BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

gozunda

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I would think a good way to ensure you don't get incidents (or rather, get less of them) is to spot check armed protesters and counter protesters looking for proof of the ownership of their weapons. Failure to do so frankly strikes me as just plain bad policing.

What I feel the shield bit is possibly indicative of, is a want to find a reason to arrest these people, which we have seen numerous instances of over these protests against people not doing anything to be arrested or attacked over.

Which makes Rittenhouse being allowed to walk even more outrageous. As you noted, he did not try to run and hide, and stood there with his hands up in guilt. The people in the street were shouting at them that he had shot people, and he wasn't denying it - being 17 he was likely just utterly bricking himself. Much like how the police seemed like they may have been determined to arrest those bringing food even if they had to make dubious claims about masks/shields to do so, they appear to have looked at Rittenhouse - armed with a gun following a gunfire incident - and decided he couldn't have done anything because he didn't fit the profile of the protesters. There is a bang of prejudging who is and is not guilty of crimes by the police on the street, based on their perceived political affiliations/side taken. It comes over as an appalling failure of the police, especially in the wake of the Jacob Blake incident in this same city that fuelled these riots to begin with.

To be clear I don't think the cops knew he was the shooter and decided to let him go anyway, I think they looked at his profile and decided (despite people shouting he was the shooter) that it wasn't him, despite the very visible gun strapped around his shoulder and multiple people roaring at them that he had done it. It looks like the latest in a lign line of horrendous policing seen across the US in recent months and years, rather than something like the incidents in Oregon and Philadelphia where police have coordinated with far right groups.

First of all and again I would take the article you linked and which a lot of that comes from with a large dose of salt.

As far as I can see the whole thing has a "bang" of absolute chaos and fear about it.

Fear of violence
Fear of looting
Fear of safety on all sides
Fearv of bad cops
Fear from threats being made against all races people / police / property owners

That city is on the verge of breakdiown tbh.
Minority populations such as Vietnamese are on record of trying to protect their business from being destroyed and looted.

And no I dont think it was surprising that Rittenhouse wasn't arrested amongst the chaos of protests and burning cars and gunshots and people screaming. Or that police didn't undertake proper checks on all those carrying arms. Yes it would be great if they did. Highly unlikely they have the manpower tbh.

And I believe in at least a number of such situations rightly or wrongly some police are looking at those who dont want to shoot or attack them as at least not wanting them dead. And the police can't win no matter what.

Its a sick situation fed by fear on all sides. Its made even worse by protesters raising buildings to the ground and attacking people , and their neighbourhoods and calling it 'reparation' - it all needs to be stopped before the whole thing descends into outright war.

Overheal

Foxtrol wrote: »

Seems like many are all for promoting and calling for battles until there are casualties.

There is absolutely no need to promote counter protests or using intimidation tactics on each other. It never ends well

https://twitter.com/FrankLuntz/status/1300123095097774080?s=20

It's the exact same coin as the guy who supported arson/rioting and then got upset when it happened to his city.

gozunda

Overheal wrote: »

It's the exact same coin as the guy who supported arson/rioting and then got upset when it happened to his city.

So are you referring to the protestors there?

I can see why everyone should be upset when neighbourhoods, places of work and people are attacked, buildings looted and burned. Tbh Cant think of any decent person who would think otherwise ...

BloodBath

Deleted User wrote: »

What!

Would you care to be a little more specific with your question?

Tell me how

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

The question that you and other posters ignore is
This picture shows a ARMED security guard at a Burger King in a 'black' neighborhood.
Is this a sign of Racism.

Wegmans uses off duty cops, with full uniform and gun as store security in white middle class neighbourhood's.

Is that a sign of a real life expectation that weapons are necessary on any given evening?

Snickers Man

BattleCorp wrote: »

I can't, and I really mean I can't understand why people don't do what the cops tell them.

Cop tells me to stop, I stop. Cop tells me to dance a jig, I dance a jig. It's pretty simple really. Do what you are told and you stand a 99.99% of not getting shot.

There is a problem with cops being trigger happy but there is an equally big problem with people being stupid fcukers and not following lawful instructions.

Do what you are told and you'll live.

The hallmark of a democracy.
Land of the free and the home of "Do what you're told or you forfeit the right to live."

:rolleyes:

Tell me how

BattleCorp wrote: »

I can't, and I really mean I can't understand why people don't do what the cops tell them.

