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How hostile will the new government be for Waterford?
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This cork centric government is bad for the south east - just by default resources and development will get priority for cork hospitals, airport, port and infrastructure. Meaning far less of the crumbs for anyone else.
The airport development in particular looks vulnerable as cork airport has long struggled for passengers even pre Covid.0 -
Again, there is no ‘downgrade’ of ardkeen. It’s tin hat stuff to think that not getting an unsafe service is a downgrade.
So the hospital be changed from being the regional hospital to being part of the South/Southwest hospital group along with the complete loss of autonomy and budget that went with it wasn’t a downgrade? UHW has lost funding, services, staff and beds since the change0 -
spaceCreated wrote: »If they're 65 minutes and the limit then they are 5 minutes outside the zone and services need to be provided so they're in the 60 minutes. I don't think theres any crime in having more coverage than what is the absolute baseline. Cutting a lot of the admin staff for starters, we have 4 times the amount of admin staff in the hse than nhs and they think they have far too many.
Its not a priority over mental health, they should be both be adequately resourced, which they aren't.
It should be resourced properly because it is either the biggest or second biggest killer for a long time now, competing with cancer, which should also be better resourced.
Ah - that old chestnut. Where’s that data snd which staff would you cut? Consultant secretaries? Ward clerks? Outpatient administration managers?
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/health-and-social-care-bill/mythbusters/nhs-managers
Yeah - everything should be properly resourced. But back on planet earth - which should be prioritised, how much will it cost and who will pay for it?
I’m surprised you’re not calling for a Reintroduction of cancer services in Waterford. Ireland has had significantly improving rates of cancer diagnosis and surgical and outcomes after the introduction of centres of excellence. Which Waterford didn’t want. Do you want to go back to higher cancer rates so that you can have w local service0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Im lead to belive,that the consultant cardilogist in ardkeen had a heart attack late 2019 early 2020 and whitfield has been covering since??
?
You're led to believe wrong.
As for the mobile cath lab, I'm not 100% but I know from late last year (pre any Covid) it was scheduled for a planned closure for essential maintenance and upgrades.
Don't always believe everything you are "led to believe". It's usually spread by people who don't really know and are exaggerating the actual facts or down right making something up.0 -
JimWinters wrote: »So the hospital be changed from being the regional hospital to being part of the South/Southwest hospital group along with the complete loss of autonomy and budget that went with it wasn’t a downgrade? UHW has lost funding, services, staff and beds since the change
It’s still a regional hospital.
UHW is a constituent hospital of the Group. A joint seat at the table with the other hospitals in the group to ensure standardisation of care.
Pleas provide evidence of lost funding, lost services, lost staff and lost beds since 2013.
This fascination of autonomy. Do you think a public service paid by the tax payer can have full autonomy and do what they want? Who will hold them accountable? Should UHW decide what services they wish to deliver and not follow government policy as set out by the DoH. You do know it’s the hospitals job to carry our government to policy. Where will UHW get money to deliver whatever service they wish in their fulfilment of their autonomy.
Next year will see the reintroduction of the regional health authority. If you don’t like the groups, you won’t like this. But thankfully your opinion isn’t needed.0 -
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Mary Butler won't be seen again after yesterday so I don't see the government doing anything worthwhile for our county.0
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For those that think there won't be hostility towards the South East:
"Separately Cork Airport said it did not believe there was a viable case for a proposed increase in the subvention to Waterford Airport given it had not operated any commercial flight for several years."
From this article of May 2020
We're screwed0 -
It’s still a regional hospital.
UHW is a constituent hospital of the Group. A joint seat at the table with the other hospitals in the group to ensure standardisation of care.
Pleas provide evidence of lost funding, lost services, lost staff and lost beds since 2013.
