How hostile will the new government be for Waterford?

Harry Palmr

My sister and her now husband are as modern middle class as you can get but they were living over the brush when their child was born!

Maybe Rathdown is the oddity.

thomasdylan

There are 2 24 hour cath labs in Dublin not 21. There's 24 hour PCI in the Mater and James'.

ryan1990

thomasdylan wrote: »

There are 2 24 hour cath labs in Dublin not 21. There's 24 hour PCI in the Mater and James'.

21 cath labs in Dublin. I thought I read that there were 21 24/7 labs in Dublin but I obviously read that there are 21 cath labs there - still significant as I think there's only one in the south-east

thomasdylan

ryan1990 wrote: »

21 cath labs in Dublin. I thought I read that there were 21 24/7 labs in Dublin but I obviously read that there are 21 cath labs there - still significant as I think there's only one in the south-east

Half of them are private. The Mater private, Bons Secors, Svuh private, Blackrock clinic would all have cath labs.

Svuh, Beaumont, the Mater and James are the hospitals with public cath labs.

azimuth17

I don't know where ryan 1990 is getting figures from and I am sure many others will ask for sources. The post contains some fairly wild statements in my view but I am open to correction on any set of stats. Statements about crime rates etc will need referencing. Statements about affluent areas etc, unemployment the same. A post of this size should have included sources for the claims made. It reads like opinion rather than fact and there is no clarity about what Waterford you are writing of, the city or the county or the totality. I don't believe you are sure on this point. I am sure that there are pockets of disadvantage in Waterford city and in many other places across the land, but taking small areas and smalls samples has its own problems.

Small point: I understand that Kilkenny College, like Newtown School in Waterford is fee paying for boarders, but no longer is for for day pupils.

Big point: I don't know where county income figures are from and would again appreciate a source please. Latest CSO data (released 27th Feb 2020) says Waterford county (which is the city and county combined) average disposable income is (2017) 92.29% of national average whereas Kilkenny is lower at 89.28% of national average? This translates into € 19179 disposable per person in Waterford versus €18494 disposable income per person per annum in Kilkenny.
Total income per person in Waterford is 88% (€25,724 pa) of national average versus 86.6% (€25,333) in Kilkenny, so your estimate/figure of €45000 pa in Kilkenny versus €35000 pa in Waterford seems completely wrong.For comparison total income in Galway per person is €26,061 pa per person.

I detect a little bit of inferiority complex peeping out of the post. The grass is not always greener on the northern banks of the Suir and it would be as well in my view to understand that income in south Kilkenny for example is heavily influenced by income from Waterford. the two counties are symbiotic in that context. We certainly have difficulties, but when they are being explored, accuracy and detail is of paramount importance.

ryan1990

azimuth17 wrote: »

I don't know where ryan 1990 is getting figures from and I am sure many others will ask for sources. The post contains some fairly wild statements in my view but I am open to correction on any set of stats. Statements about crime rates etc will need referencing. Statements about affluent areas etc, unemployment the same. A post of this size should have included sources for the claims made. It reads like opinion rather than fact and there is no clarity about what Waterford you are writing of, the city or the county or the totality. I don't believe you are sure on this point. I am sure that there are pockets of disadvantage in Waterford city and in many other places across the land, but taking small areas and smalls samples has its own problems.

Small point: I understand that Kilkenny College, like Newtown School in Waterford is fee paying for boarders, but no longer is for for day pupils.

Big point: I don't know where county income figures are from and would again appreciate a source please. Latest CSO data (released 27th Feb 2020) says Waterford county (which is the city and county combined) average disposable income is (2017) 92.29% of national average whereas Kilkenny is lower at 89.28% of national average? This translates into € 19179 disposable per person in Waterford versus €18494 disposable income per person per annum in Kilkenny.
Total income per person in Waterford is 88% (€25,724 pa) of national average versus 86.6% (€25,333) in Kilkenny, so your estimate/figure of €45000 pa in Kilkenny versus €35000 pa in Waterford seems completely wrong.For comparison total income in Galway per person is €26,061 pa per person.

I detect a little bit of inferiority complex peeping out of the post. The grass is not always greener on the northern banks of the Suir and it would be as well in my view to understand that income in south Kilkenny for example is heavily influenced by income from Waterford. the two counties are symbiotic in that context. We certainly have difficulties, but when they are being explored, accuracy and detail is of paramount importance.

