Should the Right to Own Property be Removed?

cnocbui

They need to remove the section of the constitution that confers a right to own property, because it's an absolute nonsense of a notion in the face of all the caveats and restrictions that are already imposed, let alone the others people want to impose.

Property tax, Planning provisions, Airbnb bans, vacant tax, SAC status - you don't own property, you take on a near limitless set of conditions and obligations. The government and society has far more say over what you can do with property you supposedly own than you do.



Mod Note

Split from the Property Market 2020 discussion.

Baby01032012

I guess you’re attempting to be sarcastic. You don’t actually mean remove it but in face of all the government controls introduced recently you’re saying it might as well be removed?

If above is not what you meant it might not go down well in a landlord forum.

Fundamental article of the constitution will never be removed, although I agree with legislation over last few years and what is to come has effectively removed property owners rights

Gumbo

Baby01032012 wrote: »

If above is not what you meant it might not go down well in a landlord forum.

It’s just as well the OP didn’t post in a Landlord forum then, isint it.

Baby01032012

I was typing quickly I meant a property forum frequented/supported largely by posters such as myself.

GoneHome

I don't know if you, OP, are for or against it but I know as someone living in rural Ireland in a very isolated area of Co Limerick, owning our own house is sacrosanct to us, especially during the lockdown having the security of our own place was beyond precious

ampleforth

Well, then pay rent and enjoy your freedom from ownership

Strumms

After that, do we prevent people from owning cars ? Prevent people from spending over a certain amount on weekly shopping ? Prevent people from taking more than one holiday a year ?

GoneHome

Strumms wrote: »

After that, do we prevent people from owning cars ? Prevent people from spending over a certain amount on weekly shopping ? Prevent people from taking more than one holiday a year ?

China, look where that got us

L1011

Strumms wrote: »

After that, do we prevent people from owning cars ? Prevent people from spending over a certain amount on weekly shopping ? Prevent people from taking more than one holiday a year ?

there's a difference between removing a constitutional right to do something and actually banning it.

However, the right in the constitution already has exceptions. The OP appears to be proposing some form of optics manoeuvre of resentment; nothing else.

The right is not absolute, hence the other restrictions can be and are in place.

mrslancaster

ampleforth wrote: »

Well, then pay rent and enjoy your freedom from ownership

who would you pay rent to?

are you saying all property/buildings/land should be owned by the state?

ampleforth

Strumms wrote: »

After that, do we prevent people from owning cars ? Prevent people from spending over a certain amount on weekly shopping ? Prevent people from taking more than one holiday a year ?

I don't think OP was more than frustrated at that moment...

Home ownership in IE is not too bad, compared with the US where in some states you pay 1000s of $ in council tax each year. Every country has a need for planning permissions but I find that in IE it is often just about getting on with your neighbour (as always). Planning permissions are a tool for some to project power, but politics often works like that.

OP should do a comparison with a few other places and draw his/her own conclusion though.

cnocbui

Baby01032012 wrote: »

I guess you’re attempting to be sarcastic. You don’t actually mean remove it but in face of all the government controls introduced recently you’re saying it might as well be removed?

If above is not what you meant it might not go down well in a landlord forum.

Fundamental article of the constitution will never be removed, although I agree with legislation over last few years and what is to come has effectively removed property owners rights

Yes I was being sarcastic, but I'm quite serious about removing it from the constitution as it serves little to no purpose.

biko

The right to own property is the basis for everything else.
There is no society where this isn't a rule.

I suppose in the old communist countries the state owned everything, but that's all gone now.

cnocbui

ampleforth wrote: »

I don't think OP was more than frustrated at that moment...

Home ownership in IE is not too bad, compared with the US where in some states you pay 1000s of $ in council tax each year. Every country has a need for planning permissions but I find that in IE it is often just about getting on with your neighbour (as always). Planning permissions are a tool for some to project power, but politics often works like that.

OP should do a comparison with a few other places and draw his/her own conclusion though.

The OP has owned property overseas, which might be why he has drawn the conclusions he has.

ampleforth

biko wrote: »

The right to own property is the basis for everything else.
There is no society where this isn't a rule.

I suppose in the old communist countries the state owned everything, but that's all gone now.

Not gone, but we can see what is produced. The Soviet Union managed to starve more people through state-run chaos during peace times than other states actively killed while engaging in a major war --- quite an accomplishment in its own right...

I think having a few rights is probably a good thing.

ampleforth

cnocbui wrote: »

The OP has owned property overseas, which might be why he has drawn the conclusions he has.

I wonder if there are reports that compare property ownership conditions, even if just for Europe. Would be an interesting read!

Yellow_Fern

L1011 wrote: »

there's a difference between removing a constitutional right to do something and actually banning it.

However, the right in the constitution already has exceptions. The OP appears to be proposing some form of optics manoeuvre of resentment; nothing else.

The right is not absolute, hence the other restrictions can be and are in place.

I think the article in our constitution is the right to own. This is absolute as far as I understand. I guess you could argue otherwise using the social justice clause but I dont think that is the spirit of the document. I think its more that on some rare occasions property may be used or taken, not the right to own taken.

ampleforth wrote: »

I wonder if there are reports that compare property ownership conditions, even if just for Europe. Would be an interesting read!

It would be interesting. One of the main challenges to this right is the criminal assets bureau which really gets away with murder. Same in other countries.

Pkiernan

GoneHome wrote: »

I don't know if you, OP, are for or against it but I know as someone living in rural Ireland in a very isolated area of Co Limerick, owning our own house is sacrosanct to us, especially during the lockdown having the security of our own place was beyond precious

But you're being selfish. You should have to let poor people live in your house.

ampleforth

Pkiernan wrote: »

But you're being selfish. You should have to let poor people live in your house.