This fascination of autonomy. Do you think a public service paid by the tax payer can have full autonomy and do what they want? Who will hold them accountable? Should UHW decide what services they wish to deliver and not follow government policy as set out by the DoH. You do know it’s the hospitals job to carry our government to policy. Where will UHW get money to deliver whatever service they wish in their fulfilment of their autonomy.
Next year will see the reintroduction of the regional health authority. If you don’t like the groups, you won’t like this. But thankfully your opinion isn’t needed.
It’s not a joint seat at the table, they are not equal partners. The South/Southwest hospital group decides on funding and priorities for UHW, it has overseen a significant reduction in standards, cleanliness and services while Cork’s lot has improved. The regional health authority is another disaster in the offing, do you think they are a positive step?
One example of services moving to Cork, we both know it won’t return: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/waterford-hospital-not-to-accept-new-urology-referrals-for-six-months-1.4181157
There are others but I cannot put my hand on them at the minute.
Also, I cannot find the stats on staff number reductions which I have seen somewhere before. You can see the effects of it in this article in the News & Star last year: https://waterford-news.ie/2019/12/09/the-most-understaffed-hospital-in-the-country/#.Xvi28iXTWEc
UHW has a staff to bed ratio of 3.57 while CUH is 4.98, that’s a massive difference.
You seem to have a good knowledge in the area, if you don’t mind me asking, do you work in the hospital group?0 -
JimWinters wrote: »It’s not a joint seat at the table, they are not equal partners. The South/Southwest hospital group decides on funding and priorities for UHW, it has overseen a significant reduction in standards, cleanliness and services while Cork’s lot has improved. The regional health authority is another disaster in the offing, do you think they are a positive step?
One example of services moving to Cork, we both know it won’t return: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/waterford-hospital-not-to-accept-new-urology-referrals-for-six-months-1.4181157
There are others but I cannot put my hand on them at the minute.
Also, I cannot find the stats on staff number reductions which I have seen somewhere before. You can see the effects of it in this article in the News & Star last year: https://waterford-news.ie/2019/12/09/the-most-understaffed-hospital-in-the-country/#.Xvi28iXTWEc
UHW has a staff to bed ratio of 3.57 while CUH is 4.98, that’s a massive difference.
You seem to have a good knowledge in the area, if you don’t mind me asking, do you work in the hospital group?
They just doing same as CIE with the trains,running it into the ground.to justify further downgrading/potential.closing
This is known as "strave the beast" type funding0 -
Ah - that old chestnut. Where’s that data snd which staff would you cut? Consultant secretaries? Ward clerks? Outpatient administration managers?
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/health-and-social-care-bill/mythbusters/nhs-managers
Yeah - everything should be properly resourced. But back on planet earth - which should be prioritised, how much will it cost and who will pay for it?
I’m surprised you’re not calling for a Reintroduction of cancer services in Waterford. Ireland has had significantly improving rates of cancer diagnosis and surgical and outcomes after the introduction of centres of excellence. Which Waterford didn’t want. Do you want to go back to higher cancer rates so that you can have w local service
Do you just sue the same phrase over and over again? So every other health service can get by with far far far far less admins than we do.... yet we definitely can't cut any seems to be what you're saying? When did I say that the UK had too many admin staff, i think it funny that the NHS can and does manage with a fraction of admin staff than the hse does. This is a good indication of where our priorities lie https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-hires-3-times-more-office-staff-than-nurses-468746.html
Can you stick with the topic that was discussed as per the cardiac care and address those issues before brining in another bag of worms. I'd like to see you address the other arguments by me or anyone else...0 -
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E38E3E38E3EE33 wrote: »For those that think there won't be hostility towards the South East:
"Separately Cork Airport said it did not believe there was a viable case for a proposed increase in the subvention to Waterford Airport given it had not operated any commercial flight for several years."
From this article of May 2020
We're screwed
But why do we even need an airport in Waterford.....we dont.
