BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Foxtrol

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

And the vast majority of them dont do that, but take this post as an example you are spinning it as if some sort of evil force is out there murdering at will, which simply isnt true, that post is also very hyperbolic and completely ignores the precursors to all those situations,

You ll find in most of those cases that the victims brought trouble on themselves and were exactly the perfect victims they are being made out to be, now that doesnt mean they deserved to be killed but its to highlight that there are infact 2 sides of the story and your view is very unfair on the police and heavily biased towards BLM.

So are you saying the cops were right in every situation I listed?

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

Its a really interesting dynamic on this thread, you have BLM shouting from the roof tops about any perceived injustice, but at the same time they willfully turn a blind eye or minimize anything negative that BLM do? Not picking a side but its just weird to see people that see themselves as trying to "better the world" and be about "equality" completely ignore selected stuff really strange and biased take up one side of the arguement its kinda counter productive!

I know you are new here (;)) but can you give evidence to people consistently turning a blind eye or minimizing anything negative that BLM do?

The same point was made yesterday that I never did so in the, at this point, hundreds of posts I have made. I was able to point out 3 examples from just the couple hours before that accusation was made where I had specifically denounced any illegal activities.

Now, let me give you a summary of my arguments on this thread.

All those who riot are wrong.
All those who loot are wrong.
All those who use violence are wrong.
All those who do any of the above should be charged and prosecuted.
The ratio of those who are protesting peacefully versus those who are rioting is in the region of 2000:1.

There is racism ingrained within at least some of the members of many police forces in the US.
Black people are dis-proportionally targeted as an outcome of this.
Excessive and preemptive use of lethal force frequently results in the deaths of individuals at the hands of police.
Proportionally, this again happens to more black people than white.
Irrespective of the colour of the police involved, the current standard operational procedures used by police forces within the US escalate towards physical confrontation, violence and/or lethal force.

There is no doubt that largely black areas experience more crime and violence than largely white areas.
There is no doubt that this is, at least to a very significant degree, an outcome of decades of prejudicial treatment which has increased the likelihood that residents will be involved, or be infected by this.
This prejudicial treatment includes the practice of redlining, it includes a judicial system which operates in a way that black people are much more likely to spend time in prison, it includes less funding or access to education.
It is self-exacerbated whereby the outcome of a criminal conviction, even as a teenager, will very severely impact that persons opportunities for the rest of their lives thus increasing the likelihood that they will turn to crime.

The police are an official arm (or agent, if you wish) of the state.
They are a public body.
They are paid for with public funds.
Their specific purpose is there to keep people safe.
A significant portion of the population feel less safe around these very people hired to make them feel safe.
The manner in which they do their business needs to be rethought in very significant ways.

Those against the BLM movement here seem to have a consistency of positions;
That batons/tazers/guns are a preferred approach than de-escalation or dialogue.
That it is acceptable for the police to carry out extra judicial killings.
That murder is an acceptable outcome of someone destroying a building.
That destroying a building is not an acceptable outcome of murder.
That society should react to the frequent cases of inappropriate police behaviour by increasing their funding even more.
That it is more important for police to be funded than it is for teachers or healthcare staff to be funded.

The correlation between how these protests are being viewed and reacted to and how the civil rights marches of the 60's were viewed and reacted to are so similar, they could nearly be the same event.
I suspect that all people on all sides of this current discussion would have been on the corresponding sides in the 60's also.
The continued acceptance of what is going on, the use of the same solutions which have been tried for decades and the outright refusal to accept any need for police reform will lead to a continued division within the supposedly richest country in the world which could very possibly be a factor towards outright armed conflict between groups of its citizens. The current President is an instigator in things moving in this direction.

In terms of how societies within the human race have evolved, it has thankfully, with some very significant relapses, been in the direction of eventual progress and ultimately that will be seen here. It won't be today or tomorrow or a quick fix, but it will happen.

gozunda

Foxtrol wrote: »

Black people polled have consistently showed around 85% support for the BLM movement over the last few months.

Hard to find anything the white community feels that strongly about.

Really? You got that of the back of a cornflakes packet?

Btw where did I state that blm does not have support?

Leaving aside the issue of some black people being afraid to speak out against the movement or the suggestion that support somehow indicates that might is right..

But let's look at an actual study of blm support and not just rely on inferred bias that all white people don't care, are racists or whatever ...

Two-thirds of U.S. adults say they support the movement, with 38% saying they strongly support it. This sentiment is particularly strong among black Americans, although majorities of white (60%), Hispanic (77%) and Asian (75%) Americans express at least some support.