If pointing out a few truths gives me an inferiority complex then so be it.

I was referring to the median household income. Kilkenny averages €45,000 comparable to Waterford's €39,000, Tipperary's €39,000 and Wexford's €38,000 - sources:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/households-in-malahide-enjoy-highest-incomes-in-state-1.3932426

https://www.thejournal.ie/cso-malahide-4690048-Jun2019/

To be honest I don't know much about the schools - I think Newtown is much smaller than Kilkenny College though.

I was referring to the south-east as a whole but Waterford City in particular - hence why I compared Waterford City to Galway City.

Source re Waterford having the highest rate of court appearances for violent crimes:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/irelands-violent-crime-capitals-reveal-5245071#:~:text=Limerick%20has%20the%20nation's%20highest,with%20four%20per%20100%2C000%20each.

Back-up source:

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2018/0906/991972-waterford-is-the-most-dangerous-county-for-gardai/

The crime rate fluctuates however Waterford's crime rate seems always to be above the national average. This can only be said for counties Waterford, Limerick, Louth and Dublin.

Other sources re high crime rates in Waterford:

https://www.her.ie/life/revealed-the-most-dangerous-and-the-safest-places-to-live-in-ireland-31409

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/dublin-s-north-inner-city-has-highest-crime-rate-in-the-state-1.4036601

Sources re Waterford City having the highest unemployment rate of all Irish cities:

https://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/pressreleases/2012pressreleases/pressreleasethisisireland-highlightsfromcensus2011part2/#:~:text=This%20census%2Dbased%20rate%2C%20which,rate%20at%2017.4%20per%20cent.

https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/newsevents/documents/census2016summaryresultspart2/Census_2016_Summary_Results_%E2%80%93_Part_2.pdf

Source re Waterford (the entire county) having the highest unemployment rate of the 26 counties:

https://www.thejournal.ie/employment-ireland-3445102-Jun2017/

Source re over 10% of the country's population live in affluent areas - comparable to approximately 1% in Waterford:

https://www.lenus.ie/bitstream/handle/10147/584057/Waterford+County.pdf?sequence=1

Source re 10-15% of the country's population live in disadvantaged areas. This includes villages such as Cappoquin, Tallow, Lemybrien, Kilmacthomas, Portlaw, Clashmore etc:

https://maps.pobal.ie/WebApps/DeprivationIndices/index.html

Source re Waterford having the highest divorce rate:

https://waterfordnow.ie/news/waterford-has-highest-rate-of-divorces-in-entire-country-new-figures/

Source re Waterford having the most babies born out of wedlock:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/almost-60-babies-born-waterford-13172023

I'll need a minute to find the other sources

azimuth17

ryan1990 wrote: »

as a county – Waterford has the highest crime rate (a lot of which is drugs-related continuing the tendency for unemployed young men to turn to drugs). The crime rate in Waterford is now six times higher than areas such as Wicklow, Meath and south-west Cork. .

The Irish Times reported the national crime reports per Garda division in a long article on Wed Oct 2nd 2019 complete with charts.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/dublin-s-north-inner-city-has-highest-crime-rate-in-the-state-1.4036601

The Waterford Garda division is the county and city of Waterford. It had a headline crime rate of 487 crimes per 10,000 people versus a national average of 459 crimes per 10,000 people. The lowest figures were in the Cork West division with 207 crimes per 10,000 people. Wicklow had 357 crimes per 10,000 people. Despite what looks like a post written with good intent and high;lighting some obvious truths, I think you have a little bit of explaining to do?

ryan1990

azimuth17 wrote: »

The Irish Times reported the national crime reports per Garda division in a long article on Wed Oct 2nd 2019 complete with charts.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/dublin-s-north-inner-city-has-highest-crime-rate-in-the-state-1.4036601

The Waterford Garda division is the county and city of Waterford. It had a headline crime rate of 487 crimes per 10,000 people versus a national average of 459 crimes per 10,000 people. The lowest figures were in the Cork West division with 207 crimes per 10,000 people. Wicklow had 357 crimes per 10,000 people. Despite what looks like a post written with good intent and high;lighting some obvious truths, I think you have a little bit of explaining to do?

My statement was obviously inaccurate - if you look at the following source: https://www.rte.ie/news/investigatio...ty-for-gardai/ - you'll read:

"Waterford is the most dangerous division for gardaí, with officers six times more likely to be assaulted in the line of duty than in the safest garda division, Wicklow, according to a data analysis by RTÉ Investigates...."

