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Graham Linehan banned from twitter for questioning "trans ideology"
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One eyed Jack wrote: »Be honest now Cteven, genuinely - do you honestly give a sugar when someone whom you disagree with calls you names? You’re hardly that soft surely?
It's a minor annoyance, because it isn't true. I don't care really though, no. But as I've said before it makes for poor debate more than anything.
I imagine Stark will feel the same when the accusation is coming his way, and I wish him all the best in him trying to defend himself from such accusations.0 -
Ooh loaded questions, I love answering loaded questions. Lead me to the trapdoor please :rolleyes:
You have the choice to date who you find attractive and not date who you don't find attractive, that's all that needs to be said on the matter.
Lesbians can be called transphobes if they have genital preferences. Genital preferences are by definition reductive, exclusionary and transphobic. If a transwoman is a woman their gender trumps their biology. Full stop. These conclusions are simply inherent in the ideology.0 -
Oh you found "bad person who is transgender" to justify trans-bashing. Well done.0 -
In fact many of the defenders here accept the reality of some of this; OEJ in particular is asking ”cis" women to train harder to compete in sports.
You’ll find I’ve never used that term, because it’s ridiculous.
Secondly I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect anyone to train harder if they want to win in any competition. It would be unreasonable for anyone to argue that other competitors should be excluded because they aren’t able to beat them.0 -
And such is why the logic that trans-women are actually women is ridiculous. One because it isn't true and secondly because it brings us down the path of absurdity.0 -
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You don't speak for all gay men. Plenty of gay men date transmen are are perfectly entitled to continue to identify as gay men.
Doing some mental gymnastics now to justify your point. A few pages ago, the prerogative to discriminate when choosing who to have sex with was sacrosanct. (As it should be, no-one here has argued otherwise).
And what about the gay men who will not date transmen? Are they transphobes?
(The racism equivalence angle you keep on trying to shoehorn in just completely baffles me, sorry.)0 -
And what about the gay men who will not date transmen? Are they transphobes?
(The racism equivalence angle you keep on trying to shoehorn in just completely baffles me, sorry.)
How many times are you going to ask me the same question and expect a different answer?
Everyone is entitled to their sexual preferences.Gruffalox wrote:(The racism equivalence angle you keep on trying to shoehorn in just completely baffles me, sorry.)
I'm pointing out that "to have sexual preferences is transphobic" is just one viewpoint that some people hold just as "to have sexual preferences is racist" is one viewpoint that some people hold. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand.0 -
Out of interest are there any trans people on this thread?
Totally get if people would rather not sayowing to their privacy btw.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »And such is why the logic that trans-women are actually women is ridiculous. One because it isn't true and secondly because it brings us down the path of absurdity.
The path of absurdity. Correct.
A man sires a child and 4 years later wants to be registered on the birth cert as the 'mother".
Gay people called transphobes for having genital dating preferences. The path of absurdity.0 -
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CtevenSrowder wrote: »It's a minor annoyance, because it isn't true. I don't care really though, no. But as I've said before it makes for poor debate more than anything.
I imagine Stark will feel the same when the accusation is coming his way, and I wish him all the best in him trying to defend himself from such accusations.
It really does make for poor debate, so why use it or even entertain that nonsense? It’s being used like some sort of a “gotcha!” by posters who really don’t believe it themselves.0 -
Oh you found "bad person who is transgender" to justify trans-bashing. Well done.
Here's an article on it:The question that gets danced around, however, is: “Are all these numbers indicative of transphobia?” The answer, I believe, is clearly yes.
https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/12/14/refusing-date-trans-people-transphobic0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »You’ll find I’ve never used that term, because it’s ridiculous.
Didn't say you did. The quotes were scare quotes meaning I dont like the term, not a quote from you.Secondly I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect anyone to train harder if they want to win in any competition. It would be unreasonable for anyone to argue that other competitors should be excluded because they aren’t able to beat them.
Training won't help.
Anyway I welcome your argument because unlike Andrew Renko for instance, whose argument is merely that the effect of self id isn't that big a deal yet, you admit that women are going to have to just suck it up even if they lose out in most sport competitions.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »It really does make for poor debate, so why use it or even entertain that nonsense? It’s being used like some sort of a “gotcha!” by posters who really don’t believe it themselves.
My us of it is facetious.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »Here's an article on it:
https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2019/12/14/refusing-date-trans-people-transphobic
https://www.rewire.org/racist-racial-dating-preference/
https://digitalcommons.denison.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=episteme
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_racism
It's not a viewpoint that's unique to trans people by any means.