So let's see - two thirds of US adults of all races is 66%. With white people polled at 60%. Fancy that eh!

So no your bias does not stand up to scrutiny my friend.

Eitherway nothing in your comment answers to the issues of the many black people on record who do not agree with blms methods or tactics or their position on the police. Here is just one example.

James Clyburn, D-S.C., the majority whip of the House of Representatives, told The Washington Post that the movement for racial justice suffers when it is “hijacked” by violence.

"We have to make sure we do not allow ourselves to play the other person’s game,” Clyburn said. “Peaceful protest is our game. Violence is their game. Purposeful protest is our game. This looting and rioting, that's their game. We cannot allow ourselves to play their game."

Clyburn said he encourages young activists to remember the “purpose” of their efforts: “to make a better country, a better world, for those who must come after us.”

“Breaking out a window will not contribute to that. Setting a fire, throwing stones at police officers, that’s destructive behavior, which will not contribute to anything that will make this a better country and make a better future for our children and our grandchildren,” he said.

Plenty more like that on-line if you bother to look.

Recent polls suggest a decline in support for the movement following escalating violence and criminality ...

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

This is a very interesting approach for someone claiming to be 'not picking a side'.

The bold could equally be said about posters supporting police or wannabe rambo militia members, they shout from the roof tops about actions that make protesters look bad but 'willfully turn a blind eye or minimize anything negative' that the police do.

Key difference for me is that I hold generally well paid and supposedly well trained police officers to a higher standard than I do random protesters and obvious criminals.

I'm curious.... what is the standard you hold protesters and criminals to? (I don't see why there should be random/obvious there)

I haven't seen anything from you on this thread, that you are holding them up to any standards. Instead, everything is turned to be the fault of the authorities.(Which in many cases, it is... in part.)

People seem to be in awful rush to disavow the responsibilities of one side or another, rather than dealing with the actions (and obvious personal responsibility) of both.

1800_Ladladlad

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Do you think you are being clever in pointing out a spelling mistake? This doesn't reflect positively on you in any way.

Do You condemn paedophilia and any person convicted of such an abhorrent crime?

I condemn paedophilia as much as somebody indiscriminately murdering two people. Unless, you are saying that the reason that the person was murdered was because KR knew they were a paedophile ( unlikely). In that case, he's be a vigilante.

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a pity the teenage girl that KR beat up didn't have a gun on her to stop her been attacked by an aggressive predatory male.

And if he was beating her, I'd be happy for her to defend herself too.

Funny how many don't want the BLM protesters' history brought into the discussion yet feel that KR's history is relevant.

Tell me how

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Do You condemn paedophilia and any person convicted of such an abhorrent crime?

Are you suggesting Kyle Rittenhouse shot him because he knew he was a paedohile?

If yes, how did he know?
If no, then it is irrelevant of what any victim had been convicted of, it was an unlawful shooting.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

And if he was beating her, I'd be happy for her to defend herself too.

Funny how many don't want the BLM protesters' history brought into the discussion yet feel that KR's history is relevant.

It was the pro-KR brigade who brought up the BLM past misdemeanours first. I was just replying in that we can all find things in people's past.

BattleCorp

Foxtrol wrote: »

Where did I (or as far as I remember anyone from this thread) mention Deon Kay? Where was the 'screaming from the rooftops'?

You didn't mention him by name but you responded to 1800_Ladladlad's post #4702 which was specifically about Deon Kay.

There is also no problem with expecting more from and expecting accountability for a person that my taxes are paying to carry a gun and do a competent job than my expectations of a random criminal.

By all means, I agree with you that cops should be held to a higher standard. That said, it's got to the stage that a cop can't shoot a black person even if it's justified without BLM people claiming the shooting was an injustice.

Not only are my taxes paying for his salary and pension, due to the ridiculous laws my taxes are also paying for practically all the huge settlements that are made for them doing a terrible job (as it is near impossible to find them personally liable).

That cop is also helping to keep you somewhat safe so your taxes aren't completely being wasted.

Do you not see how low you've set the bar that your expectations for cops is that they are judged to the same standards as criminals? The horrible things is that in truth the standard for police accountability is even lower than a criminal.

I don't see that I have lower expectations for cops. I think a cop should only shoot someone if they believe their life is in danger. I don't think a cop should have to wait for a criminal to put a bullet or a blade in them before they are allowed to defend themselves.