Cop tells me to stop, I stop. Cop tells me to dance a jig, I dance a jig. It's pretty simple really. Do what you are told and you stand a 99.99% of not getting shot.

There is a problem with cops being trigger happy but there is an equally big problem with people being stupid fcukers and not following lawful instructions.

Do what you are told and you'll live.

Can you see how expecting people to do exactly what cops tell them in a situation where there are patently bad cops will lead to an escalating situation where cops treat people inappropriately up to and including violence until eventually people say enough is enough.

Which is exactly what has happened.

Respect is earned, it should never be taken as a given and most definitely anyone mistreating a sector of society has no right to demand people say 'how high' when they say 'jump'.

Manic Moran

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I have already clearly addressed MM's post, which shows that he would be required to own a hunting licence and to have passed an approved course in order to do so. At no point does he appear to have been asked for these, as police were too busy thanking him for being there with an assault rifle rather than checking that he was legally entitled to do so, whether he was the owner of the gun, or who he got it from. If the hunting exemption does not apply to rifles, Rittenhouse was carrying that gun illegally. If the hunting exemption does, police should check to ensure he is in compliance and not carrying the gun illegally.

Two points, here.

The first is that there is nothing in the legislation saying that a hunting license is required in order to be armed with a rifle when under 18. It may have been the intent of the legislators to do such a thing, but it is not there. It may also have been the intent of the legislators that an under 18 may only be armed with long guns out of the variety of weapons out there, but before they do so, they must have passed a firearms safety course. Note that one of the courses considered acceptable for the hunting license is military basic combat training, which has absolutely nothing to do with hunting, but does cover safe weapons handling. Is the intent of the course requirement to know when elk are in season, or to know how to safely handle a firearm? If the latter, then the act of hunting (or not) is irrelevant.

Secondly, police in most jurisdictions in the US are not permitted to randomly stop people who are openly displaying firearms and investigate the legality thereof. (Because most jurisdictions in the US permit open display of firearms). Unless they have an affirmative reason to believe the act to be unlawful, in a place where people can be openly armed, that's the end of it.

https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/civil-rights/297438-open-carry-complicates-police-encounters

One court observed that forcibly stopping a person openly carrying a weapon based on nothing more than the possibility that the person is safety risk is no different than stopping and searching a person for counterfeit bills based only on information that the person is carrying a wallet.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20200622/florida-court-recognizes-popularity-of-carry-permits-rules-police-cannot-use-possession-of-a-gun-as-sole-basis-for-investigatory-stops
An appellate court in Florida recently decided that a police officer who sees a firearm when approaching a citizen is not permitted to rely exclusively on the possession of the firearm as the justification for an investigatory stop and search

Wisconsin's constitutional protection on firearms is particularly strong.
"The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose."

Wisconsin DoJ specifically says that police can certainly ask a person openly displaying a firearm, but the person they are asking is under no obligation to answer.
From 2009: https://www.doj.state.wi.us/sites/default/files/2009-news/final-open-carry-memo-2009.pdf
An officer may approach and question someone as long as the questions, the circumstances and the officer's behavior do not convey to the subject that he must comply with the requests. Bostick, 501 U.S. at 435-36. The person approached need not answer any questions. As long as he or she remains free to walk away, there has been no intrusion on liberty requiring a particularized and objective Fourth Amendment justification. See Mendenhall, 446 U.S. at 554.

It's to the point that even if it turned out that the gun was illegally held, unless the police had reason to believe it was illegally held before asking questions, the conviction can be thrown out.
https://www.mcall.com/news/pennsylvania/mc-nws-pa-supreme-court-guns-20190531-aqfi6vkvbfbylc3l3ceu7qxe6e-story.html
The court ruled a police officer’s knowledge that a person is carrying a gun no longer constitutes reasonable suspicion to detain and investigate whether they’re licensed to do so. [...] “When many people are licensed to do something, and violate no law by doing that thing, common sense dictates that the police officer cannot assume that any given person doing it is breaking the law,” Justice David Wecht wrote in the court’s lead opinion.

Broadstone Bob wrote: »

I saw Rittenhouse's lawyer on twitter allude to some US code that says any able-bodied male from 17 - 45 who is part of an unofficial militia (official being the National Guard) as being able to carry a gun 9 (something like that). Not sure exactly what he was getting at but it was interesting and maybe a route he will go down.

