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BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]
Comments
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[Deleted User] wrote: »Because they want to?
Giving up part of the US so that they could create an independent nation would still mean leaving America.
Apologies, I hadn't read through the Twitter post those boys are clowns and potentially dangerous clowns.
That is why I think there should be a concerted effort to get the black community involved in mainstream politics at all levels of government.
This will require effective leadership to emerge from within the black community as well as real efforts to tackle poverty, and social inequality.
It seems to me black communities feel excluded from power and society in general. This has lead to a spiral of crime and an attitude of what's the point.
Poor white people are also excluded from the political system but because the American dream has been so well sold to them they still feel part of it. In my opinion that was the con that Trump sold. He would MAGA and solve their problems why else would poor people be so idealogically opposed to things like health care or welfare. Ireland would be seen as virtually communist in their mindset.
It is a complex mess. I am largely in agreement with BLM as a generic movement to protest police brutality but without coherent and intelligent leadership they will either break up into various factions or become an extremist group which will lose public support. (Evidence that is already happening) Abolishing police is an example of that stupidity.
I think they need to capitalise on the large amount of positive support they have garnered so far and become more vocal in mainstream politics. They should not let the extremists be their voice.0 -
Apologies, I hadn't read through the Twitter post those boys are clowns and potentially dangerous clowns.
That is why I think there should be a concerted effort to get the black community involved in mainstream politics at all levels of government.
This will require effective leadership to emerge from within the black community as well as real efforts to tackle poverty, and social inequality.
It seems to me black communities feel excluded from power and society in general. This has lead to a spiral of crime and an attitude of what's the point.
Poor white people are also excluded from the political system but because the American dream has been so well sold to them they still feel part of it. In my opinion that was the con that Trump sold. He would MAGA and solve their problems why else would poor people be so idealogically opposed to things like health care or welfare. Ireland would be seen as virtually communist in their mindset.
It is a complex mess. I am largely in agreement with BLM as a generic movement to protest police brutality but without coherent and intelligent leadership they will either break up into various factions or become an extremist group which will lose public support. (Evidence that is already happening) Abolishing police is an example of that stupidity.
I think they need to capitalise on the large amount of positive support they have garnered so far and become more vocal in mainstream politics. They should not let the extremists be their voice.
Obama was president for 8 years.0 -
The WLM slogan is a reactionary slogan used predominately by sections of the white supremacist movement and repeated by people who either don't understand it or don't care about its absurdity. There is systemic racism in the US, the idea that there is racial equality is utterly absurd, the idea that white people suffer anything like the discrimination and the consequences of such is laughable.
In what way are they discriminated against, is it a conscious institutional/systemic discrimination over generations?
Show me systemic racism. What laws or systems are in place to favour white people?0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Obama was president for 8 years.
Margaret Thatcher was prime minister is the 80s that doesn't mean women were equally represented in UK politics in the 80s.
Obama was a very charismatic politician and had widespread appeal. You're right though I thought Obama's election represented an real shift in American society and it was an optimistic time. 2016 shattered that optimism.
Black people should be better represented at all levels of government and I fully accept the leadership to do this must come from within the black community.
Any strategies or policies which help to encourage this should be used. I don't for one minute claim to have all the answers, but surely a country with America's resources can solve or reduce all their social and racial issues.
Militarised policing may have a role to play but that should not be the only policing on offer.0 -
Margaret Thatcher was prime minister is the 80s that doesn't mean women were equally represented in UK politics in the 80s.
Obama was a very charismatic politician and had widespread appeal. You're right though I thought Obama's election represented an real shift in American society and it was an optimistic time. 2016 shattered that optimism.
Black people should be better represented at all levels of government and I fully accept the leadership to do this must come from within the black community.
Any strategies or policies which help to encourage this should be used. I don't for one minute claim to have all the answers, but surely a country with America's resources can solve or reduce all their social and racial issues.
Militarised policing may have a role to play but that should not be the only policing on offer.
What percentage of politicians should be black? What percentage of politicians should be Asian? What percentage of politicians should be native American?
Why does your race come into your political ability?
It's further feeding into the "only black people can fix black problems". It's a new version of segregation.0 -
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[Deleted User] wrote: »What percentage of politicians should be black? What percentage of politicians should be Asian? What percentage of politicians should be native American?
Why does your race come into your political ability?
It's further feeding into the "only black people can fix black problems". It's a new version of segregation.
