Stephen Donnelly - Minister for Health

limitedIQ

limitedIQ wrote: »

Yeah, like do people think you are born with a political allegiance and are not allowed to change your mind or beliefs for the rest of your life.

indeed, if he ever wanted to be a minister there was a much higher likelihood of getting that in one of the main parties.

just being pragmatic really. who gives a feck once you can do a good job.

will give him a chance.

he talks a good game, lets see if he can do anything in what is a portfolio with many complex issues.

CrankyHaus

CrankyHaus wrote: »

............
If there's any portfolio that needs a management consultant it's the HSE, I wish him well.

Health is a disaster here ........... too many layers of management, too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years. Nigh on impossible to solve....... that's before you get to shortages in frontline staff and their salary expectations.
Then the consultants (not all of course) effectively double jobbing and not putting the hours in for the public patients..... https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2017/1121/921635-hse-hospital-managers/

CrankyHaus

Augeo wrote: »

Health is a disaster here ........... too many layers of management, too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years. Nigh on impossible to solve....... that's before you get to shortages in frontline staff and their salary expectations.
Then the consultants (not all of course) effectively double jobbing and not putting the hours in for the public patients..... https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2017/1121/921635-hse-hospital-managers/

Oh I'm well aware. Like most dysfunctional systems it will react aggressively to any reform, so its more likely Donnelly either does very little like his predecessors or loses his post early by stirring up a hornets nest. Still I am curious to see how he fares.

noodler

Augeo wrote: »

Health is a disaster here ........... too many layers of management, too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years. Nigh on impossible to solve....... that's before you get to shortages in frontline staff and their salary expectations.
Then the consultants (not all of course) effectively double jobbing and not putting the hours in for the public patients..... https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2017/1121/921635-hse-hospital-managers/

Of the 120k people in the HSE, I think you'd be surprised how few of them fall outside of the "frontline" category.

There is this narrative that the majority are admin but it isn't true. We've more nurses on average according to the OECD for example.

If there is a recognised staffing issue it would be consultants and GPs.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Of the 120k people in the HSE, I think you'd be surprised how few of them fall outside of the "frontline" category.
.........

The current WTE for nursing and midwifery stands at
37,843 (HSE, 2019).
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_health/submissions/2019/2019-11-13_opening-statement-phil-ni-sheaghdha-general-secretary-irish-nurses-and-midwives-organisation-inmo_en.pdf


While the total number of people employed by the HSE has increased from 99,327 to 110,975 or 11.54% since the end of 2014, the number of administration and managerial staff has risen 17.21% from 15,113 in December 2014 to 17,705 in December 2017.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-hires-3-times-more-office-staff-than-nurses-468746.html#:~:text=While%20the%20total%20number%20of,to%2017%2C705%20in%20December%202017.

noodler

Augeo wrote: »

The current WTE for nursing and midwifery stands at
37,843 (HSE, 2019).
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_health/submissions/2019/2019-11-13_opening-statement-phil-ni-sheaghdha-general-secretary-irish-nurses-and-midwives-organisation-inmo_en.pdf


While the total number of people employed by the HSE has increased from 99,327 to 110,975 or 11.54% since the end of 2014, the number of administration and managerial staff has risen 17.21% from 15,113 in December 2014 to 17,705 in December 2017.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-hires-3-times-more-office-staff-than-nurses-468746.html#:~:text=While%20the%20total%20number%20of,to%2017%2C705%20in%20December%202017.

You might read the December report and go through the headings.

The broad nursing category is at 40k but if you think that implies 80k admin then you really need to take a close look at the categories that make up the remainder.

Carers, dentists, GPs, physios etc etc.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

The current WTE for nursing and midwifery stands at
37,843 (HSE, 2019).
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_health/submissions/2019/2019-11-13_opening-statement-phil-ni-sheaghdha-general-secretary-irish-nurses-and-midwives-organisation-inmo_en.pdf


While the total number of people employed by the HSE has increased from 99,327 to 110,975 or 11.54% since the end of 2014, the number of administration and managerial staff has risen 17.21% from 15,113 in December 2014 to 17,705 in December 2017.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-hires-3-times-more-office-staff-than-nurses-468746.html#:~:text=While%20the%20total%20number%20of,to%2017%2C705%20in%20December%202017.

noodler wrote: »

You might read the December report and go through the headings.

The broad nursing category is at 40k but if you think that implies 80k admin then you really need to take a close look at the categories that make up the remainder.

Carers, dentists, GPs, physios etc etc.

I think nothing of the sort, perhaps you need to read what was in my post.

CrankyHaus

noodler wrote: »

There is this narrative that the majority are admin but it isn't true. We've more nurses on average according to the OECD for example.

Does the progression of nurses into CNM (Clinical Nurse Manager) style roles account for some of this?

I have no idea what it's like elsewhere but if we're listing management roles held by trained nurses and other countries just have managers in those positions, or just list them as managers, it may account for us having an apparently high level of nurses while still not having enough nurses.

