Graham Linehan banned from twitter for questioning "trans ideology"

ELM327

Stark wrote: »

You don't think it's a serious issue?

Transgendered people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the general population.

https://www.hrc.org/blog/new-study-reveals-shocking-rates-of-attempted-suicide-among-trans-adolescen
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6798808/
https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/transgender-people-suicide/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth


But sure, just dismiss them as being "hysterical".

No one said hysterical.
Just that it should not be a decision taken by a child. Legally the age of consent is 18. You cannot be held accountable to a contract signed before that date, therefore, for such a life altering matter, that age should apply here too.

Stark

ELM327 wrote: »

The left certainly wouldnt want the latter, it doesnt suit their agenda.

BS. No-one wants people to accidentally make life altering decisions that are wrong for them. There is no "agenda".

ELM327 wrote:

No one said hysterical.
Just that it should not be a decision taken by a child. Legally the age of consent is 18. You cannot be held accountable to a contract signed before that date, therefore, for such a life altering matter, that age should apply here too.

Obviously parents and doctors are involved too. I've no doubt it's an unenviable position for people who's first responsibility is to "do no harm". But I don't think any of us have had to deal with a child who's in distress over the changes happening to their body so don't think any of us can really appreciate the factors that go into making such decisions.

Certainly if there's a real threat of suicide, and I don't accept the accusations that those who threaten to do so are "lying to get their way", then doctors/parents may decide that the trade-offs of puberty blockers are worth it to buy themselves some time.

ELM327

Stark wrote: »

BS. No-one wants people to accidentally make life altering decisions that are wrong for them. There is no "agenda".



Obviously parents and doctors are involved too. I've no doubt it's an unenviable position for people who's first responsibility is to "do no harm". But I don't think any of us have had to deal with a child who's in distress over the changes happening to their body so don't think any of us can really appreciate the factors that go into making such decisions.

Or just, you know, leave it till the child is a legal adult and responsible enough to make their own decisions

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Stark wrote: »

You don't think it's a serious issue?

Transgendered people are way more likely to attempt suicide than the general population.

https://www.hrc.org/blog/new-study-reveals-shocking-rates-of-attempted-suicide-among-trans-adolescen
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6798808/
https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/transgender-people-suicide/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth


But sure, just dismiss them as being "hysterical".

It’s very serious. But my question would be why are many transgender people suicidal? I’ve never known a suicide where the reasons weren’t incredibly complex. How many people does transition help? What about detransitioners? What feelings are they left with? What are their suicide stats?

It’s also very irresponsible to almost glamourise suicide. You may scoff but suicide contagion has been studied. Not in a transgender context, in a wider societal context.

Stark

ELM327 wrote: »

Or just, you know, leave it till the child is a legal adult and responsible enough to make their own decisions

And how do you manage the situation in the interim years? Do you have better solutions that simply "suck it up?".

ELM327

Stark wrote: »

And how do you manage the situation in the interim years? Do you have better solutions that simply "suck it up?".

How do you manage any scenario?
Counselling, medication, appropriate medical intervention.

Stark

This is starting to remind me of the abortion debates. "Just strap her down and medicate her for 9 months if becomes an issue".

What happens when the above are insufficient and the changes happening to a person's body continue to be too much for that person to deal with? This is something that doctors and parents have to deal with and none of us have had to deal with so I don't see how we're in a position to say that puberty blockers are wrong in all cases.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Stark wrote: »

And how do you manage the situation in the interim years? Do you have better solutions that simply "suck it up?".

If a teenager regrets their decision to start transitioning, they may have to live with the consequences of that for the rest of their life. Many of the changes are permanent. Are they to “suck it up”?

I read a Twitter thread by a mother whose daughter extricated herself from transitioning during lockdown. She felt freed from the path she had started down in her early teens. Lockdown was the catalyst. She didn’t know how to tell anyone before that that she felt stuck on the transition track. No doubt you’ll dismiss this but it made for interesting reading to me at least.

Akesh

Stark wrote: »

Obviously parents and doctors are involved too. I've no doubt it's an unenviable position for people who's first responsibility is to "do no harm". But I don't think any of us have had to deal with a child who's in distress over the changes happening to their body so don't think any of us can really appreciate the factors that go into making such decisions.