I'm surprised they are taking that route, but it's the lawyer's job to throw everything at the wall. Only one thing need stick in order for him to succeed.
He's referring to Title 10 US Code section 246. "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."
It the part of the law which is what the draft/selective service relies upon. To my knowledge, nobody has ever seriously directly relied upon it in court, though it has come up in amicus briefs and tangentially in the past.

ThunbergsAreGo

Overheal wrote: »

https://twitter.com/mviser/status/1300154855546392577?s=20

I really want to like Biden but that's essentially a party political broadcast right there, too much mention of Trump makes it seem like point scoring - Trumpian almost

Still better then nothing, hopefully more including the president do the same.

Nobody in power has a clue of how to stop this.

Gerry Hatrick

Overheal wrote: »

https://twitter.com/mviser/status/1300154855546392577?s=20

Biden needs to get out and do interviews not release statements. This is 2020 Joe if he can't get out there front and centre and own his presidential run he's screwed.

Gerry Hatrick

weldoninhio wrote: »

Scum like that BLM leader who called the looting “reparations” show exactly what that movement is about.

“The Chicago Black Lives Matter organizer who justified looting as “reparation” has doubled down — insisting this week that even calling someone a criminal is “based on racism.”

Ariel Atkins told WBEZ that her group “100 percent” supports the violent looters who trashed chunks of the Windy City on Monday, again repeating her claim that it is “reparations.”

This kind of talk is getting Trump re-elected

ExMachina1000

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

I really want to like Biden but that's essentially a party political broadcast right there, too much mention of Trump makes it seem like point scoring - Trumpian almost

Still better then nothing, hopefully more including the president do the same.

Nobody in power has a clue of how to stop this.

Change of plan from team Biden. They have decided that he will hit the campaign trail after all.

Gerry Hatrick

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

This clip shows the guy shot last night didn't have a weapon on him ... how will the BLM crowd twist this one... the clip is hard to watch .. we get a Trumper over here bang bang

https://twitter.com/i/status/1300100292558516226

Sick. Good luck seeing that on CNN, RTE, BBC etc...

Trump needs to step up and take control of this mess.

ExMachina1000

Gerry Hatrick wrote: »

Sick. Good luck seeing that on CNN, RTE, BBC etc...

Trump needs to step up and take control of this mess.

China have made a 400 billion dollar deal with Iran. China will give them funds to develop infrastructure allowing them access to their vast mining resources.
In return China are set to be given a permanent base on the strait of hormuz with 5k Chinese soldiers and fighter jets stationed.
The strategic location gives China a foothold in the worlds most important oil shipping route. Other parts of the deal include Iran using Chinese 5g giant Huwai for future mobile network and 5g infrastructure .

Meanwhile the United states is falling apart.

BattleCorp

Foxtrol wrote: »

Call it whataboutism if you wish, what I wanted to do was test the consistency of the pro 'self defense' advocates and the silence of most and your flip flopping has said it all.

Where we've got to at this point is that apparently if you're trigger happy and you feel threatened you're happy for folks to do whatever they want.

Yes, that's exactly what I will call it - whataboutism.

You are trying to distract from the events in the KR shooting.

Was KR being chased - Your answer.........yes, but the van.
Did KR have something thrown at him - Your answer.......yes, but the van.

Did the people in the van shoot anybody? No. So it's not the same scenario.

And talk about flip-flopping. Here again is your quote from post #3858 where you agreed me that the level of reasonable force I was calling for in the van situation.

I'm fully in agreeing regarding the level of reasonable force you're calling for in this van situation, however it isn't at all consistent with arguments being made for KR's self defense

So, are we both trigger happy?

BattleCorp

Tell me how wrote: »

Respect is earned, it should never be taken as a given and most definitely anyone mistreating a sector of society has no right to demand people say 'how high' when they say 'jump'.

The problem with this though is that people are supposed to follow the lawful instructions of the police and you wouldn't need to be a MENSA member to know that if you follow the lawful instructions of the police, you stand a much lesser chance of getting your ass kicked.

Tell me how

Trump really has been the worst President of our life times. By some distance.

Complete and absolute ineptitude on both Covid 19 and the BLM protests.
Literally a modern day Nero.

Says a lot about the state of the country though that he might still win.

Munsterman12

Black power organisation supported by weak minded white people!

Munsterman12

Tell me how wrote: »

Trump really has been the worst President of our life times. By some distance.

Complete and absolute ineptitude on both Covid 19 and the BLM protests.
Literally a modern day Nero.