Wexford, Kilkenny, Wicklow, Carlow, Tipp have no airport to speak yet they are doing ok. Why do some Waterford people obsess with the idea of us having an airport. We dont need an airport and that has been proven time and time again.
Even when the airport was operational it was too expensive to fly out of. I remember looking to book a flight to London from our airport and the cost was too high for a return flight. Travelling to and flying out of Dublin was cheaper than flying out of our own airport.0 -
Another thing they'll go for is tolling the M9. They're bitter about it.0
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You’re being silly now. The health budget has increased year on year for decades. Services don’t close - they change where they are provided. There’s no removal of services in Waterford as far as I’m aware. Not getting a second lab is not the same as a downgrade. Unless you have an inferiority complex.
It's shocking to see someone with such a sesquipedalian way of posting (and who is so happy to lower themselves to impugning others' posting based on minor errors), display such a glaring gap in their knowledge...
You keep saying "inferiority complex" but the context you're using it in makes it pretty clear you actually mean "persecution complex"... :pac:
I'm putting it down to your superiority complex. :rolleyes:0 -
alta stare wrote: »But why do we even need an airport in Waterford.....we dont.
Wexford, Kilkenny, Wicklow, Carlow, Tipp have no airport to speak yet they are doing ok. Why do some Waterford people obsess with the idea of us having an airport. We dont need an airport and that has been proven time and time again.
Even when the airport was operational it was too expensive to fly out of. I remember looking to book a flight to London from our airport and the cost was too high for a return flight. Travelling to and flying out of Dublin was cheaper than flying out of our own airport.
Really bad troll attempt.
Stop being poor.0 -
E38E3E38E3EE33 wrote: »Really bad troll attempt.
Stop being poor.
Good one. You must of used up your bullsh!t qouta today if that is all you got0 -
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alta stare wrote: »But why do we even need an airport in Waterford.....we dont.
Wexford, Kilkenny, Wicklow, Carlow, Tipp have no airport to speak yet they are doing ok. Why do some Waterford people obsess with the idea of us having an airport. We dont need an airport and that has been proven time and time again.
Even when the airport was operational it was too expensive to fly out of. I remember looking to book a flight to London from our airport and the cost was too high for a return flight. Travelling to and flying out of Dublin was cheaper than flying out of our own airport.
Precisely to increase and support access to those counties!
Fair enough Dublin for me is accessible but Waterford airport is nearer and would bring many obvious benefits. Sadly I think Covid has buried it for another while. Unless things majorly change and that threat goes away0 -
alta stare wrote: »Why would they toll the M9?
To raise revenues and cover it up as a “green” tax.0 -
Precisely to increase and support access to those counties!
Fair enough Dublin for me is accessible but Waterford airport is nearer and would bring many obvious benefits. Sadly I think Covid has buried it for another while. Unless things majorly change and that threat goes away
An airport in Waterford is not viable hence why the idea of one never really got anywhere. It takes an hour and twenty to get from Waterford City to Dublin Airport. Less from Kilkenny and Wexford. No way an airport will ever be successful here.0 -
JimWinters wrote: »It’s not a joint seat at the table, they are not equal partners. The South/Southwest hospital group decides on funding and priorities for UHW, it has overseen a significant reduction in standards, cleanliness and services while Cork’s lot has improved. The regional health authority is another disaster in the offing, do you think they are a positive step?
One example of services moving to Cork, we both know it won’t return: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/waterford-hospital-not-to-accept-new-urology-referrals-for-six-months-1.4181157
There are others but I cannot put my hand on them at the minute.
Also, I cannot find the stats on staff number reductions which I have seen somewhere before. You can see the effects of it in this article in the News & Star last year: https://waterford-news.ie/2019/12/09/the-most-understaffed-hospital-in-the-country/#.Xvi28iXTWEc
UHW has a staff to bed ratio of 3.57 while CUH is 4.98, that’s a massive difference.
You seem to have a good knowledge in the area, if you don’t mind me asking, do you work in the hospital group?
