Graham Linehan banned from twitter for questioning "trans ideology"

Stark

I have to say I found the laser focused obsession with genitals a bit weird tbh.

In most dating scenarios, you only get to see a person's genitals long after you've decided whether you're attracted to them or not. Anyone who's ever received an unsolicited dick pick on a dating app will tell you that they're not very attractive things on their own. How can your genital preferences define your sexual orientation when you're already having those feelings long before you see what's in a person's pants.

Quite a few of my straight friends have told me they knew innately they were attracted to women as soon as they hit puberty if not before but vaginas were "an acquired taste". It's quite common for men to hate giving oral sex. Others will love it. Both categories of men are heterosexual. Some people will enjoy analingus, some people will hate it. It's a preference but doesn't affect their sexuality.

I've not been with a transman personally but I have encountered a few who I have felt attraction towards like I've felt towards cis-men. I guess if it ever got as far as the bedroom, I might not like it as much as having dick to play with but it would be more akin to my 13 year straight friends dealing with genitals they're not used to for the first time rather than a complete reversal of my sexual orientation.

Stark

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

God, you’d really have to hope there’s not. For their sake.

At least I read a nice story today https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/transgender-cork-farmer-65-surprised-at-positive-response-to-telling-her-story-1.4295871

Bannasidhe

Gruffalox wrote: »

I understand. I don't wear makeup as a straight woman, nor colour my hair nor have I ever worn high heels. Holding to gender expectations is not something I vibe with. Though feminine I am not a girly girl.
I have spoken about all these issues with lesbians in my immediate family. They have issues with any expectation or demand that transwomen are actual women, especially for the purposes of lesbian dating. One butch relative is particularly outspoken about autogynophilic males.
I follow quite a number of transpeople on social media and there are a few in particular I would love to meet as they are really cool. They do not subscribe to the ideology that transwomen are women. they acknolwedge that the reality is they are transwomen.
95% of transwomen have no surgery. I wish it was 100% as it is a terrible operation to impose upon the human body.
Self ID can be and is abused. Not necessarily by transpeople, but the logical incoherencies in it leave loop holes that are very difficult. People in positions of policy making grapple with this. I think it is legitimate to grapple with the inconsistencies.

You describe the social organisation of a lesbian community but do not address the issue of genital preference which is very much an active part of the transgender discussion currently. It is alright not to address it as it is a difficult subject. If a transwomen is not admitted by all lesbians to the lesbian dating pool then it undermines the statement that transwomen are women. same for gay men though they get less grief about exclusively liking male penises.

LGB Alliance has been defamed as a hate group by some but I do not believe it is. They have legitimate concerns and are supported and led and founded by long term activists in the homosexual community. They have a right to their opinion.

I did not say there were not people with issues. I have said, which is the area I am familiar with, that when it comes to the community spaces that I am involved with in Ireland, the community has been unanimous in voting to have them be inclusive.

One could claim that cis women may be afraid to voice their concerns as they would be shut down - I have 2 answers to that i) if that were true than it demonstrates the majority favour inclusivity ii) anyone who thinks cis lesbians in a community meeting are afraid to voice their opinion has never been in a community meeting with lesbians (it's wise to bring sammiches and a flask.) I have seen war break out over whether people on S.W. should get a discount where people earning 100k a year felt they shouldn't.

As I have said before - my being a 'real' woman has been questioned to my face my times over the decades- not because someone thought I am trans but because I did not fit their definition. There are many 'categories' under the umbrella of "Woman" imo and trans woman is one of them, as is butch woman, femme woman, sporty woman, tall woman, white woman, black woman etc.

What is this dating pool nonsense?

If a person isn't attracted to a trans women they are not attracted to a trans women - plenty people are. Some people are attracted to another person regardless of whether they are cis or trans. I know one trans woman who is bating people off with a stick as frankly she is drop dead gorgeous by any of the standards applied to 'femininity".

I personally have never met a trans person I am attracted to but then I also have never met a really tall person I am attracted to - or a German person I am attracted to... I have met many trans, tall, and German people.

I was once accused of being racist for turning down a dance when asked - my Afro-Caribbean/Geordie girlfriend at the time made her opinion of that comment loudly known. Some people don't deal well with rejection. Ask any woman - straight/lesbian/cis/trans- who has rejected a man's advances how many times they were insulted by said man.