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

It was the pro-KR brigade who brought up the BLM past misdemeanours first. I was just replying in that we can all find things in people's past.

While I'm in the pro-KR brigade, I don't agree that anybody's past had anything to do with those shootings.

And I do acknowledge that KR was a gobsh1te to be there doing what he was doing, but once he was attacked, I think everything else that happened after that was self-defence.

gozunda

Tell me how wrote: »

I know you are new here (;)) but can you give evidence to people consistently turning a blind eye or minimizing anything negative that BLM do?
The same point was made yesterday that I never did so in the, at this point, hundreds of posts I have made. I was able to point out 3 examples from just the couple hours before that accusation was made where I had specifically denounced any illegal activities. Now, let me give you a summary of my arguments on this thread.All those who riot are wrong.All those who loot are wrong.
All those who use violence are wrong.
All those who do any of the above should be charged and prosecuted.
The ratio of those who are protesting peacefully versus those who are rioting is in the region of 2000:1.There is racism ingrained within at least some of the members of many police forces in the US.Black people are dis-proportionally targeted as an outcome of this. Excessive and preemptive use of lethal force frequently results in the deaths of individuals at the hands of police. Proportionally, this again happens to more black people than white. Irrespective of the colour of the police involved, the current standard operational procedures used by police forces within the US escalate towards physical confrontation, violence and/or lethal force.There is no doubt that largely black areas experience more crime and violence than largely white areas.There is no doubt that this is, at least to a very significant degree, an outcome of decades of prejudicial treatment which has increased the likelihood that residents will be involved, or be infected by this. This prejudicial treatment includes the practice of redlining, it includes a judicial system which operates in a way that black people are much more likely to spend time in prison, it includes less funding or access to education.
It is self-exacerbated whereby the outcome of a criminal conviction, even as a teenager, will very severely impact that persons opportunities for the rest of their lives thus increasing the likelihood that they will turn to crime.
The police are an official arm (or agent, if you wish) of the state.
They are a public body.
They are paid for with public funds.
Their specific purpose is there to keep people safe.A significant portion of the population feel less safe around these very people hired to make them feel safe.
The manner in which they do their business needs to be rethought in very significant ways.
Those against the BLM movement here seem to have a consistency of positions;
That batons/tazers/guns are a preferred approach than de-escalation or dialogue.
That it is acceptable for the police to carry out extra judicial killings.That murder is an acceptable outcome of someone destroying a building.That destroying a building is not an acceptable outcome of murder.That society should react to the frequent cases of inappropriate police behaviour by increasing their funding even more.
That it is more important for police to be funded than it is for teachers or healthcare staff to be funded.The correlation between how these protests are being viewed and reacted to and how the civil rights marches of the 60's were viewed and reacted to are so similar, they could nearly be the same event. I suspect that all people on all sides of this current discussion would have been on the corresponding sides in the 60's also.The continued acceptance of what is going on, the use of the same solutions which have been tried for decades and the outright refusal to accept any need for police reform will lead to a continued division within the supposedly richest country in the world which could very possibly be a factor towards outright armed conflict between groups of its citizens. The current President is an instigator in things moving in this direction.In terms of how societies within the human race have evolved, it has thankfully, with some very significant relapses, been in the direction of eventual progress and ultimately that will be seen here. It won't be today or tomorrow or a quick fix, but it will happen.

Your imagination has been running on overtime there Tell me how.

And once again bizarrely infering that those with whom you disagree and / or are critical of the blm are racists or similar! Of course they are TMH - you disagree with them - so they must be morally suspect eh?

Let's look at the above mass accusations from your projectons of the "beliefs" of posters in a bit more detail TMH.

Tell me how wrote:

Those against the BLM movement here seem to have a consistency of positions...

That batons/tazers/guns are a preferred approach than de-escalation or dialogue.

Do they? Where and who says this TMH?

That it is acceptable for the police to carry out extra judicial killings.

Do they? Where and exactly who says this TMH?

That murder is an acceptable outcome of someone destroying a building.

Do they? Where and who says this TMH?

That destroying a building is not an acceptable outcome of murder.

Really do they? Where and who says this TMH? I think you are also implying thats its OK to burn buildings by way of demonstration regardless of the risk of death to those in those building. Thats hardly equitable is it?

That society should react to the frequent cases of inappropriate police behaviour by increasing their funding even more.

Do they? Where and who says this TMH?
So lets see from a few police - you demand all be punished and policing for all races should be reduced. Yup that sounds fair...

