Stephen Donnelly - Minister for Health

Galwayguy35

He's been talking a big game over the last few months, he'll have his work cut out for him trying to get any change out of the HSE, Ministers come and go those folks know they are in a job for life.

California Dreamer

Jim Root wrote: »

Can’t take this guy seriously; he’s got no integrity.

Unlike who?

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

........... too many layers of management, too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years. Nigh on impossible to solve....... that's before you get to shortages in frontline staff and their salary expectations.................

This is what I said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

noodler wrote: »

Of the 120k people in the HSE, I think you'd be surprised how few of them fall outside of the "frontline" category.

There is this narrative that the majority are admin but it isn't true. We've more nurses on average according to the OECD for example.

.............

^^^^^^^^^^^ you came out with that spiel

noodler wrote: »

You are really not fairly or accurately interpreting those figures.

of the 120k staff there you've seen 40k nurses and 20k+ admin and just assumed that's too much ignoring the other 60k of the staff

Is 2017 not recent?

Bit there are end 2019 and 2020 figure available? Why not use them? We have more public servants now than we did at the peak. Hiring has been huge the last five years. Education and health have accounted for 80% of all hiring in the public service since 2015.

Using 2017 data is going to underplay the actual staffing levels pretty substantially.

You are waffling now, my point was that lots of admin folk are overpaid........... you went on about how I might be surprised at the number of non frontline staff and also claimed we are above average on nurses ..........

As I said I uzed 2017 as I did a quick google and that's what I found. My point was the admin staff on 40/50k .... way more then many nurses, just because the admin staff are in the role for 20 odd years. I used 2020 figures of nurses iirc.......... a 2017 source for admin. Shoot me for that if you want.

If you've a point, perhaps make it concisely and present any data to back it up rather than quoting me and going off on tangents about "you might be surprised" etc etc

You seem to be reckoning there isn't a shortage of nurses ?
https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/inmo-warns-brexit-could-worsen-shortage-of-nurses/


You also said the following after I mentioned the 2017 admin staff numnbers............

noodler wrote: »

You might read the December report and go through the headings.

The broad nursing category is at 40k but if you think that implies 80k admin then you really need to take a close look at the categories that make up the remainder.

Carers, dentists, GPs, physios etc etc.

I think nothing of the sort. You seem to have taken huge offence with my comment that many admin staff are on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years, you also seem to be not great at reading what I've posted.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

And they aren't.

The average nurse salary is not to be confused with the starting salary.

Hold on now, there are plenty admin folk with 20 years service paid more than some nurses. I'm not confusing average salary with starting salary....... I'm stating a fact that you cannot dispute.

There are plenty admin staff on higher salary then plenty of nurses.

StackSteevens

Augeo wrote: »

Hold on now, there are plenty admin folk with 20 years service paid more than some nurses. I'm not confusing average salary with starting salary....... I'm stating a fact that you cannot dispute.

There are plenty admin staff on higher salary then plenty of nurses.

So for you it's all about competent administrators being paid more than competent nurses?

Just sort that one out and the entire Health System will be tickety bo!

StackSteevens

StackSteevens wrote: »

So for you it's all about competent administrators being paid more than competent nurses?..........

Just sort that one out and the entire Health System will be tickety bo!

Nope, it was one thing I mentioned but folk get awfully upset when you mention some admin staff being overpaid.
It's one of the reasons reform won't happen........ lots of the admin work is €10/hour stuff in the private sector but because Mary does it for 20 years she gets 40/50k ......... it's a looney practice.

I'd not be as sure as you that they are all as competent as they packages suggest by the way.

Augeo wrote: »

Health is a disaster here ........... too many layers of management, too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years. Nigh on impossible to solve....... that's before you get to shortages in frontline staff and their salary expectations.
Then the consultants (not all of course) effectively double jobbing and not putting the hours in for the public patients..... https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2017/1121/921635-hse-hospital-managers/

StackSteevens

Augeo wrote: »

Nope, it was one thing I mentioned but folk get awfully upset when you mention some admin staff being overpaid.
It's one of the reasons reform won't happen........ lots of the admin work is €10/hour stuff in the private sector but because Mary does it for 20 years she gets 40/50k ......... it's a looney practice.

