. Because using the word female is transphobic. Did the women who call other women in this thread hear that - Hibo Wardere is a transphobe too. Good company for me. Fantastic woman.

Oh Gruffalox, did you not get the memo that informed boards.ie users that they may only discuss things that happen in Ireland? We’re not allowed to care about or discuss things that happen anywhere else. Got it?

:pac:

Gruffalux

randomchild wrote: »

Reddit has banned the gender critical subreddit, once again emphasing the fact that big tech companies should have never been given the keys to the world's communication channels.

On this matter, reddit, like Twitter, has very questionable banning policies. I have never been to that reddit forum and only once or twice to Linehans twitter feed for that matter but here is a good response to reddit banning Gender Critical subforums.

https://twitter.com/adulthumanfem10/status/1277701524089692164

OscarMIlde

LLMMLL wrote: »

Many scientists are good at the day to day work of science but completely ignorant about the sociological philosophical cultural and political aspects of science. The really good scientists are aware of all these things and can successfully integrate them into the overall practice of science. Others are just worker bees, good at following the methods of their individual specialty but not having much of a scientific mindset outside of that.

I'm not ignorant of the cultural ramifications of science. We held regular ethics classes in undergraduate where we hashed out real world implications of scientific advances. However really none of the arguments brought forward by either you or Jack have anything to do with science. When you're pressed on biological realities the issue is either avoided by not replying directly or clouded in paragraphs of irrelevant waffle. The closest either of you get to defining why transwomen are women is stereotypical guff about wearing feminine clothes and womanly feelings, whatever the hell they are.

The reality is we are not hermaphrodites, it is not possible to change biological sex. There are some people who due to developmental defects will not have fully developed as a distinct biological sex, we class these people as intersex. Development is a highly complex process, and the full biological development of a human occurs not just in utero but continues throughout life, with the full adult expression of the biological sex of a person manifesting during puberty.

The hormonal cascades of puberty are not just linked to development of functional adult gonads and secondary sexual characteristics like breast development, deepening voice and facial hair. They also effect the developing brain and growth of a person.

Attempting to alter these signalling pathways in pre-teens/teens to 'treat' transgenderism has untold effects on all these areas. The signalling pathways of cells are incredibly complex and difficult to elucidate. No one can state with any certainty that these hormonal interventions are safe. Children being given these treatments are guinea pigs. They will certainly suffer from it if a few years down the line they decide they actually want to 'revert' to their real biological sex, as it is not possible to reverse the effects of these hormone treatments. I don't see how children are psychologically, emotionally or mentally well equipped to make life changing decisions such as these. In addition they most likely will be at increased risk of hormonally driven cancers in later life.

Yet you blithely advocate for 'treatments' such as these, despite the medical and psychological risks attached, and claim that I am the one lacking scientific, sociological and philosophical acuity. It would be laughable if it didn't have such serious real world implications.

Sittingpretty

LLMMLL wrote: »

No need to. Your post perfectly demonstrates it

Pity it fails to define woman.

I like what you did there, with the little emoji. Insert a little saccharine insincerity to your derision. Sweet as.

Your posts throughout the night are a finely tuned back and forth exercise from the “I know you are but what am I” school of fcukery.

Others here are far more patient in their debating with you and your galactically over inflated sense of your own intellectual superiority. All the while you remain either unable to address or purposely obfuscate any actual tangible query put to you.

It’s staggering that in response to “what makes a transwoman the same as a woman” Your best attempts at replying are:

“What is a Hammer” and/or “define table”.

Away with you, back to counting angels on a pin head

OscarMIlde

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Cis women, straight women, trans women, gay women, butch women, femme women, black women, white women, Asian women, Latina women, fertile women, infertile women, hairy women, sporty women, lazy women, creative women, autistic women, maternal women, etc etc etc

All women.
Not all the same.

simples.

That is how I see it.

And as long as none of them tell me what kind of woman I should be I'm happy for them to be whatever kind of woman they want to be because it's none of my damn business.

All of the people listed are biologically women apart from trans women, who are biological males who feel like they are or want to be women. They are however not women, no matter how much this fact hurts their feelings.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I'm not ignorant of the cultural ramifications of science. We held regular ethics classes in undergraduate where we hashed out real world implications of scientific advances. However really none of the arguments brought forward by either you or Jack have anything to do with science. When you're pressed on biological realities the issue is either avoided by not replying directly or clouded in paragraphs of irrelevant waffle. The closest either of you get to defining why transwomen are women is stereotypical guff about wearing feminine clothes and womanly feelings, whatever the hell they are.

The reality is we are not hermaphrodites, it is not possible to change biological sex. There are some people who due to developmental defects will not have fully developed as a distinct biological sex, we class these people as intersex. Development is a highly complex process, and the full biological development of a human occurs not just in utero but continues throughout life, with the full adult expression of the biological sex of a person manifesting during puberty.

The hormonal cascades of puberty are not just linked to development of functional adult gonads and secondary sexual characteristics like breast development, deepening voice and facial hair. They also effect the developing brain and growth of a person.

Attempting to alter these signalling pathways in pre-teens/teens to 'treat' transgenderism has untold effects on all these areas. The signalling pathways of cells are incredibly complex and difficult to elucidate. No one can state with any certainty that these hormonal interventions are safe. Children being given these treatments are guinea pigs. They will certainly suffer from it if a few years down the line they decide they actually want to 'revert' to their real biological sex, as it is not possible to reverse the effects of these hormone treatments. I don't see how children are psychologically, emotionally or mentally well equipped to make life changing decisions such as these. In addition they most likely will be at increased risk of hormonally driven cancers in later life.

Yet you blithely advocate for 'treatments' such as these, despite the medical and psychological risks attached, and claim that I am the one lacking scientific, sociological and philosophical acuity. It would be laughable if it didn't have such serious real world implications.

Excellent post.

OscarMIlde wrote: »

All of the people listed are biologically women apart from trans women, who are biological males who feel like they are or want to be women. They are however not women, no matter how much this fact hurts their feelings.

Yup.