That's probably why I had the "six times" stuck in my head - I read all of these articles a while back so it's easy to get mixed up.

azimuth17

Ryan 1990

The source you give for the €35,000 versus € 45000 income Waterford versus Kilkenny is a coloured map in an article which ha sno mention of either Waterford or Kilkenny except as vague colours on the map. The CSO stats of Feb 2020 are at complete odds. If anything the two counties are broadly similar in income terms.

The source you give for crime is a Mirror article of 2015 referring to 2012/3 stats.

I have no wish to spend an evening disputing stats, you have made a valiant attempt at a good post which contains truths like unemployment, but I would suggest greater care in presenting data?

ryan1990

azimuth17 wrote: »

Ryan 1990

The source you give for the €35,000 versus € 45000 income Waterford versus Kilkenny is a coloured map in an article which ha sno mention of either Waterford or Kilkenny except as vague colours on the map. The CSO stats of Feb 2020 are at complete odds. If anything the two counties are broadly similar in income terms.

The source you give for crime is a Mirror article of 2015 referring to 2012/3 stats.

I have no wish to spend an evening disputing stats, you have made a valiant attempt at a good post which contains truths like unemployment, but I would suggest greater care in presenting data?

See attached article from last year which suggests median household income in Kilkenny is €5,000 higher than in Waterford:

https://www.thejournal.ie/cso-malahide-4690048-Jun2019/#:~:text=MALAHIDE%20HAS%20THE%20highest%20median,north%20Dublin%2C%20was%20%E2%82%AC78%2C631.

IsosKramer

Regarding ryan1990's post number 149. I agree with much of it.
The only issue I would have is with the " Compare and Despair " section.
Galway is not, as stated, " slightly bigger " than Waterford. This is a common misconception. According to the 2016 census, Waterford's population (including Kilkenny suburbs) was 53,500. Galway City's was 80,000. 50% larger is not "slight"!
Even this does not reflect the difference in scale. New developments or first-time buyers can't go near Galway City unfortunately (a consequence of some of the highest property prices outside Dublin). This means all would-be city residents are forced to buy in satellite towns like Oranmore, etc. keeping the apparent population increase within the city artificially low.
I think that the best source of the state of play in the cities is to be found in the CSO's labour force figures for 2016.

Table 4.1 gives the " Daytime Working Population " figures :

Limerick City. 44,624
Galway City. 44,376
Waterford City. 24,375

As said in post 149, " A lot of people have compared Waterford to Galway " but the painful reality is that Waterford needs to look back at Drogheda rather than up at the other cities.

ryan1990

IsosKramer wrote: »

Regarding ryan1990's post number 149. I agree with much of it.
The only issue I would have is with the " Compare and Despair " section.
Galway is not, as stated, " slightly bigger " than Waterford. This is a common misconception. According to the 2016 census, Waterford's population (including Kilkenny suburbs) was 53,500. Galway City's was 80,000. 50% larger is not "slight"!
Even this does not reflect the difference in scale. New developments or first-time buyers can't go near Galway City unfortunately (a consequence of some of the highest property prices outside Dublin). This means all would-be city residents are forced to buy in satellite towns like Oranmore, etc. keeping the apparent population increase within the city artificially low.
I think that the best source of the state of play in the cities is to be found in the CSO's labour force figures for 2016.

Table 4.1 gives the " Daytime Working Population " figures :

Limerick City. 44,624
Galway City. 44,376
Waterford City. 24,375

As said in post 149, " A lot of people have compared Waterford to Galway " but the painful reality is that Waterford needs to look back at Drogheda rather than up at the other cities.

Fair enough - I haven't checked populations in I'd say about 15 years - last time I checked Waterford City had 50,000 compared to about 60,000 in Galway City.

Interesting that Galway City has almost twice Waterford City's working population - despite their population being less than 50% higher.

To play Devil's Advocate - Swords is another town of similar size to both Waterford and Drogheda - however Swords is - in general - far wealthier.

I know Waterford probably mighn't be the most deprived or disadvantaged city in Ireland (I'd imagine that could be Derry?) - however Derry's deprivation is the direct result of the historical persecution, housing discrimination, educational discrimination, employment discrimination and the gerrymandering faced by the Catholics in the north (to this day the Catholic areas of Belfast and Derry are far more deprived than the Protestant areas).

