BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Manic Moran

[Edit]I've decided to delete the first part of my reply, as this is off-topic for the current subject. We can debate US gun control on one of the other threads.[/edit]

Snickers Man wrote: »

Are you weaseling again? For example, do any of the 1,000 or so fatal shootings by police in the US EVERY YEAR count as homicides, or are they just "cops doing their job"?

They are, indeed, homicides if the person on the receiving end died. I use the word "murder" above, though, which is different. At least 55 of them last year were prima facie questionable as the victims were unarmed. Interestingly, not much over the number of police who were shot to death last year. Of course, we do want to hold the police to a higher standard, and I do note than on average only 8 officers a year are charged with a killing which is a number certainly worth further investigation. I am not quite sure, however, how this tangent relates to the earlier point of the overall legalities of actions with firearms which started our discussion.

That figure is off the charts disgraceful for a supposed democracy. Fatal shootings by police in other advanced democracies are few and far between. In Ireland, there hasn't been one in nearly three years, and that was the only Garda fatal shooting that year. I can't remember when was the last one before that.

Agreed. Unfortunately, until American society manages to address the root causes of violence and crime, which we seem rather unwilling to do, the discrepancy will continue. We have a lot of guns in circulation, and more importantly, we seem to have a lot more people willing to use them illegally. Naturally this will result in more people being shot by police.

Indeed this whole uprising is just a culmination of people getting sick to the back teeth of their friends and neighbours being killed with impunity by law enforcement and saying "**** this ****! It's gotta stop! We don't care how ****ing "legal" you think it all is. It's still WRONG!!!"

No argument there, and I have my own opinions about police attitudes to police/citizen relations. I do have an issue, however, with a conflation of three entirely separate topics: The proclivity of parts of US society to choose to use unlawful violence and the police response to it, the proclivity of US police to consider themselves no longer a part of the population they are policing, and the proclivity of generally law-abiding folks to use firearms for lawful purposes. They are inter-related issues with causal relationships between them, certainly, but they are distinct and cannot be addressed as if they are one thing.

weldoninhio

Carfacemandog wrote: »

So why didn't they just say he was the land owner, instead of lying and pretending he was the business owner?

Do you think it has something tv o do with what foxtrol said in the post you quoted, or perhaps the fact that the business owner doesn't share the sentiment Trump is pushing?

Has he outright sold it? Renting it out? Leased it? Would be weird to outright sell part of the building you own, that you’d built up as a business while retaining the rest. If it’s a lease/rental, then he is still the owner.

BattleCorp

Tell me how wrote: »

Because the vast amount of protesters are behaving peacefully and in at least some cases, there is evidence that looting was instigated by subversives looking to incite.

I'm absolutely not absolving everyone in the movement, but as stated before, the ratio of peaceful protesters to non-peaceful seems to be at a ratio of about 2000:1

If this is the case, is it fair to suggest the BLM movement is a violent one? If there were ten times more violent people within the BLM movement, and the ratio was 200:1, it would still mean that 99.5% of people were peaceful. In such a scenario, would it be accurate to say it is a violently motivated movement?

Unfortunately the few bad apples give BLM a bad name, kind of like the few bad apples in the police give the police a bad name.

That's how it works. It's the same with gun owners. The vast majority of gun owners are law abiding but as soon as one of them goes into a school with a gun, suddenly gun owners are all demonised.

BattleCorp

Tell me how wrote: »

'There's good people on all sides' Said by the President after a White Supremacist rally

'I want him as President' Said by Ann Coulter about Kyle Riffenhouse after he killed two people.

“We are just going to go out and start slaughtering them f

---

n

---

,” said by an active cop, in a patrol car, this summer.

That's what the cops, politicians and right wing media commentators are coming out with.

I think we can all acknowledge that there are fcuking gobsh1tes on both sides, racists on both sides, and there are people willing to engage in criminality on both sides.

It's the people in the middle on both sides who need to question their involvement. If I supported a cause and some of my colleagues were clattering people from behind with bricks, burning down buildings etc., you can be sure that I'd be getting as far away from those types of 'protests' as possible.

BattleCorp

Foxtrol wrote: »

Agreed again. The problem is that it is a tiny minority that is doing those bad things you mentioned but Trump and the right wing media blow it completely out of proportion.