If LGB Alliance is not a hate group they need to publicy distance themselves from their neo-nazi and homophobic supporters - that have failed to do so.

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I did not say there were not people with issues. I have said, which is the area I am familiar with, that when it comes to the community spaces that I am involved with in Ireland, the community has been unanimous in voting to have them be inclusive.

One could claim that cis women may be afraid to voice their concerns as they would be shut down - I have 2 answers to that i) if that were true than it demonstrates the majority favour inclusivity ii) anyone who thinks cis lesbians in a community meeting are afraid to voice their opinion has never been in a community meeting with lesbians (it's wise to bring sammiches and a flask.) I have seen war break out over whether people on S.W. should get a discount where people earning 100k a year felt they shouldn't.

As I have said before - my being a 'real' woman has been questioned to my face my times over the decades- not because someone thought I am trans but because I did not fit their definition. There are many 'categories' under the umbrella of "Woman" imo and trans woman is one of them, as is butch woman, femme woman, sporty woman, tall woman, white woman, black woman etc.

What is this dating pool nonsense?

If a person isn't attracted to a trans women they are not attracted to a trans women - plenty people are. Some people are attracted to another person regardless of whether they are cis or trans. I know one trans woman who is bating people off with a stick as frankly she is drop dead gorgeous by any of the standards applied to 'femininity".

I personally have never met a trans person I am attracted to but then I also have never met a really tall person I am attracted to - or a German person I am attracted to... I have met many trans, tall, and German people.

I was once accused of being racist for turning down a dance when asked - my Afro-Caribbean/Geordie girlfriend at the time made her opinion of that comment loudly known.

If LGB Alliance is not a hate group they need to publicy distance themselves from their neo-nazi and homophobic supporters - that have failed to do so.

Butch, femme, sporty, tall, white, black are adjectives applied to the ontological category of woman that do not qualify the category, which is adult human female. They are descriptors.

I know there are gorgeous looking transwomen and transmen. That is not relevant. I know there are people who are attracted to transpeople. Usually bisexual people. 85% of people in this survey say they would not date a trans person. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0265407518779139

The cotton ceiling is a real thing in lesbian circles whereby lesbians are berated for genital preferences and to feign surprise about this ''dating pool nonsense'' is to be disingenuous.

Bannasidhe

Gruffalox wrote: »

The cotton ceiling is a real thing in lesbian circles whereby lesbians are berated for genital preferences and to feign surprise about this ''dating pool nonsense'' is to be disingenuous.

Look, it is hardly my problem if my experience as a very active participant in the Irish lesbian community for going on 40 years doesn't agree with what you think is happening in that community.

I am telling you that lesbian community organisations/events in Ireland all have policies of inclusivity. And that includes the ones that are self financing. The few that tried - many many many years ago - to cater to cis women only folded through lack of support.

Many lesbians are also berated for disliking hirsute women - or women who completely wax - or butch women or women who do/do not wear make-up.

Lesbians berate lesbians continually. It's a thing. A nasty thing, but a thing nonetheless.

Lesbians are opinionated and don't shy away from expressing those opinions and having a good old argument.

Lesbians also do relationship dramas better than anyone else.

Yet - it is still an inclusive and supportive community for trans women who identify as lesbian.

What is disingenuous is that you believe you know better than me and are lecturing me about my community. Such arrogance.

I wouldn't dream of telling any cis straight woman what the dynamics are in her community as I don't have a notion - and I hear conflicting things from cis straight friends - if I was to listen to some of them cis straight women don't like men very much. Apparently many of them married 'useless, lazy, stupid eejits, but that's men for ya'. And all I do is shug as I don't know. Many men seem quite useful and intelligent from what I've seen.

Gruffalux

Im opinionated too and dont shy away from expressing my opinions. Maybe Im a lesbian

LLMMLL

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yes, I again see the conflation of rare events from other countries to stir up the FUD factor here in Ireland, despite that fact that no difficulties have arisen here in the five years of self-ID.

BTW, there are many, many rocks that I've left unturned here. But if you'd like to turn over any rocks yourself, you're welcome to do so. Let's not play the silenced victim card here please.

There's a reason they don't want to "turn over" that rock and it's.not because we wouldn't want them to.

It's because they are clearly.implying that trans people in general are more likely to be sexual criminals.