No I don’t work in the HG.
You can’t compare staff to bed ratios as there is a wide variety of services, expertises and clinical/non-clinical staff. Cork is the only hospital in the country with every speciality. It has always been a regional hospital. Waterford is a general hospital. They don’t have the same services.
Is there discrepancies across the country - of course there is. UHL have a quarter less docs and half the number of HSCPs pro rata when compared to Beaumont, for the same catchment area as Beaumont and quarter less the beds. But Beaumont have twice the average length of stay. I can sing you a song from every hospital in every part of the country. The answer is that we need a national response to health which means a strategic plan of what services and what staff should go where, based on a finite budget. Someone is gonna ‘lose out’ as they see it. They can ‘fight’ for local services but the HSE has to provide a national service and that is extremely challenging as I hope you would agree. Especially with competing interests, single issue agendas and political interference. All with the continuing problem that people won’t pay more for services or accept that some services will move and will be better for it.
I made comment earlier on cancer centres of excellence. Where’s all the noise now? So many lives have been saved. Does Waterford want a service back that cannot provide the same outcomes for its citizens.
I don’t know what is happening with no new urology referrals. It appears as simple as getting through the backlog. But I do know that there’s no one in a room plotting to downgrade a hospital. Can I ask - why do you think they want to downgrade the hospital? What is the nefarious reason?
The RHA will be a positive step. It’s essentially back to the Integrated Service Area of Prof Drumm era in 2008 which was abandoned because the docs wanted the hospital groupings to align with the universities. News flash - not all clinical staff are angels. Some are out for themselves.
UHW is a constituent hopsital of the group. The group is tasked with implementing the service plan as laid out by government ie gov policy. No group - or hospital - or any public service really has the control over finances and services that you think.
Sure wasn’t the group lead front and centre with Waterford colleagues, and others, on the first report on cardiac services. Doesn’t sound like an attempt to downgrade the service. Seems like your argument is gone with that point.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/top-consultants-reject-south-east-cardiac-services-report-35061854.html0 -
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Precisely to increase and support access to those counties!
Fair enough Dublin for me is accessible but Waterford airport is nearer and would bring many obvious benefits. Sadly I think Covid has buried it for another while. Unless things majorly change and that threat goes away
You can rest assured,if it was galway...theyd work to keep airport open (indeed the kerry has one too)
And there would be no talk of downgrading hospideals or putting tolls on existing roads going there....how is that?0 -
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spaceCreated wrote: »Do you just sue the same phrase over and over again? So every other health service can get by with far far far far less admins than we do.... yet we definitely can't cut any seems to be what you're saying? When did I say that the UK had too many admin staff, i think it funny that the NHS can and does manage with a fraction of admin staff than the hse does. This is a good indication of where our priorities lie https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-hires-3-times-more-office-staff-than-nurses-468746.html
Can you stick with the topic that was discussed as per the cardiac care and address those issues before brining in another bag of worms. I'd like to see you address the other arguments by me or anyone else...
I have stuck with the argument and I have addressed the points.
Others brought up the same old myths hence why I said ‘ah that old Chestnut’.
The NHS doesn’t have ‘a fraction’ of the admin staff that we have. Read the kings fund doc again and you’ll see that they are severely under represented in that area. You’ll also see how incredibly different it is to measure admin/management staff. You can say non-clinical of course but you’ll accept that there are w range of jobs needing doing - charts, filing, ict, hr etc. It’s the biggest organisation in the country by far. It’s in every facet of life from cradle to grave in every twin city and parish, employs the most people, spends the most money than any government department. Across all healthy and social care services.
You probably don’t know but the NHS does not include social care - so there’s one very good reason as to why there is less admin staff in the NHS. So keep going with the myth but it’s not true. Wards need more clerks, consultants need more clerical staff, nursing management need more clerical staff, there’s more foi staff needed, more ict staff needed, more hr staff needed.