The current setup isn't working. 50 years since civil rights and racial tensions are still to the fore in the US. I'm trying to suggest solutions because the status quo isn't working.
Representation is important in politics. Look at the controversy in Ireland with no ministers from Donegal to Limerick. Should make no difference but some got upset.
It is easy for a group to be disaffected if they feel they have no voice.
As I said there are no easy answers but I do feel better representation is vital. People are already represented on a geographical basis.
I'm not suggesting quotas just helping develop a sense of belonging to the political establishment, that is missing for so many, not just blacks, in America.
Listen I don't have answers "but keep doing the same thing and expecting different results"....0 -
You don't actually understand what institutional racism is. You also complete ignore how Obama won that election. It wasn't with people over 45 anyway, that's for certain. Also, his opponent's both times were pretty terrible.Chris_Heilong wrote: »What are you talking about, remember Obama was the most powerful man in America only a few years ago, a black man so there goes all the institutional racism BS out the window for any logical person.
The only hole they are in I would say is a poverty issue, they are poor which leads to crime in their community, a lot of white people in America are in the same situation.
If a white guy with a high school education and dressed as a rapper speaking poor English and a Black collage educated student wearing a suit and speaking very clearly went to a job interview who is more likely to get the job?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Show me systemic racism. What laws or systems are in place to favour white people?
Are you serious?
Average Balck worker earns 60% of average white worker.
Overall income for Blacks is in the region of 40% lower than whites.
Lack of representation in politics - One tenth of the US Congree is Black!
Have you heard of redlining, to keep AA out of white neighbourhoods.
Look at the numbers of Black CEOs there are...the list goes on.
No serious person would argue for a moment that there isn't systemic racism in the US..0 -
Deleted User wrote: »What percentage of politicians should be black? What percentage of politicians should be Asian? What percentage of politicians should be native American?
Why does your race come into your political ability?
It's further feeding into the "only black people can fix black problems". It's a new version of segregation.Why does your race come into your political ability?
By that logic the underrepresentation of the above mentioned peoples indicates that they have far less 'political ability' than whites - are you seriously putting that forward?It's further feeding into the "only black people can fix black problems". It's a new version of segregation.
I'm not sure that anyone is arguing that but it's definitely the case that people from particular communities have a better understanding of the lives of people in those communities than those from outside.0 -
Don't forget about all that gerrymandering too!Are you serious?
Average Balck worker earns 60% of average white worker.
Overall income for Blacks is in the region of 40% lower than whites.
Lack of representation in politics - One tenth of the US Congree is Black!
Have you heard of redlining, to keep AA out of white neighbourhoods.
Look at the numbers of Black CEOs there are...the list goes on.
No serious person would argue for a moment that there isn't systemic racism in the US..0 -
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Are you serious?
Average Balck worker earns 60% of average white worker.
Overall income for Blacks is in the region of 40% lower than whites.
Lack of representation in politics - One tenth of the US Congree is Black!
Have you heard of redlining, to keep AA out of white neighbourhoods.
Look at the numbers of Black CEOs there are...the list goes on.
No serious person would argue for a moment that there isn't systemic racism in the US..
One tenth of American Congress is black. Do you know what percentage of Americans are black? 13.4% I think I saw.
Seems quite close and representative.
I'll have a closer look into those stats and get back to you. Ever since the gender pay gap stuff, I'm hesitant to believe pay gap statistics as they tend to not show the full picture.
I know affirmative action (much like feminism) used to be ensuring equality of opportunity but now has been pivoted into equality of outcome. I'm not a fan of that or any decision which favours any person based on skin colour.
There are no laws in America that I am aware of that prevents any person based on the colour of their skin to have less rights than others.0 -
Apologies, I hadn't read through the Twitter post those boys are clowns and potentially dangerous clowns.
Okie dokie.That is why I think there should be a concerted effort to get the black community involved in mainstream politics at all levels of government.
They already are. There are black people in all manner of roles throughout the government. The difference being that these black people typically feel little connection with the Black people in the projects.
Which is why this focus on race is so inaccurate when talking about the issues facing black people and America.This will require effective leadership to emerge from within the black community as well as real efforts to tackle poverty, and social inequality.
Ahh well. They've had plenty of opportunities for that to happen, and typically, those people leave, never to return. As for real efforts, the reason that they've failed to tackle them, is because they refuse to face up to the real issues affecting the black community. Not only does the system need to change. Black people themselves need to change.It seems to me black communities feel excluded from power and society in general. This has lead to a spiral of crime and an attitude of what's the point.