It's basically the same as blaming all black people for the high proportion of black people in US prisons.

Please turn over the rock Gruffalox. I'd be happy to debate this with you.

Bannasidhe

Gruffalox wrote: »

Im opinionated too and dont shy away from expressing my opinions. Maybe Im a lesbian

That's something only you can work out for yourself.
You get to self ID.

LLMMLL

Gruffalox wrote: »

I am not a silenced victim - much to your discomfort

And yet again we see a poster who has taken their user name from a US cop show and probably discusses BLM and endemic racism and has uttered the word Trump more times in the past few years than is reasonable and listens to International music and watches shows from abroad and still repeatedly tells us on this single issue we may not look outside our own picket fence. LOL, as the youth say these days. I won't be stopping using international precedence on this issue.

You can use "international precedence" all you want. And we can all ignore it because in a society of 5 million people that has had self id for years there has been no issue.

LLMMLL

Sittingpretty wrote: »

We’re not all the phobics we’re being painted as here. It’s easier to shout “TERF!” and “transphobe” from the rooftops than it is to address (without obfuscation, clearly and succinctly )any of the questions in this thread that have been put to those who support the trans women are the same as women agenda.

I voted yes for marriage equality and I fully support it. As I do transgender rights.

But don’t try to whitewash me with trans women are the same as women nonsense being peddled in this thread.

I think a lot of the anti trans activists would have been homophobic in their youth. Times have changed. People who used to be homophobic are a lot less homophobic now. It's not that the homophobes from 10 years ago died and were replaced by less homophobic young people.

There are anti-trans people now who in 10 years will be looking back slightly embarrassed at their former opinions.

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That's something only you can work out for yourself.
You get to self ID.

Yes, I could identify as a different sexual orientation and get over my shuddering about other ladies fannies, I suppose, and be a lesbian but no matter how much I identify as a man I cannot change my sex. No one can.

LLMMLL

Sittingpretty wrote: »

So if a man identifies as a lesbian should other lesbians be attracted to him?

Is it transphobic for them not to want to see his penis as a vagina or if he is transitioned completely should they be attracted to what is a surgeon’s impression of a vagina?

Should they find it feels, smells, tastes the same? Is it transphobic not to? She is a woman after all.

Or is it their lesbian minds and not their bodies that are making love when they get it on?

Is a cis man who dates a transwomen not straight?

TomTomTim

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think a lot of the anti trans activists would have been homophobic in their youth.

Jesus. I'd consider the vast majority of people in here, not including myself, to be pretty progressive posters. It's so cheap to throw labels as such around, but it's the go to for people like yourself. Did you notice that the other side aren't doing the same thing to you? Even though there's plenty of ammo if they were willing.

LLMMLL

FVP3 wrote: »

Anyway I've worked out the literary theory logic about tables here, and for that I am grateful.

A table cant be defined exactly as a table, so therefore a transwoman is a woman.


Makes perfect sense to me.

I notice you never replied to my last criticism of your table definition. You basically couldn't define it exclusively.

You are actually right. A table is just a table. We learn the concept by seeing examples.and we attach a name to the concept. If anyone asks for a definition we try and sum up the common characteristics but of course we can't fully capture the concept because non-exclusive definiton can fully capture the concept.

Bannasidhe

Gruffalox wrote: »

Yes, I could identify as a different sexual orientation and get over my shuddering about other ladies fannies, .

Going by your posts you do seem a bit fixated on people's genitals. Is that all attraction is to you?
Whether or not you shudder at the other person's genitalia?

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Going by your posts you do seem a bit fixated on people's genitals. Is that all attraction is to you?
Whether or not you shudder at the other person's genitalia?

My attraction to any woman it is platonic. Sexual attraction involves genitals, yes. How is this odd?

Bannasidhe

Sittingpretty wrote: »

I didn’t say you said them, now did I. I said on this thread. That’s not exclusively you.

And no, I don’t deny that. I’m sure it was one of the many weak and ultimately failed arguments used against marriage equality.

Hardly a rant now in fairness.

Then quote someone who did say those things. If people did so on this thread you wouldn't have had any difficulty in finding one.
Or don't quote anyone at all.

You quoted me which is a way of responding to something I said.

LLMMLL

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have no idea what a 'male lesbian' is.

I do have, decades long, strong links with women only spaces and organisations which are aimed at the Lesbian community. All are strong allies of TENI.