Is there room for improvement - too right there is. Is ther me waste - to right there is. But is there too many non-clinical staff - no, just not in the right place.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »You can rest assured,if it was galway...theyd work to keep airport open (indeed the kerry has one too)
And there would be no talk of downgrading hospideals or putting tolls on existing roads going there....how is that?
Have I got this right. You think that Ireland needs an international airport in Belfast, one in Connaught (knock), one in Leinster and four in Munster (Shannon, Kerry, cork and Waterford).0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »You can rest assured,if it was galway...theyd work to keep airport open (indeed the kerry has one too)
And there would be no talk of downgrading hospideals or putting tolls on existing roads going there....how is that?
Where is all this talk of tolling the M9?
Do the government favour Galway airport? If they do then why is it closed? Sure they dont need one either as Shannon is so close.
Kerry is a tourist hotspot, an airport would be viable there. Unfortunately Waterford isnt as big as a draw as Kerry. That isnt the governments fault.
There is a toll on the motorway to Galway from Dublin.0 -
No I don’t work in the HG.
You can’t compare staff to bed ratios as there is a wide variety of services, expertises and clinical/non-clinical staff. Cork is the only hospital in the country with every speciality. It has always been a regional hospital. Waterford is a general hospital. They don’t have the same services.
Is there discrepancies across the country - of course there is. UHL have a quarter less docs and half the number of HSCPs pro rata when compared to Beaumont, for the same catchment area as Beaumont and quarter less the beds. But Beaumont have twice the average length of stay. I can sing you a song from every hospital in every part of the country. The answer is that we need a national response to health which means a strategic plan of what services and what staff should go where, based on a finite budget. Someone is gonna ‘lose out’ as they see it. They can ‘fight’ for local services but the HSE has to provide a national service and that is extremely challenging as I hope you would agree. Especially with competing interests, single issue agendas and political interference. All with the continuing problem that people won’t pay more for services or accept that some services will move and will be better for it.
I made comment earlier on cancer centres of excellence. Where’s all the noise now? So many lives have been saved. Does Waterford want a service back that cannot provide the same outcomes for its citizens.
I don’t know what is happening with no new urology referrals. It appears as simple as getting through the backlog. But I do know that there’s no one in a room plotting to downgrade a hospital. Can I ask - why do you think they want to downgrade the hospital? What is the nefarious reason?
The RHA will be a positive step. It’s essentially back to the Integrated Service Area of Prof Drumm era in 2008 which was abandoned because the docs wanted the hospital groupings to align with the universities. News flash - not all clinical staff are angels. Some are out for themselves.
UHW is a constituent hopsital of the group. The group is tasked with implementing the service plan as laid out by government ie gov policy. No group - or hospital - or any public service really has the control over finances and services that you think.
Sure wasn’t the group lead front and centre with Waterford colleagues, and others, on the first report on cardiac services. Doesn’t sound like an attempt to downgrade the service. Seems like your argument is gone with that point.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/top-consultants-reject-south-east-cardiac-services-report-35061854.html
Thanks for your well reasoned response.
I absolutely agreed, there should be a national plan based on facts and needs. I have a problem when there’s political interference in reports used to formulate national plans. I also have a problem with politicians changing the hospital groups in effect to dismantle Waterford as a very effective centre of excellence for cancer and cardiology among other services.
Mary Roche had enormous foresight when she emerged from the meeting on changing the hospital groups in 2011. Many of her worries have come to pass in the 8 years since: http://cllrmaryroche.blogspot.com/2012/11/notes-from-wrh-meeting-tonight-11112.html?m=1
Regarding cancer treatment, Waterford was a great cancer unit, there’s a link to the hiqa report on Mary’s blog. It should have remained the centre of excellence for the region for 500,000 people.