Whereas I feel that poor parenting, a lack of positive core values, a weakness in culture to promote the negative aspects of that culture, the focus on being victims, while encouraging them to be aggressive in their language/gestures, have all contributed to the spiral of crime, and the attitude of what's the point. When you don't respect yourself, don't respect each other, then it's easy not to respect those who are different than you.
That's what I've learned from this BLM movement and it's influence over the black community... A serious lack of respect all around.Poor white people are also excluded from the political system but because the American dream has been so well sold to them they still feel part of it. In my opinion that was the con that Trump sold. He would MAGA and solve their problems why else would poor people be so idealogically opposed to things like health care or welfare. Ireland would be seen as virtually communist in their mindset.
Trump is extremely well liked by the average poor white guy because he's actually trying to return jobs to them. He's been trying to rebuild America's manufacturing base, which caters heavily to unskilled labor... other presidents did their best to move away from supporting manufacturing. I understand the dislike for Trump, but I won't join in on the hate. And from an economic and social POV, I can completely understand the dislike of welfare, and free healthcare. The cost never goes down, and only increases.It is a complex mess. I am largely in agreement with BLM as a generic movement to protest police brutality but without coherent and intelligent leadership they will either break up into various factions or become an extremist group which will lose public support. (Evidence that is already happening) Abolishing police is an example of that stupidity.
I think they need to capitalise on the large amount of positive support they have garnered so far and become more vocal in mainstream politics. They should not let the extremists be their voice.
Whereas I find them to be a black supremacist organisation with links to hardline feminism, and more extremist militant groups. They've always been this way, and I've been amazed at the willingness to dismiss their past, just because of what happened with George Floyd.
Black people need to start respecting themselves and others. Return to the civil rights movement of Martian L King. Stop with the victim complex, and aggressive attitudes. Seek equality because they are equal.. not because they want to punish the white man.0 -
. In my opinion that was the con that Trump sold. He would MAGA and solve their problems.
Many people on the Left felt that way when Obama won [Peggy the Moocher anyone?] One side feeling "Happy Days are here again." when their side wins is nothing new. Its probably been going on since most of us here were born so its silly to blame Trump for this.0 -
By that logic the underrepresentation of the above mentioned peoples indicates that they have far less 'political ability' than whites - are you seriously putting that forward?
I'm not sure that anyone is arguing that but it's definitely the case that people from particular communities have a better understanding of the lives of people in those communities than those from outside.
Absolutely not. I'm putting forward the opposite. Race should not come into anyone's political ability. There is nothing at all racist about democratically elected officials. Anyone can run. Underrepresentation is not a factor. Why should there be equal representation of races unless you believe that a person of a different colour doesn't represent you?
Can you imagine the uproar if the media complained that a black person was a elected as a governor because they weren't representative of white people?0 -
Are you serious?
Average Balck worker earns 60% of average white worker.
Overall income for Blacks is in the region of 40% lower than whites.
Yup. Based entirely on population without consideration of an individuals educational background, scores, networking etc.
The simple fact is that US education costs a lot of money. The majority of Black people come from lower income groups, so they can't afford the costs or get the loans to attend the better institutions. Many lose their funding while in university, and drop out. Without comparable education, any claim to racism in finding jobs is being rather biased.
Is it unfair? Sure, it is. It's not systematic racism, because the same problems exist for poor white people. Does discrimination and racism exist? Yes, it does... but it's not as organised as people want to believe. The world is not that simple.Lack of representation in politics - One tenth of the US Congree is Black!
Again. Wealth. US Politics is directly tied to the money you can bring to the table. Those lacking the money, won't get the political support to do much.Have you heard of redlining, to keep AA out of white neighbourhoods.
Yup. I have. Again, economics, and risk.Look at the numbers of Black CEOs there are...the list goes on.
So Black people should start more of their own businesses? It's the same problem with female CEOs. It takes time, qualifications, skill, and determination to reach such lofty heights. We're talking about the top 1% of any population. How many white people never reach such positions? Many.
But since you're concerned with race, and feminists are concerned with gender, nobody wants to consider the sheer number of people who fail to reach those positions because they just weren't good enough.No serious person would argue for a moment that there isn't systemic racism in the US..