However, I'd imagine, that this is slowly but surely, being made right.
The overall point being - Waterford and the south-east in general, have seemingly been overlooked again by our new Government

Wanderer78

ryan1990 wrote: »

To play Devil's Advocate - Swords is another town of similar size to both Waterford and Drogheda - however Swords is - in general - far wealthier.

this is a typical outcome though from a modern economy, unfortunately, and it looks like our gini coefficient is going in the wrong direction

azimuth17

Swords population 36924 is Dublin. like Tallaght is Dublin and Dun Laoghaire is Dublin. Talk of these places as anything but Dublin, is like saying Ferrybank is not Waterford and is a convenient fiction designed to create even further economic pull to the capital.

IsosKramer

ryan1990 wrote: »

Fair enough - I haven't checked populations in I'd say about 15 years - last time I checked Waterford City had 50,000 compared to about 60,000 in Galway City.

Interesting that Galway City has almost twice Waterford City's working population - despite their population being less than 50% higher.

To play Devil's Advocate - Swords is another town of similar size to both Waterford and Drogheda - however Swords is - in general - far wealthier.

I know Waterford probably mighn't be the most deprived or disadvantaged city in Ireland (I'd imagine that could be Derry?) - however Derry's deprivation is the direct result of the historical persecution, housing discrimination, educational discrimination, employment discrimination and the gerrymandering faced by the Catholics in the north (to this day the Catholic areas of Belfast and Derry are far more deprived than the Protestant areas).

However, I'd imagine, that this is slowly but surely, being made right.
The overall point being - Waterford and the south-east in general, have seemingly been overlooked again by our new Government

I posted the labour force data because I felt it shows a more accurate comparison into the difference in size of the cities. I also mentioned the reasons that there has been little or no new housing within Galway City in the last decade. It's all occurring in places outside the city like Oranmore (which has even had a new commuter train station built in that time). This keeps the APPARENT population stuck artificially lower than the reality of the population, best demonstrated in the labour force figures.
That's my hypothesis anyway!

ryan1990

azimuth17 wrote: »

Swords population 36924 is Dublin. like Tallaght is Dublin and Dun Laoghaire is Dublin. Talk of these places as anything but Dublin, is like saying Ferrybank is not Waterford and is a convenient fiction designed to create even further economic pull to the capital.

Swords is a town in county Dublin.

Tallaght (Dublin 24) and Dún Laoghaire are both in Dublin City - Swords isn't.

Ferrybank is in Waterford City - but Tramore, for example, isn't.

Somebody made a case for comparing Waterford to Drogheda (not all of Louth - just Drogheda).
I made a case stating that Drogheda and the town of Swords (just Swords - not Dublin City) are similar in size.

Wanderer78

ryan1990 wrote: »

Swords is a town in county Dublin.

Tallaght (Dublin 24) and Dún Laoghaire are both in Dublin City - Swords isn't.

Ferrybank is in Waterford City - but Tramore, for example, isn't.

Somebody made a case for comparing Waterford to Drogheda (not all of Louth - just Drogheda).
I made a case stating that Drogheda and the town of Swords (just Swords - not Dublin City) are similar in size.

the proximity of swords to dublin city though skews the data

azimuth17

ryan1990 wrote: »

Swords is a town in county Dublin.

Tallaght (Dublin 24) and Dún Laoghaire are both in Dublin City - Swords isn't.

Ferrybank is in Waterford City - but Tramore, for example, isn't.

Somebody made a case for comparing Waterford to Drogheda (not all of Louth - just Drogheda).
I made a case stating that Drogheda and the town of Swords (just Swords - not Dublin City) are similar in size.

I am regularly in that area. People may say Swords, but it is Dublin for all intents and purposes and the proximity of the capital completely skews all the data. Tallaght is an independent town and location of South Dublin County Council as is Dun Laoire which is the location of Dun Laoire/Rathdown County Council. Yet these places are obviously Dublin and are completely connected to the capital. This was not always the case and will eventually the same will happen with Swords. There is a valid case to be made for saying that Drogheda is Dublin and Bray is Dublin and Greystones is Dublin etc. Just as there is a valid case for saying that Tramore is Waterford.

Dexpat

ryan1990 wrote: »

Swords is a town in county Dublin.

Tallaght (Dublin 24) and Dún Laoghaire are both in Dublin City - Swords isn't.