Would I consider any of those viewpoints "admissible evidence" if someone was trying to justify racist views. No I wouldn't.0 -
Oh you found "bad person who is transgender" to justify trans-bashing. Well done.
Where did I trans bash?
I found someone who has 116.6k likes on a statement that says your belief that sexual preferences are up to the individuals is transphobic. This is the nature of the circular firing squad.0 -
https://www.rewire.org/racist-racial-dating-preference/
https://digitalcommons.denison.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=episteme
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_racism
It's not a viewpoint that's unique to trans people by any means.
Would I consider any of those viewpoints "admissible evidence" if someone was trying to justify racist views. No I wouldn't.
I never said they were views unique to trans-people. They are to some trans-activists. The point is, your very run of the mill opinion will have you labelled a transphobe. And it will happen sooner rather than later. The same way in this thread some of us whose opinions are quite run of the mill (trans-women aren't women) are labelled 'anti-trans', 'transphobic' and 'trans-bashing'. As I said, I wish you luck in trying to fend off the claims, because you won't be able to.0 -
How many times are you going to ask me the same question and expect a different answer?
Everyone is entitled to their sexual preferences.
I'm pointing out that "to have sexual preferences is transphobic" is just one viewpoint that some people hold just as "to have sexual preferences is racist" is one viewpoint that some people hold. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand.
Genital sexual.preferences are transphobic according to the ideology. It is just the way it has travelled onwards as an idea. It embraces absurdity.
On the race thing, a race is not something one identifies into. It is an immutable characteristic. To have prejudice against anothers immutable characteristic is horrid.
One can identify as a different gender. Other people can decide for themselves whether or not to accept that as a transformation for the purpose of dating and mating. Gender identity does not affect ones immutable biological sex. The fact is many do not accept transmen in the gay dating pool or transwomen in the lesbian dating pool. Which is perfectly fine. As homosexuality is same sex attraction. The gay men can legitimately differentiate because they know that transmen are not men and it is not discrimination.0 -
There's certain nuance of course. Everyone has to the right to politely decline. Though I do notice some people will put in their bios on certain apps a clear "I will not date X, Y, Z" when they have the option to simply swipe left on people they don't like , which I'd find quite crass at best. As in the only reason to put a megaphone in front of it is you those people to know they're unattractive as opposed to politely declining while respecting a person's feelings.On the race thing, a race is not something one identifies into. It is an immutable characteristic. To have prejudice against anothers immutable characteristic is horrid.
Many dating decisions are based on immutable characteristics. I'm a short man and many people only like tall men. C'est la vie.0 -
Didn't say you did. The quotes were scare quotes meaning I dont like the term, not a quote from you.
Your use of it implies you imagine I make a distinction in those circumstances, I don’t, because I don’t care.Training won't help.
Of course training helps? I’d say the same of anyone who wanted to participate in anything - train harder and you’ll get better at it and might actually be in with a chance of winning at competitive level. Whether it’s the Olympics or the Paralympics or any other competition.Anyway I welcome your argument because unlike Andrew Renko for instance, whose argument is merely that the effect of self id isn't that big a deal yet, you admit that women are going to have to just suck it up even if they lose out in most sport competitions.
It might have escaped your attention, but most women do already lose out in every sports competition, they’re generally referred to as the losers, and the winners are referred to as, well, winners! Because nobody wants to lose, they’re either motivated to train harder, or they simply give up on the sport. I don’t imagine anyone with any passion for sport is going to be deterred by the other competitors. It certainly hasn’t happened yet and there are no indications it is guaranteed to happen in the future, so your argument against anyone competing is predicated upon a false premise of the purpose of sports competitions in the first place.0 -
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You as an elder lesbian must have an opinion on the alleged transphobia of younger lesbians who will not accept male lesbians and girldick in their dating pool.
What do you say to these young lesbians who have broken away from Stonewall UK and gone to LGB Alliance in great numbers to argue - completely correctly in my opinion - that homosexuality is based on same SEX attraction?
I have no idea what a 'male lesbian' is.
I do have, decades long, strong links with women only spaces and organisations which are aimed at the Lesbian community. All are strong allies of TENI.
And in that time have known a great many people who have or currently are transitioning - MTF and FTM.