I'd not be as sure as you that they are all as competent as they packages suggest by the way.

Is this the Mary in payroll who is responsible for ensuring that 600 nurses and 80 doctors get paid their wages, shift allowances and so on every fortnight, or the Mary who is in charge of patients' files and who gets a bollocking from an overpaid diva consultant whenever one of the 60,000 patient's files is mislaid?

Both of them are every bit as essential to the HSE as the permanently pregnant radiographer who can't ever do her job because she can't risk the foetus getting radiated!

Muahahaha

Augeo wrote: »

Nope, it was one thing I mentioned but folk get awfully upset when you mention some admin staff being overpaid.
It's one of the reasons reform won't happen........ lots of the admin work is €10/hour stuff in the private sector but because Mary does it for 20 years she gets 40/50k ......... it's a looney practice.

I'd not be as sure as you that they are all as competent as they packages suggest by the way.

Any problems Ive ever had with the HSE has always been admin related. Had my file with crucial information in it lost for over 6 months before it showed up so a consultant could review it. This is cardiology so I wonder how many other patients had their files lost in the same set of boxes, for those older than me that could have had serious consequences.

Half the time you ring up a consultants secretary you cant get through to them, you leave a message and they never ring you back. It can easily take 10+ phone calls just to get through to them, people who are not persistant would just give up. In my experience many of them just couldnt give two hoots about healthcare and they see patients as an annoyance preventing them having an easy time at work.

thomasdylan

StackSteevens wrote: »

Is this the Mary in payroll who is responsible for ensuring that 600 nurses and 80 doctors get paid their wages, shift allowances and so on every fortnight, or the Mary who is in charge of patients' files and who gets a bollocking from an overpaid diva consultant whenever one of the 60,000 patient's files is mislaid?

Half the time HSE payroll are an absolute disaster. Overtime is never right and often not paid.

thomasdylan

StackSteevens wrote: »

Is this the Mary in payroll who is responsible for ensuring that 600 nurses and 80 doctors get paid their wages, shift allowances and so on every fortnight, or the Mary who is in charge of patients' files and who gets a bollocking from an overpaid diva consultant whenever one of the 60,000 patient's files is mislaid?

Half the time HSE payroll are an absolute disaster. Overtime is never right and often not paid.

Feisar

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

He's been talking a big game over the last few months, he'll have his work cut out for him trying to get any change out of the HSE, Ministers come and go those folks know they are in a job for life.

This is the problem, if ones top tier aren't producing the goods one needs the power to get rid.

StackSteevens

StackSteevens wrote: »

Is this the Mary in payroll who is responsible for ensuring that 600 nurses and 80 doctors get paid their wages, shift allowances and so on every fortnight, or the Mary who is in charge of patients' files and who gets a bollocking from an overpaid diva consultant whenever one of the 60,000 patient's files is mislaid?

.................!

I wasn't being specific but it seems likely the one in bold was a great example. Do you reckon there are no overpaid admin staff in the HSE? Seriously? 40/50k for admin work is ludicrous ............ the starting salary is what the job warrants. You disagree and that's fiine but you won't be persuading me that 40/50k for admin staff is money well spent and you also won't be persuading me that there aren't loads of admin staff doing less than good jobs for more than good money.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Any problems Ive ever had with the HSE has always been admin related. Had my file with crucial information in it lost for over 6 months before it showed up so a consultant could review it............

StackSteevens

StackSteevens wrote: »

Is this the Mary in payroll who is responsible for ensuring that 600 nurses and 80 doctors get paid their wages, shift allowances and so on every fortnight, or the Mary who is in charge of patients' files and who gets a bollocking from an overpaid diva consultant whenever one of the 60,000 patient's files is mislaid?