Certainly if there's a real threat of suicide, and I don't accept the accusations that those who threaten to do so are "lying to get their way", then doctors/parents may decide that the trade-offs of puberty blockers are worth it to buy themselves some time.

I would be of the mind that you can do what you want when you're 18, as at that age you have a small bit of personal responsibility but as you say, when the threat of suicide is real, what are we supposed to do? It would be better to make a life changing mistake than to lose a life.

It's an awful situation and it's not one that can be addressed with facts bar ruling out the dangers/side-effects of some of the treatments involved.

ELM327

Stark wrote: »

This is starting to remind me of the abortion debates. "Just strap her down and medicate her for 9 months if becomes an issue".

What happens when the above are insufficient and the changes happening to a person's body continue to be too much for that person to deal with? This is something that doctors and parents have to deal with and none of us have had to deal with so I don't see how we're in a position to say that puberty blockers are wrong in all cases.

Well that's BS because I am pro choice, in favor of termination up to birth.

Stark

ODB wrote:

I read a Twitter thread by a mother whose daughter extricated herself from transitioning during lockdown. She felt freed from the path she had started down in her early teens. Lockdown was the catalyst. She didn’t know how to tell anyone before that that she felt stuck on the transition track. No doubt you’ll dismiss this but it made for interesting reading to me at least.

At least provide a link.

As someone who couldn't even face the thought of getting a tattoo, I can appreciate how terrifying the thought of making a bad decision around transitioning can be. But any stats I've seen show that those who regret transitioning are a tiny minority compared to the number of people it's helped. And of the tiny minority who regretted it, it was mainly due to society not accepting their new gender as opposed to unhappiness with their bodies.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Stark wrote: »

At least provide a link.

As someone who couldn't even face the thought of getting a tattoo, I can appreciate how terrifying the thought of making a bad decision around transitioning can be. But any stats I've seen show that those who regret transitioning are a tiny minority compared to the number of people it's helped. And of the tiny minority who regretted it, it was mainly due to society not accepting their new gender as opposed to unhappiness with their bodies.

It’s weeks ago. I haven’t a notion what the Twitter handle is. If that means you think I’m fabricating it, so be it. I’ll try and find it but don’t know if I will.

An academic at Bath Spa University had his funding taking away for a study into detransitioning because the university feared backlash from transgender rights activists. What I want to know is, why would there be a backlash? If these activists are comfortable in their position, what are they afraid of? Shouldn’t research back them up?

But that the university feared a backlash is telling.

Stark

ELM327 wrote: »

Well that's BS because I am pro choice, in favor of termination up to birth.

Well as a pro-choice advocate you can probably appreciate that you can never get a man to truly understand what's going through a woman's mind when she loses control over her body through pregnancy. What really tipped the balance during the referendum campaign was men putting aside their mistrust and saying to themselves "well this many women can't be lying to us about the distress it causes so let's trust that they're being honest even we can't experience that ourselves". Despite there being plenty of women who were willing to say "don't trust those pro-choice women, they're lying to suit their agenda". I feel similar when transgender people tell me that the body changes associated with being "the wrong gender" are too much for them to cope with. As a cis-person, I can't truly understand as I'll never experience that. But I can take their word for it that not all of them are lying or playing up the distress to suit an agenda.

ELM327

Stark wrote: »

Well as a pro-choice advocate you can probably appreciate that you can never get a man to truly understand what's going through a woman's mind when she loses control over her body through pregnancy. What really tipped the balance during the referendum campaign was men putting aside their mistrust and saying to themselves "well this many women can't be lying to us about the distress it causes so let's trust that they're being honest even we can't experience that ourselves". Despite there being plenty of women who were willing to say "don't trust those pro-choice women, they're lying to suit their agenda". I feel similar when transgender people tell me that the body changes associated with being "the wrong gender" are too much for them to cope with. As a cis-person, I can't truly understand as I'll never experience that. But I can take their word for it that not all of them are lying or playing up the distress to suit an agenda.

Exactly, I'm pro individual rights to bodily autonomy. But there needs to be some age limitation. For instance, if you had a 16 year old applying for euthanasia you would dismiss it out of hand. Same as a 16 year old asking for a vasectomy.

18 is a good bar.