Peaceful protests don't drive ratings

Seriously dude, have you seen any of the pics of places after the riots? Some places are left looking like Mogadishu or the docks area of Beirut.

It's not like the damage is being made up.

1800_Ladladlad

A comedy sketch from 2013 .. . . .

https://twitter.com/prageru/status/1301180330494357507

Carfacemandog

weldoninhio wrote: »

Has he outright sold it? Renting it out? Leased it? Would be weird to outright sell part of the building you own, that you’d built up as a business while retaining the rest. If it’s a lease/rental, then he is still the owner.

The person Trump met with is the LAND owner. Why did they lie and pretend he was the BUSINESS owner when he is not?

If someone owns a property like a shopping centre or retail lot, they do not own call of the businesses inside. They own the land, which the business owners - who own the businesses - rent.

So why were they lying that this person was the business owner when that clearly wasn't the case?

Broadstone Bob

Very poor quality video of the LA shooting....

https://twitter.com/AttorneyCrump/status/1301238367821205505?s=20

Not justifying anything but this shows how fast things can go wrong for cops...

https://twitter.com/KarluskaP/status/1299354341090955267?s=20

Broadstone Bob

You can see he had his hands up at 4 seconds but still resisted when they went to arrest him. Weird.

edit: at 13 seconds he shoots him while facing each other. he did not shoot him in the back

BattleCorp

Carfacemandog wrote: »

The person Trump met with is the LAND owner. Why did they lie and pretend he was the BUSINESS owner when he is not?

If someone owns a property like a shopping centre or retail lot, they do not own call of the businesses inside. They own the land, which the business owners - who own the businesses - rent.

So why were they lying that this person was the business owner when that clearly wasn't the case?

When a landlord rents out a business premises to someone, that creates two businesses, one business being the activities of the tenant and the other being the activities of the landlord.

Renting out the building is the landlord's business and the building was burned down so therefore the landlord's business was burned down, as was the tenents business.

Carfacemandog

BattleCorp wrote: »

When a landlord rents out a business premises to someone, that creates two businesses, one business being the activities of the tenant and the other being the activities of the landlord.

Renting out the building is the landlord's business and the building was burned down so therefore the landlord's business was burned down, as was the tenents business.

Trump introduced the guy as the “owner of Rode’s Camera Shop", not the owner of the land on which the shop presides, not the former owner, and not the owner of a business which holds the land. He also did so after the actual owner of said camera shop denied a request from Trump's team to do so.

He could have said who the person he had in tow actually was, but intentionally lied to make it appear otherwise. There is no getting around it, it was just another of the 20,000+ lies Trump has told since entering the White House.

WrenBoy

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Trump introduced the guy as the “owner of Rode’s Camera Shop", not the owner of the land on which the shop presides, not the former owner, and not the owner of a business which holds the land. He also did so after the actual owner of said camera shop denied a request from Trump's team to do so.

He could have said who the person he had in tow actually was, but intentionally lied to make it appear otherwise. There is no getting around it, it was just another of the 20,000+ lies Trump has told since entering the White House.

So BLM didn't burn the place down ?
Or are you just mad that Trump was the one benefitting from this news and so make a big deal out of what doesn't amount to much really, business owner/property owner, its still his business getting burnt down for no reason.

weisses

BLM are a necessity

Another black man killed .... This time cops put a bag over his head after cuffing him .. watching him suffocate.

USA a Sick ****ing country

Carfacemandog

WrenBoy wrote: »

So BLM didn't burn the place down ?
Or are you just mad that Trump was the one benefitting from this news and so make a big deal out of what doesn't amount to much really, business owner/property owner, its still his business getting burnt down for no reason.

I see you're trying to deflect away from the fact that the guy wasn't the owner of the business Trump claimed, and that Trump knew it. Why didn't he refer to him as the property owner? Because it doesn't play as well with the crowd.

There is also the inconvenient fact that the actual owner of Rode's Camera Shop is in record saying he considers this a circus that he doesn't want any part of, and that he would like to see Trump trying to unite the country rather than divide it.