Selfishness does often precede generosity. Somebody with nothing cannot give anything to anybody, and may therefore also be called selfish simply by not having the potential to give.

Dav010

Pkiernan wrote: »

But you're being selfish. You should have to let poor people live in your house.

Someone who saved to buy a home and pays a mortgage for it is not being selfish by wanting to enjoy their own home without lodgers.

coolbeans

The OP seems to resent the fact that the right to property ownership also comes with responsibilities. Ireland is far from the most burdensome in this respect. Even the UK has a far more onerous council tax regime and in the US it varies by state.

ampleforth

coolbeans wrote: »

The OP seems to resent the fact that the right to property ownership also comes with responsibilities. Ireland is far from the most burdensome in this respect. Even the UK has a far more onerous council tax regime and in the US it varies by state.

I would add that IE has a very fair system regarding ownership. We have seen how difficult it actually is for a bank to take somebodies home with many banks charging others for the risk of some not paying off their part. I do not think that the property tax is high at all.

Pkiernan

But... but...homeless crisis ....evil landlords....Trump...

ampleforth

Pkiernan wrote: »

But... but...homeless crisis ....evil landlords....Trump...

I wonder what people complained about 30, 100, or 500 years ago Of course I get your sarcasm

Rubberchikken

I own my home. Fully paid for.
I don't care if others are without the ability to buy or own their own home. I will never share my home with strangers and wouldn't appreciate any politician or anyone else for that matter telling me I should just to help the homeless.

I've 3 bedrooms and even if I had 33 you couldn't convince me that it's selfish not to share.

The amount of begrudgery towards homeowners is pathetic.

I see sheep

How about the Right to Own Property being realised before it's discarded?

Marcusm

Dav010 wrote: »

Someone who saved to buy a home and pays a mortgage for it is not being selfish by wanting to enjoy their own home without lodgers.

I think you’re missing the sarcasm in Mr Kiernan’s posts; he’s certainly not in favour of the enforced communal ownership of property from his general posting.

Spanish Eyes

To be fair to OP, the rights of ownership of property that is let out is largely gone now anyway.

Our family know this re my late relative who avoided drawing down the Fair Deal by renting out her house. What a fkn nightmare that turned out to be when relative passed away and I as executor needed to sell the property to divvy out the proceeds. I don't think I have fully recovered from the trauma to this day, (but I have lol).

Tenant refused to move until she got the house she wanted beside her mother in the inner City. It took twelve months or so to get her out, and on the day she was to move, she refused, because the Council had not put in her new flooring or windows yet. And yes RTB were involved, we got a Determination Order, but hey ho, nobody cared really because our next call would have been to the courts for eviction, at some cost. It worked out eventually, but was fkn traumatic, I can tell you that. The entitlement culture is alive and well for tenants getting a council funded house for sure. They know every angle.

I just do not know how anyone could rent out their property anymore. There is nothing advantageous about it. But I know not all tenants are so entitled either, and many landlords are sound too. It is the process.

Forgive my rant, sorry. Unless you have been through it, you won't understand.

Marcusm

coolbeans wrote: »

The OP seems to resent the fact that the right to property ownership also comes with responsibilities. Ireland is far from the most burdensome in this respect. Even the UK has a far more onerous council tax regime and in the US it varies by state.

The burden of the UK’s council tax regime is bizarrely related to the level of commercial rates in the particular borough. Over 4 properties across 3 London boroughs, my council tax in the most valuable property (Westminster) was only 25% of the cost in the cheapest property (Southwark). Likewise, US states which have an income tax and significant sales tax often have low property taxes. Those which rely solely on property taxes are often unliveable for middle class people.

Spanish Eyes

Rubberchikken wrote: »

I own my home. Fully paid for.
I don't care if others are without the ability to buy or own their own home. I will never share my home with strangers and wouldn't appreciate any politician or anyone else for that matter telling me I should just to help the homeless.

I've 3 bedrooms and even if I had 33 you couldn't convince me that it's selfish not to share.

The amount of begrudgery towards homeowners is pathetic.

You are dead right there my friend. It is the only thing many have control over nowadays. Wish you well. We are in the same position, a kind of big house, kids gone and all that, but will/would NEVER have strangers living with us now. Feck that.

I do realise that for those starting out, letting out rooms tax free is a godsend, but it's not for everyone. And it won't happen globally under Gov dictact either I think. We are paying enough as it is to house those who cannot or will not fund themselves.

ampleforth

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

To be fair to OP, the rights of ownership of property that is let out is largely gone now anyway.

Our family know this re my late relative who avoided drawing down the Fair Deal by renting out her house. What a fkn nightmare that turned out to be when relative passed away and I as executor needed to sell the property to divvy out the proceeds. I don't think I have fully recovered from the trauma to this day, (but I have lol).

Tenant refused to move until she got the house she wanted beside her mother in the inner City. It took twelve months or so to get her out, and on the day she was to move, she refused, because the Council had not put in her new flooring or windows yet. And yes RTB were involved, we got a Determination Order, but hey ho, nobody cared really because our next call would have been to the courts for eviction, at some cost. It worked out eventually, but was fkn traumatic, I can tell you that. The entitlement culture is alive and well for tenants getting a council funded house for sure. They know every angle.

I just do not know how anyone could rent out their property anymore. There is nothing advantageous about it. But I know not all tenants are so entitled either, and many landlords are sound too. It is the process.

Forgive my rant, sorry. Unless you have been through it, you won't understand.

I think it would all be better if renting would become an exception and people would be able to buy a home just like buying a car (even if just for a year or two) and sell again should the location not suit any more. I am not talking about cash buying, but about moving property around and releasing it rather than having have a culture of renting that is expensive for everybody.