And in that time have known a great many people who have or currently are transitioning - MTF and FTM.
In the case of MTF - if they identify as lesbian they are welcome to use our services and feel safe in our (collective 'our' which includes them) spaces. End of story.

Each of the organisations has a strict no bullying/harassment policy - if some people have an issue with trans women who identify as lesbian being on the premises they are welcome to make a complaint privately to the management and it will be looked at, however - in one organisation an open community meeting/AGM the vote to have the spaces inclusive was unanimous 10 years ago and there is zero indication that is changing. Nor has a request to put a change to the vote ever been received.

In another - all Ireland but also used by people from UK- there has been an inclusivity policy for over 30 years, in that time there was one request for it to be put to the vote again 20 years ago - that request to vote was defeated by a vote of 280 to 2. Ironically the 2 who voted to have a vote to end inclusivity were from the UK.
There was an attempt in 2001 by the same 2 women (English but living in Ireland) to set up a cis Lesbian only space - despite much publicity etc it was an utter failure - not one other person used it.




If prior to transitioning as FTM a person had identified as lesbian we continue to support them for as long as they require it, because they are our friends - and yes, it has happened - this has never lasted for more than a few months while they adjust to negotiating the world in a new way.

In out of hours we enable groups like TENI and Gender Rebels to use our meeting rooms free of charge.


That is the state of play among the lesbian community in Ireland. We are organised, we run a great many events across the country, we are a relatively small community where everyone knows everyone else, and we inclusive by mutual consent. It has never been otherwise.

Our allies in the Gay Project in Cork have similar policies and also allow TENI and Gender Rebels access to meeting spaces.

In conjunction with Linc they facilitate a monthly support group for transgender people.

LGB Alliance is a transphobic organisation and one I, and none of the organisations I am involved with, support them.

And to those people who have 'gone to them' I say look at who else supports them - known neo-Nazis and homophobes. https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/03/lgb-alliance-neo-nazi-homophobia-spinster-death-head-charity-commission/

Great post. This is the truth of the matter once you move away from Twitter. People just trying to help and support other people in an inclusive manner.

Bannasidhe

Sittingpretty wrote: »

So if a man identifies as a lesbian should other lesbians be attracted to him?

Is it transphobic for them not to want to see his penis as a vagina or if he is transitioned completely should they be attracted to what is a surgeon’s impression of a vagina?

Should they find it feels, smells, tastes the same? Is it transphobic not to? She is a woman after all.

Or is it their lesbian minds and not their bodies that are making love when they get it on?

Do all lesbians play sports?
Do all lesbians shave their armpits?
Are all lesbians left-wing?
Do lesbians eat meat??
Do all lesbians want to be Megan Rapinoe?
Do all lesbians want to have sex with Megan Rapinoe?
Does Megan Rapinoe want to have sex with Megan Rapinoe?


These and other questions where someone will answer for all lesbians everywhere in the world because they are all the same not coming to an AMA on a site near you soon.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

TomTomTim wrote: »

Jesus. I'd consider the vast majority of people in here, not including myself, to be pretty progressive posters. It's so cheap to throw labels as such around, but it's the go to for people like yourself. Did you notice that the other side aren't doing the same thing to you? Even though there's plenty of ammo if they were willing.

I’m happy for that disparity to be so neatly highlighted, to be honest. It’s very telling. Let people continue to score own goals, I say.

Bannasidhe

Gruffalox wrote: »

My attraction to any woman it is platonic. Sexual attraction involves genitals, yes. How is this odd?

You speak as if it is the only factor.

Do you think a person cannot be attracted to someone who does not have functioning genitals?

Stark

Gruffalox wrote: »

My attraction to any woman it is platonic. Sexual attraction involves genitals, yes. How is this odd?

For most people it generally involves a comprehensive package of things. Certain things in that package being negotiable or non-negotiable depending on the person. Genitals are one component of the package, but for most people not the entire package.

As someone attracted to men, I wouldn't find a transwomen attractive just because she has a penis because the entire rest of the package would be wrong for me. I'd be more likely to find transmen attractive because they have the masculinity attributes I'm attracted to. I'm sure as a straight women you're not going to go dating transwomen because "yay, penis, that's all I'm looking for!".