Doesn't play well with the base though, does it? So best to lie, as you're showing its not like Trumps base care about being lied to over and over anyway and will still blindly and unquestioningly defend him for doing so.

Carfacemandog

weisses wrote: »

BLM are a necessity

Another black man killed .... This time cops put a bag over his head after cuffing him .. watching him suffocate.

USA a Sick ****ing country

I read that this morning, it's a great example of why police who are trained as if they are in a war zone are not suited to deal with certain types of calls on their own. A mental health or social worker there, perhaps if even in tandem with police, would have made much more sense and likely lead to a better outcome.

Of course that would mean diverting some funds from the police to whichever body said person would work for, and apparently that would be the worst thing imaginable and lead to chaos in the streets.

weisses

weisses wrote: »

BLM are a necessity

Another black man killed .... This time cops put a bag over his head after cuffing him .. watching him suffocate.

USA a Sick ****ing country

Haven't seen the footage but read an article.

Calling a "spit hood" a bag, is unnecessary. The man they were detaining was mentally ill, and was spitting repeatedly at the officers while struggling. Those mesh hoods are designed specifically to prevent officers being spat on or bitten.

More evidence will come out so I am not stating definitively, but to accuse the officers of racism at this juncture is dishonest.

Burty330

Who saw Ireland AM this morning? A journalist called Gina London said Rittenhouse walked into the protest and opened fire. That's literally what she said.. Why is telling truths so hard for some people.
Watch the New York Times track the whole event if you want to see what really happened but im sure most people already know the reality at this stage.

https://twitter.com/TheGinaLondon/status/1301420667599048704

weisses

Deleted User wrote: »

Haven't seen the footage but read an article.

Calling a "spit hood" a bag, is unnecessary. The man they were detaining was mentally ill, and was spitting repeatedly at the officers while struggling. Those mesh hoods are designed specifically to prevent officers being spat on or bitten.

More evidence will come out so I am not stating definitively, but to accuse the officers of racism at this juncture is dishonest.

Footage below ....GRAPHIC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieqeWa6lOk0

BattleCorp

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Trump introduced the guy as the “owner of Rode’s Camera Shop", not the owner of the land on which the shop presides, not the former owner, and not the owner of a business which holds the land. He also did so after the actual owner of said camera shop denied a request from Trump's team to do so.

He could have said who the person he had in tow actually was, but intentionally lied to make it appear otherwise. There is no getting around it, it was just another of the 20,000+ lies Trump has told since entering the White House.

To be fair, he owns more than the land. He owns the building too. And he's out of pocket because of the actions of BLM supporters who burned down his building and robbed him of some of his livelihood.

weisses

weisses wrote: »

Footage below ....GRAPHIC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieqeWa6lOk0

Horrible footage. But, again, can't see any racial issue. If, according to that footage, New York were in the height of of a pandemic and a naked, agitated man was spitting on officers, I can't see how putting a spit hood on him was incorrect.

Pressing his face to the pavement may have been excessive but that footage is brief and devoid of context.

Again, there will be more details released but at this point, I don't see evidence of a lynching or any racially motivated misbehaviour from the police.

BattleCorp

Burty330 wrote: »

A journalist called Gina London said Rittenhouse walked into the protest and opened fire. That's literally what she said.. Why is telling truths so hard for some people.

I'd love for KR to hear that a reporter said that on TV and for him to sue her because that's not remotely what happened.

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

Horrible footage. But, again, can't see any racial issue. If, according to that footage, New York were in the height of of a pandemic and a naked, agitated man was spitting on officers, I can't see how putting a spit hood on him was incorrect.

Pressing his face to the pavement may have been excessive but that footage is brief and devoid of context.

Again, there will be more details released but at this point, I don't see evidence of a lynching or any racially motivated misbehaviour from the police.

There must be much more to that case because nothing the cops did on that short clip would seem to indicate that they did anything that could have caused yer man's death.

A spit hood is not a plastic bag. It is designed to allow someone to breathe through it.

WrenBoy

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I see you're trying to deflect away from the fact that the guy wasn't the owner of the business Trump claimed, and that Trump knew it. Why didn't he refer to him as the property owner? Because it doesn't play as well with the crowd.