Harry Palmr

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

That's a good step.

My father had two stays in hospital for over a week last year. During both stays he was waiting over a week for scans ordered.

During the second stay he was released after a scan showing no problems and was told for the last week of his stay he could go once they got a scan result back.

It's not just waiting lists but moving people out of inpatient stays asap.

Which requires post op/illness facilities and staff for home care, so called acute bed blocking is largely down to elderly and often somewhat frail people not having a safe environment to return to. This has been a running sore for decades.

meeeeh

I happy Donnelly got Health. He is strong talking about it now we can hope he will actually manage to do something with it.

I don't rate Simon Harris. I think he is good media performer but I don't think he was good minister. Hopefully Donnelly will be better.

noodler

Augeo wrote: »

I think nothing of the sort, perhaps you need to read what was in my post.

Why are you starting with recent figure and then providing a 2015-2017 change for admin?

Anyway, look, check out the December 2019 figures. You might be surprised how much of the growth isn't admin.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Why are you starting with recent figure and then providing a 2015-2017 change for admin?

Anyway, look, check out the December 2019 figures. You might be surprised how much of the growth isn't admin.

I did a quick google.
I doubt there are less admin now then in 2017.......is 2017 not recent? ..... why are you saying "but if you think that implies 80k admin then you really need to take a close look at the categories that make up the remainder" .......... when I said nothing of the sort.

The point I made was " too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years"

The figures I posted suggest we have an admin person for every 2 wte nurse positions............ that's a tad much IMO and lots of the admin folk are paid more then nurses as the admin folk are there years. Mental stuff.

mariaalice

A CEO of a business who sell into the HSE was being interviewed on some business program and in his opinion, those he was dealing with in the HSE were very professional and very on the ball and not at all like the stereotype of HSE admin staff. I would be more inclined to believe someone who is dealing with the HSE everyday that someone with no dealing with the HSE but belives all the stereotypes.

I suspect like all large organisation some bits of it are very good, some are adequate, and some are awful.

mariaalice

Also lots of clinical supervision posts could be classed as admin when in reality they are not admin. There would have to be a thorough analysis of the staf that are classed as admin before anyone could make a definite comment.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

A CEO of a business who sell into the HSE was being interviewed on some business program and in his opinion, those he was dealing with in the HSE were very professional and very on the ball and not at all like the stereotype of HSE admin staff. I would be more inclined to believe someone who is dealing with the HSE everyday that someone with no dealing with the HSE but belives all the stereotypes.

I suspect like all large organisation some bits of it are very good, some are adequate, and some are awful.

He'd not be at all biased............... he's making money from them.

I'm not believing any stereotypes.......... I said there's loads of admin staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 years.

mariaalice

Augeo wrote: »

He'd not be at all biased............... he's making money from them.

I'm not believing any stereotypes.......... I said there's loads of admin staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 years.

Nobody with a multi-million business puts their neck on the line publicley and says the staff try are dealing with in the HSE are good unless they are.

I am sure their are thousands of admin staff in the HSE on 40/50k but that says nothing about what they are doing and if they are good, adequate or poor at their jobs.

In another thread on a similar issue one of foaming at the mouth bigrade was going on about a nurse on over 100k a year, in reality, they were in hospital management and not working as nurses.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

...............

I am sure their are thousands of admin staff in the HSE on 40/50k but that says nothing about what they are doing and if they are good, adequate or poor at their jobs.................

They are doing much the same as admin staff in the HSE on 10/20k less I'd imagine.

mariaalice

Augeo wrote: »

They are doing much the same as admin staff in the HSE on 10/20k less I'd imagine.

Do you know this for a fact? are you saying get rid of increment? A friend of mine worked in one of the private hospitals in admin and got increments the condition was very good very similar to the HSE bar the pension but they still had a good pension.

mariaalice

There are all kinds of issues with the HSE but the lazy analysis of is its all bloated admin is very poor, but then again people love the easy simple answer.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

Do you know this for a fact? are you saying get rid of increment? ............

I'm saying there are admin folk overpaid on 40/50k.
I don't think admin folk should be paid more then nurses.

mariaalice wrote: »

.......A friend of mine worked in one of the private hospitals in admin and got increments the condition was very good very similar to the HSE bar the pension but they still had a good pension.........

So did she work 40 years with this private hospital? How good was the pension? Was it 2/3s final salary? Was it DC or DB? What was very good about it? Where her increments based on anything other then how long she was there?

My OHs aunt works in admin in the HSE and does much the same she did 20 years ago for much more money. She'd not get anything close to it in the private sector.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

There are all kinds of issues with the HSE but the lazy analysis of is its all bloated admin is very poor, but then again people love the easy simple answer.

there is indeed, I mentioend a few of them.

Augeo wrote: »

Health is a disaster here ........... too many layers of management, too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years. Nigh on impossible to solve....... that's before you get to shortages in frontline staff and their salary expectations.
Then the consultants (not all of course) effectively double jobbing and not putting the hours in for the public patients..... https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2017/1121/921635-hse-hospital-managers/

Dare to mention admin and the sh1t hits the fan though, I pity the folk who have to actually change anything in the HSE.