In the case of MTF - if they identify as lesbian they are welcome to use our services and feel safe in our (collective 'our' which includes them) spaces. End of story.
Each of the organisations has a strict no bullying/harassment policy - if some people have an issue with trans women who identify as lesbian being on the premises they are welcome to make a complaint privately to the management and it will be looked at, however - in one organisation an open community meeting/AGM the vote to have the spaces inclusive was unanimous 10 years ago and there is zero indication that is changing. Nor has a request to put a change to the vote ever been received.
In another - all Ireland but also used by people from UK- there has been an inclusivity policy for over 30 years, in that time there was one request for it to be put to the vote again 20 years ago - that request to vote was defeated by a vote of 280 to 2. Ironically the 2 who voted to have a vote to end inclusivity were from the UK.
There was an attempt in 2001 by the same 2 women (English but living in Ireland) to set up a cis Lesbian only space - despite much publicity etc it was an utter failure - not one other person used it.
If prior to transitioning as FTM a person had identified as lesbian we continue to support them for as long as they require it, because they are our friends - and yes, it has happened - this has never lasted for more than a few months while they adjust to negotiating the world in a new way.
In out of hours we enable groups like TENI and Gender Rebels to use our meeting rooms free of charge.
That is the state of play among the lesbian community in Ireland. We are organised, we run a great many events across the country, we are a relatively small community where everyone knows everyone else, and we inclusive by mutual consent. It has never been otherwise.
Our allies in the Gay Project in Cork have similar policies and also allow TENI and Gender Rebels access to meeting spaces.
In conjunction with Linc they facilitate a monthly support group for transgender people.
LGB Alliance is a transphobic organisation and one I, and none of the organisations I am involved with, support them.
And to those people who have 'gone to them' I say look at who else supports them - known neo-Nazis and homophobes. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/03/lgb-alliance-neo-nazi-homophobia-spinster-death-head-charity-commission/0 -
There's certain nuance of course. Everyone has to the right to politely decline. Though I do notice some people will put in their bios on certain apps a clear "I will not date X, Y, Z" when they have the option to simply swipe left on people they don't like , which I'd find quite crass at best. As in the only reason to put a megaphone in front of it is you those people to know they're unattractive as opposed to politely declining while respecting a person's feelings.
Many dating decisions are based on immutable characteristics. I'm a short man and many people only like tall men. C'est la vie.
I do not advocate that people be rude. When single if asked on a date by a man I did not find attractive I was always extremely polite and friendly and made every effort not to hurt them.
This does not affect the reality that many gay men do not regard transmen as being men for the purposes of dating and same with lesbians and transwomen. It is not phobic in any way. Though it does undermine the TWAW mantra which is why it is criticised.0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »I have no idea what a 'male lesbian' is.
I do have, decades long, strong links with women only spaces and organisations which are aimed at the Lesbian community. All are strong allies of TENI.
And in that time have known a great many people who have or currently are transitioning - MTF and FTM.
In the case of MTF - if they identify as lesbian they are welcome to use our services and feel safe in our (collective 'our' which includes them) spaces. End of story.
Each of the organisations has a strict no bullying/harassment policy - if some people have an issue with trans women who identify as lesbian being on the premises they are welcome to make a complaint privately to the management and it will be looked at, however - in one organisation an open community meeting/AGM the vote to have the spaces inclusive was unanimous 10 years ago and there is zero indication that is changing. Nor has a request to put a change to the vote ever been received.
In another - all Ireland but also used by people from UK- there has been an inclusivity policy for over 30 years, in that time there was one request for it to be put to the vote again 20 years ago - that request to vote was defeated by a vote of 280 to 2. Ironically the 2 who voted to have a vote to end inclusivity were from the UK.
There was an attempt in 2001 by the same 2 women (English but living in Ireland) to set up a cis Lesbian only space - despite much publicity etc it was an utter failure - not one other person used it.
If prior to transitioning as FTM a person had identified as lesbian we continue to support them for as long as they require it, because they are our friends - and yes, it has happened - this has never lasted for more than a few months while they adjust to negotiating the world in a new way.
In out of hours we enable groups like TENI and Gender Rebels to use our meeting rooms free of charge.
That is the state of play among the lesbian community in Ireland. We are organised, we run a great many events across the country, we are a relatively small community where everyone knows everyone else, and we inclusive by mutual consent. It has never been otherwise.
Our allies in the Gay Project in Cork have similar policies and also allow TENI and Gender Rebels access to meeting spaces.
