BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

ExMachina1000

Gerry Hatrick wrote: »

12.7% of the population but responsible for more murder, nonnegligent manslaughter and robbery than any other race.

Black people need to start looking in the mirror and stop blaming white people for their circumstances.

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2&selYrs=2018&rdoGroups=3&rdoData=c

Some of the hoods and ghettos are so violent and out of control that police dont enter them unless accompanied by a swat team.

Think molenbeek x 50

Broadstone Bob

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I think the only positive from the last few days is that there maybe less instances untrained young gun enthusiasts willing to risk their futures going out to their way to the riots/protests happening near them. Even if Rittenhouse doesnt see prison time I can't see him becoming a police officer or joining the army (I think these are his career aspirations) so this has negatively affected his future prospects.
Some posters definitely seem to think only those without a criminal record should be protected under the law, which is definitely dangerous thinking!

He never has to worry about job prospects as he will make millions of dollars in lawsuits.

mynamejeff

Tell me how wrote: »

I don't think I have ever mentioned Mike Brown.

What difference does it make? Police fired indiscriminately killing her after someone didn't announce themselves at the door in the middle of the night.

If a white person shot through their door, I have no doubt you would be defending their 2nd amendment right to protect themselves.

Again, your use of the term 'rampant race crimes' indicates to me that you are ok with police being judge, jury and executioner based only on a feeling that someone is a criminal.

If the police were killing white people in the same way, and had been doing so for decades, there would have long been changes called for.

it makes quite a difference. shooting at police in the course of their duty with a illegal firearm while involved in drug trafficking makes a difference and has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment .
Rampant race crimes is in relation to white people being attacked by rioters because they are white , or intimidated into so sick show of subservience to roving gangs of blm rioters .

of course stats show that police kill far more white people than black for many years

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Overheal

iebamm2580 wrote: »

they get them the help they need. Hope that clears it up as im off out for the night, again i agree with the blm premise but as i have repeatedly said loons on every side need to be admonished.

I agree criminal justice should be equal parts retributive where it need be and reformative also. I don’t think the phrases “treat them like animals” help nurture the conversation across the divides here is all. Like yeah it’s cathartic to say but I don’t think it moves the needle forward. Anyway I think we can leave the subplot there on this. I think everyone here condemns the rioting and the looting and nobody is *genuinely* cheerleading the killing of anybody, I would hope that posts celebrating the deaths in Kenosha are themselves catharsis.

Overheal

mynamejeff wrote: »

it makes quite a difference. shooting at police in the course of their duty with a illegal firearm while involved in drug trafficking makes a difference and has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment .
Rampant race crimes is in relation to white people being attacked by rioters because they are white , or intimidated into so sick show of subservience to roving gangs of blm rioters .

of course stats show that police kill far more white people than black for many years

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

And with respect for demographics blacks are yet still 2.5x more likely to be killed by police

cfuserkildare

There are more Black people killed by black people than there are all the other races put together in the US.
So why don't Black Lives Matter campaigners do something about That??

mynamejeff

Tell me how wrote: »

What crime had Eric Garner committed that warranted him being killed?
What crime had Tamir Rice committed that warranted him being killed?
What crime had Breonna Taylor committed that warranted her being killed?
What crime had George Floyd committed that warranted him being killed?
What crime had Jacob Blake committed that warranted him being paralysed?

All acts above carried out by people expressively paid and instructed to keep people in society safe.

That is why there are protests. A police force cannot use excessive force or treat one sector of society in a different way to others.

Eric Garner was selling illegal smokes and refused to stop after many interactions. He died because he was grossly overweight
Tamir Rice was pointing a toy gun at passing cars , He died because the cop was afraid of being killed.
Breonna Taylor was heavily involved in drug trafficking and was caught in a gun fight between her bf and police acting on a lawful warrant. She put herself in that situation the police did not
George Floyd was a violent criminal engaged in crime while heavily intoxicated of fentanyl. He died because he was out of it on fentanyl and fought the police.
Jacob Blake died because he fought the police with a weapon and tried to flee or get another weapon . could have surrender at any time and saved his own life.

Ill post this again to show you the stats

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Overheal

cfuserkildare wrote: »

There are more Black people killed by black people than there are all the other races put together in the US.
So why don't Black Lives Matter campaigners do something about That??

What do you propose they do, that hasn’t been done?