..........!

thomasdylan wrote: »

Half the time HSE payroll are an absolute disaster. Overtime is never right and often not paid.

.......I wasn't being specific but it seems likely the one in bold was a great example. .......... you are on fire StackSteevens, two out of two :pac:

StackSteevens

thomasdylan wrote: »

Half the time HSE payroll are an absolute disaster. Overtime is never right and often not paid.

Mainly because the self-important clowns claiming it are completely incapable of filling in a form correctly.

StackSteevens

Augeo wrote: »

.......I wasn't being specific but it seems likely the one in bold was a great example. .......... you are on fire StackSteevens, two out of two :pac:

Yep. I'm well used to shooting down opinionated windbags who genuinely haven't a clue what they're talking about!

It comes with the territory, both in real life and in many of the threads on boards.ie.

thomasdylan

StackSteevens wrote: »

Mainly because the self-important clowns claiming it are completely incapable of filling in a form correctly.

It's not just overtime forms, it's also not being put at the right point of the salary scale, being paid overtime late because somone in payroll is on leave for three weeks at Christmas and it won't be processed, not being paid for two months after starting a new job because payroll have lost forms, etc.

There has been a refusal of hospitals like UHL to pay overtime which ends up beign dragged out months and years later and eventually is either forgotten about or paid out on the eve of industrial action.

I hope you don't work in a hospital because you have some chip on your shoulder. Feelings of inadequacy or what?

Daz_

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Don't worry he is a white straight male he HAS to be have been chosen on merit alone!

Is a straight white male not allowed to get a job these days ?

Arghus

It's a handy one for everyone I guess. He, seemingly, wanted to go there and sure, who knows he might prove effective, and if it doesn't work he can be blamed and jettisoned fairly lively without anyone's feelings getting hurt, because nobody really claims him as their own.

Some - or rather a lot - of his machinations do seem to be nakedly careerist. But, having said that, I can understand why he left the soc Dems. I don't think you're going to make too many waves in Irish life with the Soc Dems, even though your moral creditentals might be entirely flawless in your irrelevance.

There mustn't be many easier political lives than that of an Irish opposition politician so the fact that he chose to step away from that and seek out the health ministry gives me a bit of hope. I think the guy does want to make a difference.

That's not to say that I think he'll be competent. He does come across as a little bit pleased with his own intelligence - and I wonder has he earned that right to be pleased. And health is a monster that partially or totally defeats everybody. And these next few years will be absolutely brutal. To be honest, I think he'll eventually end up as an easy blood sacrifice.

StackSteevens

StackSteevens wrote: »

Mainly because the self-important clowns claiming it are completely incapable of filling in a form correctly.

That's a nice way to refer to your colleagues in the frontline, many of whom are paid less then lots of overpaid admin staff.

StackSteevens wrote: »

Yep. I'm well used to shooting down opinionated windbags who genuinely haven't a clue what they're talking about!

It comes with the territory, both in real life and in many of the threads on boards.ie.

OK, fair play for getting 40/50k per year for what's €10/hour work.
Fair play for also reckoning there are no overpaid admin in the HSE delivering next to nothing.


They should really contract out the admin to the private sector, it'd be done so much better for much less cost.

thomasdylan wrote: »

.........

I hope you don't work in a hospital because you have some chip on your shoulder. Feelings of inadequacy or what?

Perhaps there's always the bit of fear someone might actual tackle the wasters in the HSE. A new minister might poke that bear a tad.

noodler

Augeo wrote: »

This is what I said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




^^^^^^^^^^^ you came out with that spiel




You are waffling now, my point was that lots of admin folk are overpaid........... you went on about how I might be surprised at the number of non frontline staff and also claimed we are above average on nurses ..........

As I said I uzed 2017 as I did a quick google and that's what I found. My point was the admin staff on 40/50k .... way more then many nurses, just because the admin staff are in the role for 20 odd years. I used 2020 figures of nurses iirc.......... a 2017 source for admin. Shoot me for that if you want.