In conjunction with Linc they facilitate a monthly support group for transgender people.
LGB Alliance is a transphobic organisation and one I, and none of the organisations I am involved with, support them.
And to those people who have 'gone to them' I say look at who else supports them - known neo-Nazis and homophobes. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/03/lgb-alliance-neo-nazi-homophobia-spinster-death-head-charity-commission/
Thanks for your answer.0 -
I do not advocate that people be rude. When single if asked on a date by a man I did not find attractive I was always extremely polite and friendly and made every effort not to hurt them.
This does not affect the reality that many gay men do not regard transmen as being men for the purposes of dating and same with lesbians and transwomen. It is not phobic in any way. Though it does undermine the TWAW mantra which is why it is criticised.
Well I don't have the time to read a lot of long winded blog posts and Twitter threads but pointing out there may be an element of that in why people call out people for being transphobic or racist or whatever for saying they won't date X.
Like a lot of people find people who are overweight unattractive and that's fine, they're entitled to do so but if I were to wear a sign round my neck that said "No fat chicks" and walked around town wearing it, I would most likely be subject to quite a bit of abuse and that abuse would be deserved. I imagine it's the same scenario when you start advertising your dating preferences unsolicited purely for the purpose of being rude and making other people feel unattractive. It's not racist or transphobic or whatever else to have those preferences, but going around advertising such is rude at best.0 -
Well I don't have the time to read a lot of long winded blog posts and Twitter threads but pointing out there may be an element of that in why people call out people for being transphobic or racist or whatever for saying they won't date X.
Like a lot of people find people who are overweight unattractive and that's fine, they're entitled to do so but if I were to wear a sign round my neck that said "No fat chicks" and walked around town wearing it, I would most likely be subject to quite a bit of abuse and that abuse would be deserved. I imagine it's the same scenario when you start advertising your dating preferences unsolicited purely for the purpose of being rude and making other people feel unattractive. It's not racist or transphobic or whatever else to have those preferences, but going around advertising such is rude at best.
We agree on not being rude.
And I think we agree genital preferences are not transphobic.
That's good.0 -
Well I don't have the time to read a lot of long winded blog posts and Twitter threads but pointing out there may be an element of that in why people call out people for being transphobic or racist or whatever for saying they won't date X.
Like a lot of people find people who are overweight unattractive and that's fine, they're entitled to do so but if I were to wear a sign round my neck that said "No fat chicks" and walked around town wearing it, I would most likely be subject to quite a bit of abuse and that abuse would be deserved. I imagine it's the same scenario when you start advertising your dating preferences unsolicited purely for the purpose of being rude and making other people feel unattractive. It's not racist or transphobic or whatever else to have those preferences, but going around advertising such is rude at best.
Yep, I’d agree with all of that honest response.
That’s the thing you see, I think mostly if not all of us here are decent people, we may think each other’s opinions are bat**** insane but we’re decent people.0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »I have no idea what a 'male lesbian' is.
I do have, decades long, strong links with women only spaces and organisations which are aimed at the Lesbian community. All are strong allies of TENI.
And in that time have known a great many people who have or currently are transitioning - MTF and FTM.
In the case of MTF - if they identify as lesbian they are welcome to use our services and feel safe in our (collective 'our' which includes them) spaces. End of story.
Each of the organisations has a strict no bullying/harassment policy - if some people have an issue with trans women who identify as lesbian being on the premises they are welcome to make a complaint privately to the management and it will be looked at, however - in one organisation an open community meeting/AGM the vote to have the spaces inclusive was unanimous 10 years ago and there is zero indication that is changing. Nor has a request to put a change to the vote ever been received.
In another - all Ireland but also used by people from UK- there has been an inclusivity policy for over 30 years, in that time there was one request for it to be put to the vote again 20 years ago - that request to vote was defeated by a vote of 280 to 2. Ironically the 2 who voted to have a vote to end inclusivity were from the UK.
There was an attempt in 2001 by the same 2 women (English but living in Ireland) to set up a cis Lesbian only space - despite much publicity etc it was an utter failure - not one other person used it.
If prior to transitioning as FTM a person had identified as lesbian we continue to support them for as long as they require it, because they are our friends - and yes, it has happened - this has never lasted for more than a few months while they adjust to negotiating the world in a new way.
In out of hours we enable groups like TENI and Gender Rebels to use our meeting rooms free of charge.