Stark

Well euthanasia is "assisted suicide" so wouldn't exactly be a suicide prevention option. I'm not sure every case should be dismissed out of hand either. If an underage person is in severe distress from end-stage terminal illness, then they should probably have the same palliative care options as someone over 18. But that's getting way off topic and should be a thread of its own. And since when is someone becoming suicidal because they can't get a vasectomy been an issue?

AndrewJRenko

ELM327 wrote: »

We don't allow 14 year olds to smoke, drink, sign contracts or consent to sex. Yet they should be allowed make a medical decision which impacts the rest of their life?


It should absolutely be time limited to 18 years old.

And yet, many teenagers do all of the above, except the contract signing, whether they are allowed or not. Time to get real.

AndrewJRenko

ELM327 wrote: »

Exactly, I'm pro individual rights to bodily autonomy. But there needs to be some age limitation. For instance, if you had a 16 year old applying for euthanasia you would dismiss it out of hand. Same as a 16 year old asking for a vasectomy.

18 is a good bar.

Same for abortion then - 18 as the bar?

ELM327

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And yet, many teenagers do all of the above, except the contract signing, whether they are allowed or not. Time to get real.

Contract signing is the key one.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Same for abortion then - 18 as the bar?

No. Abortion is clearly an urgent time limited issue. You've only got 12 weeks (10 really, as the first 2 dont count, as it is date from lmp as opposed to conception).

ELM327

Stark wrote: »

Well euthanasia is "assisted suicide" so wouldn't exactly be a suicide prevention option. I'm not sure every case should be dismissed out of hand either. If an underage person is in severe distress from end-stage terminal illness, then they should probably have the same palliative care options as someone over 18. But that's getting way off topic and should be a thread of its own. And since when is someone becoming suicidal because they can't get a vasectomy been an issue?

So, "I'm going to kill myself" is the golden key?

AndrewJRenko

ELM327 wrote: »

Contract signing is the key one.

No. Abortion is clearly an urgent time limited issue. You've only got 12 weeks (10 really, as the first 2 dont count, as it is date from lmp as opposed to conception).

And puberty is not time limited?

Stark

ELM327 wrote:

No. Abortion is clearly an urgent time limited issue. You've only got 12 weeks (10 really, as the first 2 dont count, as it is date from lmp as opposed to conception).

Not really. You could force the child to go to term. (And would have before Repeal the 8th). No time limits there.

ELM327 wrote: »

So, "I'm going to kill myself" is the golden key?

And we're back to dismissing suicidal ideation as a serious issue.

ELM327

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And puberty is not time limited?

A friend of a friend transitioned in their late 20's.
I wasnt aware puberty avoidance was a limitation.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Well that's BS because I am pro choice, in favor of termination up to birth.

Is that really your opinion?

AndrewJRenko

ELM327 wrote: »

A friend of a friend transitioned in their late 20's.
I wasnt aware puberty avoidance was a limitation.

A friend of mine gave me their baby up for adoption after birth. Is 'birth avoidance' a limitation?

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that really your opinion?

Go read any of the abortion threads here and search for my posts.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

A friend of mine gave me their baby up for adoption after birth. Is 'birth avoidance' a limitation?

Great straw man.

Stark

ELM327 wrote: »

Great straw man.

It's hardly a strawman. It's been the de facto response to crisis pregnancies for decades. Just as people are now trying to advocate a "suck it up till you turn 18" approach to crisis puberty situations.

ELM327

Stark wrote: »

It's hardly a strawman. It's been the de facto response to crisis pregnancies for decades. Just as people are now trying to advocate a "suck it up till you turn 18" approach to crisis puberty situations.

You can't have crisis puberty, where you can have crisis pregnancy. There is no correlation.

Stark

ELM327 wrote: »

You can't have crisis puberty, where you can have crisis pregnancy. There is no correlation.

And here we go with "all transgender people are lying".

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Stark wrote: »

It's hardly a strawman. It's been the de facto response to crisis pregnancies for decades. Just as people are now trying to advocate a "suck it up till you turn 18" approach to crisis puberty situations.

What do you think about teenagers who regret transitioning but are left with permanently altered bodies?

suicide_circus

If abortions carried out on minors were done using off label experimental drugs which had unknown consequences for their future fertility, then perhaps a correlation could be drawn alright.