Depends on what you mean by a serious person. I'd argue it's only there in some cases.... and a lot of the time people are complaining about it when they should be considering economics, and culture.0 -
In what way are they discriminated against, is it a conscious institutional/systemic discrimination over generations?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=695958617082531&set=a.251824528162611&type=30 -
Chris_Heilong wrote: »What are you talking about, remember Obama was the most powerful man in America only a few years ago, a black man so there goes all the institutional racism BS out the window for any logical person.
The only hole they are in I would say is a poverty issue, they are poor which leads to crime in their community, a lot of white people in America are in the same situation.
If a white guy with a high school education and dressed as a rapper speaking poor English and a Black collage educated student wearing a suit and speaking very clearly went to a job interview who is more likely to get the job?
One black man gets elected president and poof all the institutional racism is just gone? Eh, think again. Even he’s been pulled over by the cops and it could have been his last at any time too. Senator Tim Scott, as well, gets pulled over. We even still have institutional slavery ffs, in the prison industry.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Yup. Based entirely on population without consideration of an individuals educational background, scores, networking etc.
The simple fact is that US education costs a lot of money. The majority of Black people come from lower income groups, so they can't afford the costs or get the loans to attend the better institutions. Many lose their funding while in university, and drop out. Without comparable education, any claim to racism in finding jobs is being rather biased.
Is it unfair? Sure, it is. It's not systematic racism, because the same problems exist for poor white people. Does discrimination and racism exist? Yes, it does... but it's not as organised as people want to believe. The world is not that simple.
Again. Wealth. US Politics is directly tied to the money you can bring to the table. Those lacking the money, won't get the political support to do much.
Yup. I have. Again, economics, and risk.
So Black people should start more of their own businesses? It's the same problem with female CEOs. It takes time, qualifications, skill, and determination to reach such lofty heights. We're talking about the top 1% of any population. How many white people never reach such positions? Many.
But since you're concerned with race, and feminists are concerned with gender, nobody wants to consider the sheer number of people who fail to reach those positions because they just weren't good enough.
Depends on what you mean by a serious person. I'd argue it's only there in some cases.... and a lot of the time people are complaining about it when they should be considering economics, and culture.
Gee I remember they tried that. They were razed to the ground. Black people with wealth are viewed with suspicion, it is automatically assumed in many cases it was ill gotten. Hence why so many black drivers are pulled over in higher end vehicles.
Indeed it takes time but they are 400 years behind, and their competition rose off the back of black labor.0 -
here one of ur bros...Gee I remember they tried that. They were razed to the ground. Black people with wealth are viewed with suspicion, it is automatically assumed in many cases it was ill gotten. Hence why so many black drivers are pulled over in higher end vehicles.
Indeed it takes time but they are 400 years behind, and their competition rose off the back of black labor.
https://www.thenational.ae/uae/courts/dubai-police-reveal-role-in-arrest-of-alleged-fraudster-hushpuppi-after-dh150m-seizure-1.10391440 -
Are you serious?
Average Balck worker earns 60% of average white worker.
Overall income for Blacks is in the region of 40% lower than whites.
Lack of representation in politics - One tenth of the US Congree is Black!
Have you heard of redlining, to keep AA out of white neighbourhoods.
Look at the numbers of Black CEOs there are...the list goes on.
No serious person would argue for a moment that there isn't systemic racism in the US..
None of these things are proof of systemic racism, not even close. You're acting like it's so apparent, yet you give no examples that make it apparent.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
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None of these things are proof of systemic racism, not even close. You're acting like it's so apparent, yet you give no examples that make it apparent.
I note you made no counter-argument!None of these things are proof of systemic racism, not even close
Explain it so. US society is one of the most unequal societies in the world and that poverty and inequality is class based but even so the points I made illustarte that AA people suffer disproportionally, why is that, are you suggesting race plays no role?
Are you suggesting that a society that where segregation in schools survived until the 1960s and voting rights for AA were only achieved around the same time has some how devolved itself of all systemic racism?
Are you watching what is taking place in the US, Trump is playing the race card precisely because it appeals to a whole section of his base...0 -
I note you made no counter-argument!
Explain it so. US society is one of the most unequal societies in the world and that poverty and inequality is class based but even so the points I made illustarte that AA people suffer disproportionally, why is that, are you suggesting race plays no role?
Are you suggesting that a society that where segregation in schools survived until the 1960s and voting rights for AA were only achieved around the same time has some how devolved itself of all systemic racism?