Ferrybank is in Waterford City - but Tramore, for example, isn't.

Somebody made a case for comparing Waterford to Drogheda (not all of Louth - just Drogheda).
I made a case stating that Drogheda and the town of Swords (just Swords - not Dublin City) are similar in size.

You have made some valid points but as others have said you are giving out a lot of ill informed and inaccurate statistics. Tallaght and Dun Laoghaire are NOT officially part of Dublin City. However they along with Swords, Blanchardstown etc are in reality part of Dublin, just like Ferrybank is to Waterford. Carelessness with information makes it easy to dismiss many of the other points you make.

ryan1990

I just took another town of Drogheda's size and used it as a sample - as per the last census - the biggest ten cities/towns in the Republic of Ireland are:

1. Dublin 1,174,000
2. Cork 209,000
3. Limerick 94,000
4. Galway 79,000
5. Waterford 53,000
6. Drogheda 41,000
7. Swords 40,000
8. Dundalk 39,000
9. Bray 33,000
10. Navan 30,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_population

Areas such as Tallaght, Dún Laoghaire etc would be included in Dublin City's population - the likes of Swords, Malahide, Balbriggan and Skerries are separate towns (for now). Anyways gone way off track here.

Wanderer78

ryan1990 wrote: »

I just took another town of Drogheda's size and used it as a sample - as per the last census - the biggest ten cities/towns in the Republic of Ireland are:

1. Dublin 1,174,000
2. Cork 209,000
3. Limerick 94,000
4. Galway 79,000
5. Waterford 53,000
6. Drogheda 41,000
7. Swords 40,000
8. Dundalk 39,000
9. Bray 33,000
10. Navan 30,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_population

Areas such as Tallaght, Dún Laoghaire etc would be included in Dublin City's population - the likes of Swords, Malahide, Balbriggan and Skerries are separate towns (for now). Anyways gone way off track here.

unfortunately making such analysis cannot be simplified as such, a larger amount of variables are generally at play, id imagine there are ways of off setting skews though in stat packages such as r etc

alta stare

Harry Palmr wrote: »

alta stare

So you're just here wasting time basically? Fine but do so in less political threads.

Did you become a mod recently?

alta stare

spaceCreated wrote: »

alta stare.... comes on boards, complains about people complaining and saying people should not be complaining on boards... wtf...

i dont think so.

friendlyfun

I do worry that Droheda could overtake us a city. Much closer to Dublin too. They are looking for city status atm

BBM77

friendlyfun wrote: »

I do worry that Droheda could overtake us a city. Much closer to Dublin too. They are looking for city status atm

They are but they stretch credulity as to what a city is. Their claim is based on including surrounding towns and villages way outside Drogheda with large country areas between them. Cities by definition are continuous urban areas. That is actually why the boundary review panel did not include Waterford port when they recommended the boundary extension or restoration to give it a more appropriate title.

azimuth17

Someone mentioned Swords in an earlier post. How many towns has Swords over taken? Wexford, Enniscorthy, Kilkenny, Carlow, Dungarvan, Clonmel, Tralee, Ennis, Sligo, etc,etc. All bets are off when you have a town in the Dublin orbit.

People in Ireland have been mute on regional development, with predictable results, especially in the south east. How many times when something "regional" is proposed for Waterford, the largest urban area by far in the south east, on this forum, do we have a collection of naysayers, begrudgers and just plain dopes telling us that it shouldn't happen? Seems to me that this is simply buying into the Dublin narrative.

GazzaL

I heard the Government are going to trade Waterford to the Unionists in exchange for the 6 counties, and they will build a Battle of the Boyne theme park in Tramore as part of the deal.

Wanderer78

GazzaL wrote:

I heard the Government are going to trade Waterford to the Unionists in exchange for the 6 counties, and they will build a Battle of the Boyne theme park in Tramore as part of the deal.

Finally a proper rollercoaster

Bards

GazzaL wrote: »

I heard the Government are going to trade Waterford to the Unionists in exchange for the 6 counties, and they will build a Battle of the Boyne theme park in Tramore as part of the deal.

We might be actually be better off under British rule as we were before the ROI came into being... We actually had a university in Waterford but FF closed it

Wanderer78

Bards wrote: »

We might be actually be better off under British rule as we were before the ROI came into being... We actually had a university in Waterford but FF closed it

post brexit?