CrankyHaus

Augeo wrote: »

He'd not be at all biased............... he's making money from them.

I'm not believing any stereotypes.......... I said there's loads of admin staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 years.

Knowing some of the stuff they get away with selling to the HSE I can understand where he's coming from. I'd be delighted to find suckers willing to pay me for it too. :pac:



For instance I was astonished to find hospitals buying COWs, Computers on Wheels, as a "modern" tech solution acquired in recent years. When tablets have been ubiquitous for well over a decade finding someone willing to buy a COW would have vendors doing somersaults. From what I've been told of IT systems and solutions doctors and other staff are required to work with, a similar story.


The idea of benchmarking the efficiency of the HSE by the happiness of those selling to it is so flawed. Is it supposed to be a health service or a mechanism for funnelling taxpayers money to private vendors?

CrankyHaus

CrankyHaus wrote: »

............

The idea of benchmarking the efficiency of the HSE by the happiness of those selling to it is so flawed. Is it supposed to be a health service or a mechanism for funnelling taxpayers money to private vendors?

Indeed, although some folk reckon "Nobody with a multi-million business puts their neck on the line publicley and says the staff try are dealing with in the HSE are good unless they are" :pac:

mariaalice

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Knowing some of the stuff they get away with selling to the HSE I can understand where he's coming from. I'd be delighted to find suckers willing to pay me for it too. :pac:



For instance I was astonished to find hospitals buying COWs, Computers on Wheels, as a "modern" tech solution acquired in recent years. When tablets have been ubiquitous for well over a decade finding someone willing to buy a COW would have vendors doing somersaults. From what I've been told of IT systems and solutions doctors and other staff are required to work with, a similar story.


The idea of benchmarking the efficiency of the HSE by the happiness of those selling to it is so flawed. Is it supposed to be a health service or a mechanism for funnelling taxpayers money to private vendors?

I give up he was selling PPE, yeah its all caused by heavily unionied admin staff that all there are no other complex issue to be solved consultants contracts, downgrading some hospitals etc and that is just a tiny amount of the issues out there.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/protesters-reject-cuts-at-hospital-in-clonmel-1.645082

A crowd estimated by the organisers at between 15,000 and 20,000 attended the rally which filled the Main Guard in the centre of the town. That is an example.

Anyway back to the original point Stephen Donnelly is a new face we will see how he dose.

StackSteevens

Augeo wrote: »

Health is a disaster here ........... too many layers of management, too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years. Nigh on impossible to solve....... that's before you get to shortages in frontline staff and their salary expectations.
Then the consultants (not all of course) effectively double jobbing and not putting the hours in for the public patients..... https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2017/1121/921635-hse-hospital-managers/

If RTE had dug a bit more they'd probably have uncovered the far bigger scandal that in every hospital in the country there is at least one (often more) consultant(s) who is/are being paid a full salary but who isn't/aren't allowed to perform his/her consultant duties as s/he has/have been found unfit to practice and/or are currently under investigation by their professional body.

Many of these non-performing individuals have been on the HSE payroll for years and are lilely to remain on it until they retire, because HSE management doesn't want to tackle that particular problem.

(I sometimes wish that a competent muckraker like Ken Foxe would do a bit of proper digging using FoI instead of going for the low hung fruit.)

noodler

Augeo wrote: »

I did a quick google.
I doubt there are less admin now then in 2017.......is 2017 not recent? ..... why are you saying "but if you think that implies 80k admin then you really need to take a close look at the categories that make up the remainder" .......... when I said nothing of the sort.

The point I made was " too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years"

The figures I posted suggest we have an admin person for every 2 wte nurse positions............ that's a tad much IMO and lots of the admin folk are paid more then nurses as the admin folk are there years. Mental stuff.

You are really not fairly or accurately interpreting those figures.

of the 120k staff there you've seen 40k nurses and 20k+ admin and just assumed that's too much ignoring the other 60k of the staff

Is 2017 not recent?

Bit there are end 2019 and 2020 figure available? Why not use them? We have more public servants now than we did at the peak. Hiring has been huge the last five years. Education and health have accounted for 80% of all hiring in the public service since 2015.

Using 2017 data is going to underplay the actual staffing levels pretty substantially.

noodler

Augeo wrote: »

I'm saying there are admin folk overpaid on 40/50k.
I don't think admin folk should be paid more then nurses.




.

And they aren't.

The average nurse salary is not to be confused with the starting salary.

Galwayguy35

Was listening to the radio on the way home and they don't give Donnelly much hope of turning things around, they reckon Shortall will be out to get him as well.

Water John

He has, in his first interview said, he intended speeding up Slainte Care. That's Shorthall's pet project. They might, make up.
Any major overhaul will take 10 years.

Jim Root

Can’t take this guy seriously; he’s got no integrity.