There is also the inconvenient fact that the actual owner of Rode's Camera Shop is in record saying he considers this a circus that he doesn't want any part of, and that he would like to see Trump trying to unite the country rather than divide it.

Doesn't play well with the base though, does it? So best to lie, as you're showing its not like Trumps base care about being lied to over and over anyway and will still blindly and unquestioningly defend him for doing so.

What doesn't play well with the base is that cities are being burned down and innocent lives destroyed but all you and many seem to care about is catching Trump out in the most inconsequential detail of the whole thing. Who cares if he's the shop owner or the property owner !?? Is that really the problem here ?

AbusesToilets

He died.7 days later, so what relevance does the police putting a spot hood on him? Genuine question.

I hate reading of incidents when police are called for mental health issues, they're not trained for it. Sad indictment of the paucity of health care in the US.

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He died.7 days later, so what relevance does the police putting a spot hood on him? Genuine question.

I hate reading of incidents when police are called for mental health issues, they're not trained for it. Sad indictment of the paucity of health care in the US.

The only relevance I can see is that the placing of a hood by a white man on a black man makes it look like a stereotypical lynching and is incredibly bad optics considering more recent events.

It will be used and trotted out as such and that's really not right.

Fr Tod Umptious

Interesting piece here on the BBC about Portland

So as it turns out Portland is one of the whitest cities in American, due to various laws preventing black people living there going back before the civil war.

Any black people living there were always on the margins and the areas they used to live in are now becoming gentrified and they are being pushed out even more.

One line caught my eye in particular

Portland is a place that pushes black people out of neighbourhoods and replaces them with 'Black Lives Matter' signs."

It's actually so white that it's totally blind to the actual issues that affect black people.

It kind of sums up the whole thing, well off white people feeling good about themselves by "supporting" black causes, without any consideration of the black causes.

And the other point is that the local (Democrat) government in Portland are trying to paint it as anti-Trump thing.

They need to get their own s**t in order first.

Carfacemandog

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I see you're trying to deflect away from the fact that the guy wasn't the owner of the business Trump claimed, and that Trump knew it. Why didn't he refer to him as the property owner? Because it doesn't play as well with the crowd.

Former owner of the business, and the current owner of the property (which would be the land and the building itself).

You really want to get outraged over this?

Simple truth is that as the owner of property he stands to lose on revenue, and as the former owner of the business itself, he can still remark on the loss because of the damage to the property... due to his experience previously running the business.

I swear people will bend over backwards to find something to be outraged over.

There is also the inconvenient fact that the actual owner of Rode's Camera Shop is in record saying he considers this a circus that he doesn't want any part of, and that he would like to see Trump trying to unite the country rather than divide it.

And if his own intention/desire was for the uniting of the country, he could have supported Trump. Instead, he chose to highlight the story, encourage further criticism of Trump, and increase those divisions himself. Ahh yes, because uniting the country can only happen if people stand against Trump?

Doesn't play well with the base though, does it? So best to lie, as you're showing its not like Trumps base care about being lied to over and over anyway and will still blindly and unquestioningly defend him for doing so.

What is so dangerous about this "lie"? No, seriously. If this story hadn't been raised, what is the danger to Trump parading about the damage to the building? After all, the damage happened. Is Trump lying about how the damage happened?

Mr. Karate

BattleCorp wrote: »

There must be much more to that case because nothing the cops did on that short clip would seem to indicate that they did anything that could have caused yer man's death.

A spit hood is not a plastic bag. It is designed to allow someone to breathe through it.

Much like George Floyd that guy was probably hopped on so much drugs that it caused his death more than anything the Police did.

weisses

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He died.7 days later, so what relevance does the police putting a spot hood on him? Genuine question.

I hate reading of incidents when police are called for mental health issues, they're not trained for it. Sad indictment of the paucity of health care in the US.

Ambulance crew tried to resuscitate him brought him to Hospital but was put off life support after a week ... He died as a result of asphyxiation ... Lets say the bag over his head and the actions of the cop didn't help, as was being high on pcp

Defunding the police and allocate the money so these cases can be dealt with by people who are trained and employed to provide proper care is what is needed

weisses

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Much like George Floyd that guy was probably hopped on so much drugs that it caused his death more than anything the Police did.

And you got your medical degree where exactly ??