It just comes off as whataboutism to belittle campaigning for public policy changes to bring about more equitable and humane policing practices. Perhaps when police can be clearly trusted and relied upon, people will be dramatically less inclined to take matters violently and lethally into their own hands in their own communities; perhaps that’s a worthy goal also?

Tell me how

cfuserkildare wrote: »

There are more Black people killed by black people than there are all the other races put together in the US.
So why don't Black Lives Matter campaigners do something about That??

Because, the police are an official body of the state who are specifically charged to protect people.

People always expect higher standards from official bodies and rightly so (take reaction to Golf Gate in Ireland for example).

And aside from that, people who are protesting on BLM marches, are no happier about violence carried out by people in their own communities but they recognize what can be changed and what should be the foundation of a decent society.

mynamejeff

Overheal wrote: »

And with respect for demographics blacks are yet still 2.5x more likely to be killed by police

while committing more than 50 percent of violent crime including murder is it surprising that blacks would have more contact with police or do you contest that fact also ?

Tell me how

biko wrote: »

And who kills police?

In 2019, there were 48 police officers who died in the line of duty during “felonious incidents.” Each is documented; some involved things such as car accidents during confrontations with suspects.

FBI data, indicate that 15 of the 49 identified suspects involved in those deaths were black — a figure comparable to the number of black people killed by police who were known to have been unarmed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/17/giuliani-falsely-claims-that-black-people-kill-more-police-than-vice-versa/

So why then aren't police more afraid of non-black people given that most of those who die at the hands of suspects are killed by non-black people.

Why then isn't there widespread footage of police 'pre-empting' attacks by non-blacks and shooting them?

Overheal

mynamejeff wrote: »

while committing more than 50 percent of violent crime including murder is it surprising that blacks would have more contact with police or do you contest that fact also ?

I have a lot to say about that fact yes but it’s been said before dozens of times now on this thread and many others. It’s an impressive stat to be sure but that is far from saying meaningful police reform is not an important goal. As I said if more trust could be made between communities and police I think we’d see dramatic changes in these data sets.

biko

Repost as I wanted to change the format

Who kills police? An possibly therefore is a greater threat?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2019/tables/table-42.xls
Law Enforcement Officers Feloniously Killed
Race, Ethnicity, and Sex of Known Offender, 2010–2019
Total 537
White 303
Black 199

Overheal

And who kills police?

In 2019, there were 48 police officers who died in the line of duty during “felonious incidents.” Each is documented; some involved things such as car accidents during confrontations with suspects.

FBI data, indicate that 15 of the 49 identified suspects involved in those deaths were black — a figure comparable to the number of black people killed by police who were known to have been unarmed.
https://www.washington...ice-than-vice-versa/

Does this mean cops are 2.5x more likely to be killed by blacks? Doesn’t look like it..

biko

It seems you are more likely to be killed by a white perp.

Tell me how

biko wrote: »

It seems you are more likely to be killed by a white perp.

That would indicate police actions are unacceptable.

Somebody should maybe start a movement to call for change in this respect.

Two options
A - Ask that more white people are pre-emptively shot.
B - Ask that police practices are changed so that less people are shot.

What to do, what to do.....

suicide_circus

biko wrote: »

It seems you are more likely to be killed by a white perp.

I should hope so, given that whites are 73% of the population and black folk are 13%.

From those figues, 56% of cop deaths are by white perps and 37% are by black perps.

gozunda

Tell me how wrote: »

What crime had Eric Garner committed that warranted him being killed?
What crime had Tamir Rice committed that warranted him being killed?
What crime had Breonna Taylor committed that warranted her being killed?
What crime had George Floyd committed that warranted him being killed?
What crime had Jacob Blake committed that warranted him being paralysed?
All acts above carried out by people expressively paid and instructed to keep people in society safe.

That is why there are protests A police force cannot use excessive force or treat one sector of society in a different way to others.

If that is so - why do these "protests" frequently devolve into attacks on their fellow citizens (of all races) and the destruction of property and places of work and not the 'police' like you claim.

Where are the protestors stopping this escalating violance and thuggery? Where are the condemnations? Videos online show such violence is regularly being touted by speakers and members of this movevent. And I see little or no condemnation by other protestors. And the violence against ordinary people now appears to be escalating.

Lets go with that - black people are angry at the police. However members of the movement are indiscrimately violently attacking others and property because they know if the police do anything - the social justice warriors and screamers will be up in arms. Then they are surprised when some are starting to fight back?

The current movement wouod appear to have little all to do with achieving justice 'for all' as they like to claim.

This has been explained to you many times and yet you persist in refusing to acknowledge same. Why is that?