That it is more important for police to be funded than it is for teachers or healthcare staff to be funded.

Really do they? Where and who says this TMH? Surely funding for all those essential services is necessary? Unless you think that federal funds should be given to only some essential services?

I can only conclude that the whole blm thing has a had a very serious negative effect on your comprehension and understanding.

Tell me how

^^^
Everything is listed in a convenient way for you to read for yourself here.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058091617

gozunda

Tell me how wrote: »

^^^
Everything is listed in a convenient way for you to read for yourself here.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058091617

So you can provide no proof other than your own vague accusations and continued mud slinging?

Right so

Tell me how

gozunda wrote: »

So you can provide no proof other than your own vague accusations and continued mud slinging?

Right so

Ignore what is written so, I don't care. I expected nothing less.

gozunda

Tell me how wrote: »

Ignore what is written so, I don't care. I expected nothing less.

Well the fact is you've ignored practically everything which has been written by other posters.

And instead substituted a whole host of bizarre projections collectively on all those whom you do not agree with.

In any such discussion - its not wrong to expect at least a basic standard of discourse. Sorry if pointing that out does not suit

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

There does seem to be alot of this going on, people pushing what they want to believe happened rather than being fair and judging what actually happened.

The KR situation is a good example a gob****e he was but a murderer he was not atleast not off the back of the footage shown..

That's what I was getting at with my original post there does seem to be a thinly vield undercurrent of "agree with us or you're racist!" in the thread

I find it strange but it seems to be perfectly acceptable once it's dressed up well and worded conviently.

You've only just joined Boards today, surely you haven't had time to read the whole thread?

I'm not suggesting that everyone here who doesn't support the BLM movement is racist but I am suggesting they are frequently prejudiced in some way to not see the need for meaningful action.

I think most of it is rooted in fear to be honest, the fear that an improving world for anyone else is ultimately going to be worse for them in some way. They'd sooner take the 'what we have, we hold' approach.

Tell me how

gozunda wrote: »

Well the fact is you've ignored practically everything which has been written by other posters.

And instead substituted a whole host of bizarre projections collectively on all those whom you do not agree with.

In any such discussion - its not wrong to expect at least a basic standard of discourse. Sorry if pointing that out does not suit

The fact that I disagree with something, does not mean I've ignored it.

I patently respond to, quote and highlight these points which is hardly ignoring them.

Just asking me repeatedly to accept them won't work I'm afraid.

BattleCorp

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that everyone here who doesn't support the BLM movement is racist but I am suggesting they are frequently prejudiced in some way to not see the need for meaningful action.

Likewise, many BLM supporters only see wrong when a cop is involved in the death of a black person.

Tell me how

BattleCorp wrote: »

Likewise, many BLM supporters only see wrong when a cop is involved in the death of a black person.

That is not the case, but instead that it should not be seen as acceptable that the next black person is treated unfairly because of the behaviour of a previous one.

The rule of law is predicated on everyone being assumed innocent and having a right to a fair trial.

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

I've actually read most of it I'm actually very interested in the topic,

I disagree with that who do you think here is in "fear of an improving world"? That seems like something you be conjured up yourself to have a snipe at other posters if I'm honest..

As for prejudices to be honest you have be heavily skewed towards BLM and see every other race as fair game but get outraged if someone suggests anything negative about either black people or blm be it fact or not and on the other hand you ll happily blanket blame "white people" for stuff all the while complaining about racism it's ... A slight bit of a contradiction .

That's not to single you out a few others seem to be of the same vein of thought aswell it's very skewed one way atleast it comes across that way but that's just my 2 cents I can see why alot of posters disagree with you.

Again thats just what I'm seeing from the posts don't take it personally.

Given that you've just completed reading the thread, can you give examples of this.

It just seems like more of the'accuse others of that which you are guilty approach' that has become all too familiar these days.

The police is a public funded body there to specifically protect the public.
If they are not doing so, that needs to change.

You either agree with this, or you don't.

Snickers Man

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

A comedy sketch from 2013 .. . . .

https://twitter.com/prageru/status/1301180330494357507

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

You cant punish a police officer for doing there job, its the individuals that are committing the crime that need to be looked at first and the police 2nd.. it seems to be backward of late, and people are being completely unreasonable towards the police and just issuing blanket judgement that simply arent true.