If you've a point, perhaps make it concisely and present any data to back it up rather than quoting me and going off on tangents about "you might be surprised" etc etc

You seem to be reckoning there isn't a shortage of nurses ?
https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/inmo-warns-brexit-could-worsen-shortage-of-nurses/


You also said the following after I mentioned the 2017 admin staff numnbers............





I think nothing of the sort. You seem to have taken huge offence with my comment that many admin staff are on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years, you also seem to be not great at reading what I've posted.

Jesus.

You are a bit of a mess here.

Use up to date data and understand all categories of staff next time you want to rant.

It is clear you jumped on nurses and admin figures alone in order to try a back up a predetermined view you hold about the HSE's problems that you took in somewhere.

On the side point, you might check the OECD at a glance figures for Health. It's been well established we have a higher number of nurses than the OECD average and quoting a local Galway newspaper doesn't change that.

karlitob

noodler wrote: »

Jesus.

You are a bit of a mess here.

Use up to date data and understand all categories of staff next time you want to rant.

It is clear you jumped on nurses and admin figures alone in order to try a back up a predetermined view you hold about the HSE's problems that you took in somewhere.

On the side point, you might check the OECD at a glance figures for Health. It's been well established we have a higher number of nurses than the OECD average and quoting a local Galway newspaper doesn't change that.

And there should also be a healthy dose of cynicism to any group whose role is to pursue higher numbers of staff, and better pay and conditions (into). I doubt that poster would listen to the Higher Civil Servants Union (I think that’s the name) opinion on pay and conditions.

karlitob

Muahahaha wrote: »

Any problems Ive ever had with the HSE has always been admin related. Had my file with crucial information in it lost for over 6 months before it showed up so a consultant could review it. This is cardiology so I wonder how many other patients had their files lost in the same set of boxes, for those older than me that could have had serious consequences.

Half the time you ring up a consultants secretary you cant get through to them, you leave a message and they never ring you back. It can easily take 10+ phone calls just to get through to them, people who are not persistant would just give up. In my experience many of them just couldnt give two hoots about healthcare and they see patients as an annoyance preventing them having an easy time at work.

They may be admin related but you don’t know if they are admin caused.

A chart can go missing because the nurse or doc didn’t return it. Or a doc took it off site. Or the porter put it inside another chart.

Consultants secretary’s often follow protocols set out by the consultant. A secretary might provide admin to a large number of consultants, who all want and demand many different things and who may often not let the secretary know that they have asked someone to come in on a certain day etc.

Yes, secretary’s can be right ol’ b****xes. But imagine for a minute that you’re a Grade 3 secretary on little more on €25kto€35k over 10 years. Then you read this thread. She - and they are all she in my experience - would think that no one had any respect for them, and thought them overpaid and useless. How would you respond when you have angry patients on the phone all day, angry consultants demanding very thing straight away, angry nurses looking down their nose at you everyday ‘you’re only the secretary’ - all in a system that you feel you have little power to change, even if someone listened to you.


**Cue to ‘we didn’t say anything bad about the secretaries themselves’ defence.


I’ve news for a lot of people on this thread - not all doctors and nurses are nice, they’re not all working flat out, and they don’t all deserve the money they are paid. And then there are loads that do, that make you just proud to work beside them.

So in that respect, they are the same as everyone else.

karlitob

thomasdylan wrote: »

It's not just overtime forms, it's also not being put at the right point of the salary scale, being paid overtime late because somone in payroll is on leave for three weeks at Christmas and it won't be processed, not being paid for two months after starting a new job because payroll have lost forms, etc.

There has been a refusal of hospitals like UHL to pay overtime which ends up beign dragged out months and years later and eventually is either forgotten about or paid out on the eve of industrial action.

I hope you don't work in a hospital because you have some chip on your shoulder. Feelings of inadequacy or what?