1990sman

are the people of the world are being fooled into a hyperpolarised pseudo-civil war with dissent and ennui as indoctrinated decorations?

asking for a friend..

If he was just working in Kenosha that day. Why does he bring a gun to a swimming pool? Can any of ye explain this video or would it not suit your ideology?

https://mobile.twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1298657958205820928?s=20

Broadstone Bob

Deleted User wrote: »

If he was just working in Kenosha that day. Why does he bring a gun to a swimming pool? Can any of ye explain this video or would it not suit your ideology?

https://mobile.twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1298657958205820928?s=20

Read his lawyers statement.
https://twitter.com/infolibnews/status/1299545139187249153?s=20

BloodBath

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think there were members of the civil rights movement with convictions? Cause there were. I would say it's reasonable for such a movement to develop when Police officers suffocate people to death and shoot people in the back seven times.

You're attempting to delegitimise a movement of millions of people who have very real concerns. I'm guessing it's because you're in denial the issues even exist.

Why don't you go join the police force in the US and see what happens when you leave a suspect, a known rapist and woman beater, who ignores your commands while they run and reach into their car for something. You wouldn't last very long if you're going to wait for them to pull a gun and shoot first.

That's the reality of policing in the US. But of course he's blameless. This is nothing like the GF case, which I supported, and just an excuse to riot some more for some groups. By the letter of the law and police training they had the right to shoot him dead when he did that.

BattleCorp wrote: »

And nobody has any problem with those peaceful protests. I certainly don't.

What I have a problem with is the 10,000+ ar5eholes who burn and loot and otherwise act the boll1x.

It's far more than 10k. Only 10k arrests. Plenty of videos of mass lootings and destruction of property by large groups with no police in sight. The majority of vandals don't get arrested.

Deleted User wrote: »

Protests have firstly been largely peaceful. Black Americans face disproportionate treatment from the Police. This includes Police brutality. That's been recognized as an issue for decades and has resulted in deaths. These deaths include Eric Garner, Tamir Rice(who was only twelve) and Michael Brown.

In relation to available evidence, you're happy to label a movement of millions based on 3 people. No statistician would classify that as an acceptable sample size. You then attempted to use conviction levels of black people to bolster that argument. The logic would follow that you're happy to label black people in general as a bunch of criminals.

What are the odds of 3 people getting shot out of the large amount being there all having multiple convictions?

Tell me how wrote: »

They probably weren't going to travel to his house looking for him though were they.
Or if he hadn't shot people then they might not have had reason to try to subdue him.

They were already chasing and attempting to attack him before he shot anyone. Somebody else shot first too. Why do you ignore these facts? It shows clear bias.

Tell me how wrote: »

So, what would you suggest, people using guns in threatening behaviour should be allowed to do so because if you try to stop them, they might kill you?

Does that sound like a good approach for society?

No it doesn't but those are the gun laws in that state. You are allowed to carry AR's visibly even. I have issues with those laws myself but that's their problem. What kind of moron attempts to assault someone carrying an AR is a more valid question? Oh yes a convicted sex felon with multiple other violent convictions.

Tell me how wrote: »

It's literally the exact same scenario.

He shot at people, they attacked him to try to make him stop, he killed them.

If you're going to argue about this why don't you educate yourself on what actually happened first and the gun laws in the state in question. WTF are you doing here when you don't even know what happened?

Broadstone Bob

Broadstone Bob wrote: »

Read his lawyers statement.
https://twitter.com/infolibnews/status/1299545139187249153?s=20

Yet another extremist right wing Twitter account. Interesting people you follow on Twitter.

As far as I'm aware, Wisconsin doesn't have a stand your ground gun law. It has one to do with protecting your property. He didn't have any property in Kenosha. He didn't have any right to shoot people indiscriminately. I know he's only a kid but he'll be an old man before he gets out of prison.

Cody montana

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yet another extremist right wing Twitter account. Interesting people you follow on Twitter.

As far as I'm aware, Wisconsin doesn't have a stand your ground gun law. It has one to do with protecting your property. He didn't have any property in Kenosha. He didn't have any right to shoot people indiscriminately. I know he's only a kid but he'll be an old man before he gets out of prison.

Hopefully he never gets out.

statesaver

Tell me how wrote: »

What crime had Eric Garner committed that warranted him being killed?
What crime had Tamir Rice committed that warranted him being killed?
What crime had Breonna Taylor committed that warranted her being killed?
What crime had George Floyd committed that warranted him being killed?
What crime had Jacob Blake committed that warranted him being paralysed?