Are police the real victims in America?
Well, here's a few pieces of data to ponder.
The first comes from the Washington Post, one of the most reputable newspapers in America. The paper of Woodward and Bernstein who did so much to bring the Watergate story to public attention in the 1970s.
This paper now gathers data on the number of fatal shootings by law enforcement officers in America every year. They reveal that the average figure over the past four years has been remarkably consistent, just shy of 1,000 people every year. Check it out here

The next piece of data comes from that well known haven of SJWs, lefties, cultural Marxist, post modern, fake news (choose your epithet of choice) snowflakes, the Federal Bureau of Investigation. (FBI). Yeah, the Feds!
It's a public statement of the number of law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty in the USA last year (2019).
The total? 89. Nearly half of these (41) were killed in accidents; the remaining 48 were killed as a result of "felonious attacks".

Think about that: 48 policemen killed by the general public as opposed to nearly 1,000 people killed by the police in shooting incidents only!!!!!! That's a 20-1 ratio in favour of police and that's before you begin to include deaths down to over exuberant choke holds, knees on the neck or good old-fashioned kickings.

George Floyd's death is not counted in that subset of police killings.

Wonder what the people are protesting about!

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

Let's be real it is the case.. blm cares only about black people it's in the name even !

But that's what they are trying to get across


They d be called all lives matter if it was the other way!

Where were all the stars and stripes flag flying crew calling for fair treatment of Black people before they started drawing attention to it.

All Lives Matter is only being used as a riposte, not a true belief.

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

I'm not out to get ya this isn't some sort of conspiracy like..

You want examples of proof that I've read the thread ?

Jesus...

This is your statement about me.

As for prejudices to be honest you have be heavily skewed towards BLM and see every other race as fair game but get outraged if someone suggests anything negative about either black people or blm be it fact or not and on the other hand you ll happily blanket blame "white people" for stuff all the while complaining about racism it's ... A slight bit of a contradiction .

I asked for evidence to support this. If it didn't come from you reading the thread, how did you form this opinion?

gozunda

Tell me how wrote: »

The fact that I disagree with something, does not mean I've ignored it.

I patently respond to, quote and highlight these points which is hardly ignoring them.

Just asking me repeatedly to accept them won't work I'm afraid.

Who is asking you to accept other posters POV? This is a discussion.

The previous comment highlighted the painting of posters with whom you diasgree as being somehow morally suspect and bizarrely all sharing the exact same views is bs.

Tbh that is little better than someone trying to claim that all <insert race> are X. .


It doesn't wash. End of story.

Tell me how

gozunda wrote: »

Who is asking you to accept other posters POV? This is a discussion.

The previous comment highlighted that your painting of posters with whom you diasgree as being somehow morally suspect and bizarrely all sharing the exact same views is bs.

Tbh that is little better than someone trying to claim that all <insert race> are X. .


It doesn't wash. End of story.

Lol.

Ok then. If you say so.

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

That's a lovely sign.

And while the words on it say one thing I'm afraid the actions of the group don't correspond well with them.

Yeah?

In what way?

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

I dunno the rioting the looting the racially motivated attacks alot of hate speech, some of it thinly vield some of it not so much.

But you already knew that , lemme guess you want sources and proof of all of the above ?

What percentage of protesters do you think are engaging in such activity given that you think that the entire movement is emblematic of such behaviour?

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

Depends who you ask I guess, according to you prob none . How do you want me answer that like is this another question you already know the answer to ?

Do you want to answer the question or don't you?

Carfacemandog

Police have arrested two men supporting Blue Lives Matter from Missouri who had travelled to Kenosha, Wisconsin (550km from MO's capital of St. Louis) with the intent of mass murder.



https://abcnews.go.com/US/blue-lives-matter-supporters-arrested-slew-firearms-kenosha/story?id=72808923

Two Missouri men were arrested on firearm charges after a tipster warned law enforcement the pair were traveling to Kenosha, Wisconsin, with assault-style weapons, according to court documents.

Michael M. Karmo, 40, and Cody E. Smith, 33, were arrested at a hotel near Kenosha on Tuesday and charged with illegal possession of firearms, the Department of Justice announced Thursday. According to the criminal complaint against them, they were found with a major cache of firearms and weapons in their vehicle and hotel room that included an AR-15, a shotgun, handguns, a dagger, a saw and magazines.

Text messages between Karmo and the tipster allegedly included a photograph of Karmo holding a rifle with a drum-style magazine in it along with the message, "This is the game changer," the complaint said

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

What percentage of cops do you reckon wake up in the morning and think to themselves "hmmm can't wait to harass black people at random today!"

I'll answer this when you answer the question you were fist asked.