The main difference here is that cardiac care is time critical. Patients from the southeast cannot get to an open Cath Lab within the required 90 minutes from the cardiac events. The critical mass exists in the region to support a cardiac centre in Waterford and the case is clear for it. This is why the top cardiologists rejected the report as you mentioned in your link.0 -
JimWinters wrote: »Thanks for your well reasoned response.
I absolutely agreed, there should be a national plan based on facts and needs. I have a problem when there’s political interference in reports used to formulate national plans. I also have a problem with politicians changing the hospital groups in effect to dismantle Waterford as a very effective centre of excellence for cancer and cardiology among other services.
Mary Roche had enormous foresight when she emerged from the meeting on changing the hospital groups in 2011. Many of her worries have come to pass in the 8 years since: http://cllrmaryroche.blogspot.com/2012/11/notes-from-wrh-meeting-tonight-11112.html?m=1
Regarding cancer treatment, Waterford was a great cancer unit, there’s a link to the hiqa report on Mary’s blog. It should have remained the centre of excellence for the region for 500,000 people.
The main difference here is that cardiac care is time critical. Patients from the southeast cannot get to an open Cath Lab within the required 90 minutes from the cardiac events. The critical mass exists in the region to support a cardiac centre in Waterford and the case is clear for it. This is why the top cardiologists rejected the report as you mentioned in your link.
We’ll have to wait for the DoH report which is due soon. I don’t doubt that all cath labs should be 24/7 - but that might mean making Corks bigger and having ambulance/air ambulance services to reduce time.
This is also not a ‘Waterford’ thing. This year government will have to decide where the national trauma centre will be. Everyone of the main four dublin hospitals, and probably other hospitals will lose out. Burns may leave sjh, spine may leave Mater, neurosurg may leave Beaumont. But patients will get better care of they are managed in the right place with the right service.
Dublin doesn’t need 9 EDs - it needs one.
All of this does not mean we need less beds, we don’t we need more. But we don’t need more specialities in every hospital - we need to address the specific areas in specific places - like two trauma centreA in Ireland, and the common stuff everywhere, regard and Cardioreap, and the medium stuff in a few places (cath lab, cancer services etc). All with a workforce plan for all staff - clinical and non-clinical.0 -
barneystinson wrote: »It's shocking to see someone with such a sesquipedalian way of posting (and who is so happy to lower themselves to impugning others' posting based on minor errors), display such a glaring gap in their knowledge...
You keep saying "inferiority complex" but the context you're using it in makes it pretty clear you actually mean "persecution complex"... :pac:
I'm putting it down to your superiority complex. :rolleyes:
Fantastic word!!!! I’m gonna use that. Never use a big word when a diminutive one would suffice.
Yes, I think you’re correct that I mean ‘persecution complex’ But I’ll argue that you need an inferiority complex first before you get a persecution complex.
It’s not a superiority complex - I get frustrated by all this single issue, regional focussed commentary. There is no one out to get waterford. The world is bigger than Waterford.
There just seems to be this collective inferiority complex / persecution complex among Waterford people that I find interesting but frustrating.
Mortality rates are within norms - if it better in Waterford than in other counties.
https://statbank.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/saveselections.asp0 -
Have I got this right. You think that Ireland needs an international airport in Belfast, one in Connaught (knock), one in Leinster and four in Munster (Shannon, Kerry, cork and Waterford).
Waterford barely tallies as Munster proper it would serve the south Leinster area mainly plus east Waterford.
SNN, cork, Kerry aren’t especially viable and are always struggling. One more centrally located airport would have made sense but as usual in Munster everyone had to have their own0 -
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alta stare wrote: »An airport in Waterford is not viable hence why the idea of one never really got anywhere. It takes an hour and twenty to get from Waterford City to Dublin Airport. Less from Kilkenny and Wexford. No way an airport will ever be successful here.
No more or less than any of the others. If Waterford had a fully functional airport you’d get a lot of people south of Naas that would use it for the convenience factor and choice. That would work both ways0
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