LLMMLL

TomTomTim wrote: »

Jesus. I'd consider the vast majority of people in here, not including myself, to be pretty progressive posters. It's so cheap to throw labels as such around, but it's the go to for people like yourself. Did you notice that the other side aren't doing the same thing to you? Even though there's plenty of ammo if they were willing.

There's a difference between being progressive now and being progressive 10/20 years ago.

It's pretty clear that many people who are now perfectly ok with gay people were homophobic in their youth. I know MANY such people.

Gruffalux

Stark wrote: »

For most people it generally involves a comprehensive package of things. Certain things in that package being negotiable or non-negotiable depending on the person. Genitals are one component of the package, but for most people not the entire package.

I honestly believe that getting the sex you want with the genitals you like is a really big part of most people's sexual relationships. I don't know how this could possibly be weird or why some people are saying I am weird for saying this.

Loving someone after their genitals stop working or are damaged or they are sick is different.

Bannasidhe

LLMMLL wrote: »

There's a difference between being progressive now and being progressive 10/20 years ago.

It's pretty clear that many people who are now perfectly ok with gay people were homophobic in their youth. I know MANY such people.

I have many in my own family.
Nary a homophobe to be found now but 20 years ago, vocal condemnation freely offered.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Stark wrote: »

For most people it generally involves a comprehensive package of things. Certain things in that package being negotiable or non-negotiable depending on the person. Genitals are one component of the package, but for most people not the entire package.

A non-negotiable part of the package for most people though, to use your own term.

Gruffalox wrote: »

I honestly believe that getting the sex you want with the genitals you like is a really big part of most people's sexual relationships. I don't know how this could possibly be weird or why some people are saying I am weird for saying this.

Loving someone after their genitals stop working or are damaged or they are sick is different.

I know. It’s really bizarre.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

There's a difference between being progressive now and being progressive 10/20 years ago.

It's pretty clear that many people who are now perfectly ok with gay people were homophobic in their youth. I know MANY such people.

Were you homophobic in your youth? Did you ever make a gay joke?

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Were you homophobic in your youth? Did you ever make a gay joke?

I wasn't actually though we did make gay jokes. In 4th-6th class we commonly called.each other "queers" and "bumchums". I had no idea what the terms meant though I knew it was something you did not want to be. I had zero concept of a man being either sexually or romantically interested in another man. I thought "bumchums" were two men who for some reason liked to put their bums against each other.

Bannasidhe

Gruffalox wrote: »

I honestly believe that getting the sex you want with the genitals you like is a really big part of most people's sexual relationships. I don't know how this could possibly be weird or why some people are saying I am weird for saying this.

Loving someone after their genitals stop working or are damaged or they are sick is different.

I didn't say you were weird.
I said it looks like you place most emphasis on genitals.

People can and do have loving relationships without sex by the way.
Richard Coles and his husband were celibate. Brian sadly passed away and I defy you to say Richard isn't a broken hearted man who has lost his life partner. Their relationship was not sexual.

There are people who cannot have sex due to injury/disability. Many are in loving relationships.

Yes, sex can be a very important part of a relationship but it isn't the whole deal. There are couples who have amazing sex but fail in the other aspects of a relationship.

To reduce adult human relationships down to genitals seems reductive to me.

Gruffalux

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I didn't say you were weird.
I said it looks like you place most emphasis on genitals.

People can and do have loving relationships without sex by the way.
Richard Coles and his husband were celibate. Brian sadly passed away and I defy you to say Richard isn't a broken hearted man who has lost his life partner. Their relationship was not sexual.

There are people who cannot have sex due to injury/disability. Many are in loving relationships.

Yes, sex can be a very important part of a relationship but it isn't the whole deal. There are couples who have amazing sex but fail in the other aspects of a relationship.

To reduce adult human relationships down to genitals seems reductive to me.

Sigh. Seriously. Anecdotal stories of fond platonic friends. I have never said genitals are the sole basis of sexual relations - but they are pretty bloody important. I really do think the vast majority of people would agree with me on that even if they think I am a transphobic monster. The word sexual relationship implies that sex is important!! If you don't like how the person smells, or talks, or jokes, or behaves then of course it is not going to work. But you can love a persons sense of humour, smell, appearance and if you do not jibe with their sexy bits then it is not a sexual relationship. I can't quite believe we are at the place where we have to redefine sexual relationships in order to accommodate a definition of transwomen as women and transmen as men.