Agree that there are loads of issues like this. But there has been no investment by government since 2004 to have one single national payroll system. Don’t forget - the HSE is an amalgamation or about 20-30 different Organisations. In 2004, a new name went above the door - there was no investment in developing systems required for the largest organisation in the country. There’s no return on that investment - so problems like you identify above are real.

karlitob

thomasdylan wrote: »

It's not just overtime forms, it's also not being put at the right point of the salary scale, being paid overtime late because somone in payroll is on leave for three weeks at Christmas and it won't be processed, not being paid for two months after starting a new job because payroll have lost forms, etc.

There has been a refusal of hospitals like UHL to pay overtime which ends up beign dragged out months and years later and eventually is either forgotten about or paid out on the eve of industrial action.

I hope you don't work in a hospital because you have some chip on your shoulder. Feelings of inadequacy or what?

Agree that there are loads of issues like this. But there has been no investment by government since 2004 to have one single national payroll system. Don’t forget - the HSE is an amalgamation or about 20-30 different Organisations. In 2004, a new name went above the door - there was no investment in developing systems required for the largest organisation in the country. There’s no return on that investment - so problems like you identify above are real.

Water John

Yes there was a lot of money thrown at the IT issue, but it didn't solve the problem.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Jesus.

You are a bit of a mess here.

Use up to date data and understand all categories of staff next time you want to rant.

It is clear you jumped on nurses and admin figures alone in order to try a back up a predetermined view you hold about the HSE's problems that you took in somewhere.

On the side point, you might check the OECD at a glance figures for Health. It's been well established we have a higher number of nurses than the OECD average and quoting a local Galway newspaper doesn't change that.

Not at all a mess...... You are blue in the face trying to defend admin folk being paid more then nurses.

...... I wasn't referring to averages. You repeatedly sh1tting on about me being surprised about the numbers is baffling.

As I said.... Post whatever numbers you are referring to instead of waffling incessantly about how out of touch 2017 figures are.

You are indicative of how unsolvable the HSE issues are..... You defend admin folk but reckon nurses are paid enough. Irrational stuff altogether.

noodler

[

noodler wrote: »

Jesus.

You are a bit of a mess here.

Use up to date data and understand all categories of staff next time you want to rant.

.......

There's some up to date data for you..... It's the post that boiled your p1ss iirc.

Any admin staff on 40k is too much BTW, to quantify that for you.

Augeo wrote: »

....., too many admin/clerical type staff on 40/50k as they are there 20 odd years. .....

StackSteevens

StackSteevens wrote: »

One thing that Donnelly has going for him is that he'll be marked by SF's appalling Louise O'Reilly who appears to believe that outraged ranting is the only way to go.

I take it back!

Evidently the Sinn Fein Brains Trust reckoned that Stephen would be well able to brush the hapless Louise away without even breaking sweat, so they have moved her out of the firing line and brought in some heavy artillery in the person of Waterford's finest: David up the 'Ra Cullinane! Having slogged as a humble footsoldier in the SF trenches for many years, David is well able to open a package of elastoplast.


Poor Louise will now be marking Leo Vlad as she's been appointed SF's spokesperson on enterprise and employment. Rather decent of Mary Lou to go easy on Leo as he takes a well-earned breather!

Galwayguy35

StackSteevens wrote: »

I take it back!

Evidently the Sinn Fein Brains Trust reckoned that Stephen would be well able to brush the hapless Louise away without even breaking sweat, so they have moved her out of the firing line and brought in some heavy artillery in the person of Waterford's finest: David up the 'Ra Cullinane! Having slogged as a humble footsoldier in the SF trenches for many years, David is well able to open a package of elastoplast.


Poor Louise will now be marking Leo Vlad as she's been appointed SF's spokesperson on enterprise and employment. Rather decent of Mary Lou to go easy on Leo as he takes a well-earned breather!

SF scored an own goal when O Reilly disappeared for the months of March and April, its not a good look when the spokesperson on Health has nothing to offer during a crisis and then appears in May criticising the actions taken by others.

Galwayguy35

The first shots have been taken at Donnelly I see highlighting the cut in nursing home support, he's going to get a lot more of this before its all said and done.

Wait until he has to take on the nursing unions over something or other down the road!