Says a lot about the state of the country though that he might still win.

He has been the best by far. The way he stands up to the radical left he great. He needs to squash BLM like a bug!

LessOutragePlz

Gerry Hatrick wrote: »

Sick. Good luck seeing that on CNN, RTE, BBC etc...

Trump needs to step up and take control of this mess.

He needs to restore law and order on the streets by taking down the violent mobs that are doing the looting and rioting.

LessOutragePlz

Tell me how wrote: »

Trump really has been the worst President of our life times. By some distance.

Complete and absolute ineptitude on both Covid 19 and the BLM protests.
Literally a modern day Nero.

Says a lot about the state of the country though that he might still win.

Not his fault he's offered federal help to states and cities that needed it but some states and cities have turned it down. Such as Ted Wheeler he is to blame for the chaos and carnage in Portland no one else and certainly not Trump.

https://twitter.com/tedwheeler/status/1299433988600156160?s=19

nullzero

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Not his fault he's offered federal help to states and cities that needed it but some states and cities have turned it down. Such as Ted Wheeler he is to blame for the chaos and carnage in Portland no one else and certainly not Trump.

https://twitter.com/tedwheeler/status/1299433988600156160?s=19

The feeling was that the support offered was to be carried out by the Waffen SS. People might be dying but at least Portland is Woke.

Cody montana

Munsterman12 wrote: »

He has been the best by far. The way he stands up to the radical left he great. He needs to squash BLM like a bug!

Killing a few hundred thousand of your own citizens to own the libs.

weldoninhio

Munsterman12 wrote: »

He has been the best by far. The way he stands up to the radical left he great. He needs to squash BLM like a bug!

I think once re-election is in the bag, he’ll come down hard and forcefully on BLM. At this stage they should be classified as domestic terrorists. Freeze their accounts and hit the leaders with serious charges. Squash any “uprising”.

LessOutragePlz

weldoninhio wrote: »

I think once re-election is in the bag, he’ll come down hard and forcefully on BLM. At this stage they should be classified as domestic terrorists. Freeze their accounts and hit the leaders with serious charges. Squash any “uprising”.

Yeah once he's back in the oval office for another 4 years he'll be able to crush the resistance and deal with any looters and rioters to the fullest extent of the law.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

I think once re-election is in the bag, he’ll come down hard and forcefully on BLM. At this stage they should be classified as domestic terrorists. Freeze their accounts and hit the leaders with serious charges. Squash any “uprising”.

And create a group of martyrs? Give BLM a foundation to fight against the federal government? Nah. That would be utterly self-destructive. Which is possible considering the way the US has gone, but unlikely.

Instead, they'll be discredited. The various offshoot BLM chapters will be linked, and examined for illegal activities. Financial records traced. Connections made with the dangers they represent to the US as a whole. Discredit the organisation and show the American people that they're not to be trusted. That makes more sense, and BLM have given plenty of ammo to justify such claims, due to the rhetoric that have come from them.

Combined with minor changes such as investment, and investigations/research to improve the lot of the African American and Black communities.

The Raging Bile Duct

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Yeah once he's back in the oval office for another 4 years he'll be able to crush the resistance and deal with any looters and rioters to the fullest extent of the law.

Considering we're on an Irish forum and we've our recent history to take as a comparison, do you think the heavy handed tactics of the British Army in the north were successful in stopping the Republican 'uprising' or do you think that those tactics actually enabled the paramilitary organisations to garner more sympathy from the wider, nationalist public?

LessOutragePlz

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Considering we're on an Irish forum and we've our recent history to take as a comparison, do you think the heavy handed tactics of the British Army in the north were successful in stopping the Republican 'uprising' or do you think that those tactics actually enabled the paramilitary organisations to garner more sympathy from the wider, nationalist public?

You can't compare our struggle for independence and the wars involved with some BLM protesters that are rioting and looting. Who are they fighting for independence against? Last time I checked America was a free country?

LessOutragePlz

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

You can't compare our struggle for independence and the wars involved with some BLM protesters that are rioting and looting. Who are they fighting for independence against? Last time I checked America was a free country?

Sure, he can... when talking about generating support for a movement, especially one that has links with civil rights. You're sidestepping the point he made.

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

And create a group of martyrs? Give BLM a foundation to fight against the federal government? Nah. That would be utterly self-destructive.

I don't think Trump cares who he upsets to be honest.