All acts above carried out by people expressively paid and instructed to keep people in society safe.

That is why there are protests. A police force cannot use excessive force or treat one sector of society in a different way to others.

If they had followed Police instructions they would be alive now, well maybe not George. The drugs in his system would of killed him.

Overheal

BloodBath wrote: »

Why don't you go join the police force in the US and see what happens when you leave a suspect, a known rapist and woman beater, who ignores your commands while they run and reach into their car for something. You wouldn't last very long if you're going to wait for them to pull a gun and shoot first.

how is he a “known rapist” when he is not convicted of such?

The funny thing here is they did wait. They pulled the guns on him then followed him around the car, allowing him to do so, waiting to intervene only after he was inside the car despite there being ample time to intervene before that.

That's the reality of policing in the US. But of course he's blameless. This is nothing like the GF case, which I supported, and just an excuse to riot some more for some groups. By the letter of the law and police training they had the right to shoot him dead when he did that.

yes that’s the rub and that’s why they march.

It's far more than 10k. Only 10k arrests. Plenty of videos of mass lootings and destruction of property by large groups with no police in sight. The majority of vandals don't get arrested.

I disagree with that. As you say those videos are evidence and since the start of the protests have been consistently used to make arrests on those individuals. Not to mention the mass arrests made in major cities by corralling protesters and rioters alike into closed off holding areas.

What are the odds of 3 people getting shot out of the large amount being there all having multiple convictions?

who knows but now the shooter will have multiple convictions also so they all have that in common.

They were already chasing and attempting to attack him before he shot anyone. Somebody else shot first too. Why do you ignore these facts? It shows clear bias.

there’s also the premeditation. I think it’s best left up to the courts either way now, he’s charged and in jail awaiting trial, best result going forward really.

No it doesn't but those are the gun laws in that state. You are allowed to carry AR's visibly even. I have issues with those laws myself but that's their problem. What kind of moron attempts to assault someone carrying an AR is a more valid question? Oh yes a convicted sex felon with multiple other violent convictions.

open carry law that doesn’t apply to a 17 year old.

If you're going to argue about this why don't you educate yourself on what actually happened first and the gun laws in the state in question. WTF are you doing here when you don't even know what happened?

The same thing as you presumably despite self admittedly living thousands of miles away and only knowing what others have shared with you.

Overheal

statesaver wrote: »

If they had followed Police instructions they would be alive now, well maybe not George. The drugs in his system would of killed him.

No he only had 11 ng/mL fentanyl in his system. It’s not what killed him.

suicide_circus

cant bate a bit of the auld fentanyl of a morning

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If he was just working in Kenosha that day. Why does he bring a gun to a swimming pool? Can any of ye explain this video or would it not suit your ideology?

https://mobile.twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1298657958205820928?s=20

I'd suggest it would be far more productive to let the law run it's course and decide the case on the actual evidence and not speculation.

Or perhaps - we should all follow the much touted 'ideology' of violence and thuggery to achieve retribution as demonstated by the actions of more than a few so called 'protestors'?

BloodBath

Overheal wrote: »

how is he a “known rapist” when he is not convicted of such?

The funny thing here is they did wait. They pulled the guns on him then followed him around the car, allowing him to do so, waiting to intervene only after he was inside the car despite there being ample time to intervene before that.

yes that’s the rub and that’s why they march.

I disagree with that. As you say those videos are evidence and since the start of the protests have been consistently used to make arrests on those individuals. Not to mention the mass arrests made in major cities by corralling protesters and rioters alike into closed off holding areas.

Who knows but now the shooter will have multiple convictions also so they all have that in common.

There’s also the premeditation. I think it’s best left up to the courts either way now, he’s charged and in jail awaiting trial, best result going forward really.

open carry law that doesn’t apply to a 17 year old.

The same thing as you presumably despite self admittedly living thousands of miles away and only knowing what others have shared with you.

The gun laws are a big problem that leads to minor situations escalating to murder or perceived self defense. I am 100% behind removing as many guns from civilians as possible but it's not exactly an easy thing to do in the US. Until those guns are removed the police training is not going to change.

They are still only catching a smaller percentage of a larger crime wave.

He's screwed himself. You would have a hard time arguing premeditation though unless they can find evidence that he went there with the intention of shooting people. A 17 year old carrying an AR through the streets should never be allowed to happen anywhere. The police or the attackers did not know he was 17 though.