That is the state of play among the lesbian community in Ireland. We are organised, we run a great many events across the country, we are a relatively small community where everyone knows everyone else, and we inclusive by mutual consent. It has never been otherwise.
Our allies in the Gay Project in Cork have similar policies and also allow TENI and Gender Rebels access to meeting spaces.
In conjunction with Linc they facilitate a monthly support group for transgender people.
LGB Alliance is a transphobic organisation and one I, and none of the organisations I am involved with, support them.
And to those people who have 'gone to them' I say look at who else supports them - known neo-Nazis and homophobes. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/03/lgb-alliance-neo-nazi-homophobia-spinster-death-head-charity-commission/
informative reply, thank you.0 -
Thanks for your answer.
You are welcome.
In the interests of full disclosure I just recalled one occasion when a cis lesbian complained to me (I was the 'face of authority' that day) about another service user who is a trans woman. This was about 3 years ago
The complaint was "can you have a word with xxxx and ask her to stop asking us about make-up, showing us make-up, and generally expecting us to give a flying *** about make up cos it's melting our heads and it makes me want to leave when she's here?"
And I fully sympathized as I too had been bombarded with make-up related 'stuff' and was running out of ways to say "haven't a clue" politely and was veering towards "will you ever **** off with that s*ite do I look like I know about make-up*???"
So I had a word. The word was "only talk to people who are wearing make-up about make-up cos you are asking the wrong people about it".And xxxx thanked me, apologised for going on about it due to sheer enthusiasm.
When xxxx got her PPS card in her name the cis woman who had made the complaint brought in a box of donuts to celebrate.
And that is the best description I can give for how Irish cis lesbians generally feel about trans women.
*I actually know a lot about make-up having done it for fashion shows/films etc many any years ago as an art student. Doesn't mean I want to chat about it.0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »You are welcome.
In the interests of full disclosure I just recalled one occasion when a cis lesbian complained to me (I was the 'face of authority' that day) about another service user who is a trans woman. This was about 3 years ago
The complaint was "can you have a word with xxxx and ask her to stop asking us about make-up, showing us make-up, and generally expecting us to give a flying *** about make up cos it's melting our heads and it makes me want to leave when she's here?"
And I fully sympathized as I too had been bombarded with make-up related 'stuff' and was running out of ways to say "haven't a clue" politely and was veering towards "will you ever **** off with that s*ite do I look like I know about make-up*???"
So I had a word. The word was "only talk to people who are wearing make-up about make-up cos you are asking the wrong people about it".And xxxx thanked me, apologised for going on about it due to sheer enthusiasm.
When that xxxx got her PPS card in her name the cis woman who had made the complaint brought in a box of donuts to celebrate.
And that is the best description I can give for how Irish cis lesbians generally feel about trans women.
*I actually know a lot about make-up having done it for fashion shows/films etc many any years ago as an art student. Doesn't mean I want to chat about it.
I understand. I don't wear makeup as a straight woman, nor colour my hair nor have I ever worn high heels. Holding to gender expectations is not something I vibe with. Though feminine I am not a girly girl.
I have spoken about all these issues with lesbians in my immediate family. They have issues with any expectation or demand that transwomen are actual women, especially for the purposes of lesbian dating. One butch relative is particularly outspoken about autogynophilic males.
I follow quite a number of transpeople on social media and there are a few in particular I would love to meet as they are really cool. They do not subscribe to the ideology that transwomen are women. they acknolwedge that the reality is they are transwomen.
95% of transwomen have no surgery. I wish it was 100% as it is a terrible operation to impose upon the human body.
Self ID can be and is abused. Not necessarily by transpeople, but the logical incoherencies in it leave loop holes that are very difficult. People in positions of policy making grapple with this. I think it is legitimate to grapple with the inconsistencies.
You describe the social organisation of a lesbian community but do not address the issue of genital preference which is very much an active part of the transgender discussion currently. It is alright not to address it as it is a difficult subject. If a transwomen is not admitted by all lesbians to the lesbian dating pool then it undermines the statement that transwomen are women. same for gay men though they get less grief about exclusively liking male penises.
LGB Alliance has been defamed as a hate group by some but I do not believe it is. They have legitimate concerns and are supported and led and founded by long term activists in the homosexual community. They have a right to their opinion.0 -
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Sittingpretty wrote: »Out of interest are there any trans people on this thread?
Totally get if people would rather not sayowing to their privacy btw.
God, you’d really have to hope there’s not. For their sake.“It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis
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