Are you watching what is taking place in the US, Trump is playing the race card precisely because it appeals to a whole section of his base...
And yet,
The funny thing is,
we Don't Live In America!!!0 -
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[Deleted User] wrote: »What percentage of politicians should be black? What percentage of politicians should be Asian? What percentage of politicians should be native American?
Why does your race come into your political ability?
It's further feeding into the "only black people can fix black problems". It's a new version of segregation.
Depends. How comfortable are you with other groups representing your interests? For example, would you be happy with feminists being in charge of addressing equality between men and women? Or would you prefer if people representing men's issues were also involved?0 -
Gee I remember they tried that. They were razed to the ground. Black people with wealth are viewed with suspicion, it is automatically assumed in many cases it was ill gotten. Hence why so many black drivers are pulled over in higher end vehicles.
"According to the most recent census figures from 20171, there were over 2 million African American-owned firms in the United States. 124,000 of those firms are what the Census Bureau calls, 'employer firms', of which there are a total of 6 million in the U.S. 32% of those 124,000 African American employer firms are in health care and social services."
"Black-owned businesses account for a substantial amount of U.S. revenue. The top 100 African American-owned companies together generated almost $30 billion in revenues and employed more than 71,000 workers in 2018, according to Black Enterprise5. Most of these firms have been established in the last few decades, and many are still led by their entrepreneurial founders"Indeed it takes time but they are 400 years behind, and their competition rose off the back of black labor.
They're not 400 years behind unless these people have a lifespan of 400+ years. It's an often used excuse. Black people have disadvantages due to their economic and cultural backgrounds, but many of those disadvantages are encouraged by the belief in being victims.
It ignores all those black people who have made successes of themselves in creating businesses or establishing successful careers.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Depends. How comfortable are you with other groups representing your interests? For example, would you be happy with feminists being in charge of addressing equality between men and women? Or would you prefer if people representing men's issues were also involved?
Depends. If you think black people and white people are homogeneous groups then I can see why you would think like that.
I would be highly uncomfortable with feminists in charge of equality, but would have no issue with women being in charge. I would not be happy if men were placed in there for gender balance instead of being there on merit.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Depends. If you think black people and white people are homogeneous groups then I can see why you would think like that.
I would be highly uncomfortable with feminists in charge of equality, but would have no issue with women being in charge. I would not be happy if men were placed in there for gender balance instead of being there on merit.
OK. But equally I could say you're looking at the genders as homogenous groups.
Couldn't an almost entirely feminist Parliament look after all equality issues as well as an almost entirely white Parliament can look after all the citizens? Or is it just a problem then the political bias might not be in your favour?0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »OK. But equally I could say you're looking at the genders as homogenous groups.
Couldn't an almost entirely feminist Parliament look after all equality issues as well as an almost entirely white Parliament can look after all the citizens? Or is it just a problem then the political bias might not be in your favour?
I'm not though. I would have no problem with majority women in power but I would have an issue with mostly feminists in power. I include male feminists in that.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I'm not though. I would have no problem with majority women in power but I would have an issue with mostly feminists in power. I include male feminists in that.
I'd be pretty much the same... if people were getting positions due to skill/experience/suitability for the job... and it just turned out that women were more likely to be that, i'd be okay with it.
TBH it's been a big part of my life already. Virtually all my managers while in Finance were female (as were colleagues), and now as a teacher/lecturer, most of the time my bosses are female (as were colleagues)0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Absolutely not. I'm putting forward the opposite. Race should not come into anyone's political ability. There is nothing at all racist about democratically elected officials. Anyone can run. Underrepresentation is not a factor. Why should there be equal representation of races unless you believe that a person of a different colour doesn't represent you?
Can you imagine the uproar if the media complained that a black person was a elected as a governor because they weren't representative of white people?Race should not come into anyone's political ability.
I quite agree but it does as it does with gender.There is nothing at all racist about democratically elected officials.
Of course not but if there is an underrepresentation of people of colour, women etc then it's reasonable to ask why?Underrepresentation is not a factor.
Says who?Why should there be equal representation of races unless you believe that a person of a different colour doesn't represent you?
I suppose one could flip that and ask why shouldn't there be equal representation?Why should there be equal representation of races unless you believe that a person of a different colour doesn't represent you?
That's from the same playbook as 'All/White Lives Matter' and it should be treated with the contempt such ignorant ahistorical nonsense deserves.0
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