BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not speaking for that poster, but, consider this.

Unfortunately, there are still parents in Ireland who discipline their children using physical force. It is illegal, but it still happens. But it isn't an active topic of conversation amongst the general public on how to stop it.

Now imagine if news broke that a number of teachers in various schools were continuing with the practice of corporal punishment. That would be all over Joe Duffy, there would be marches calling for action and people would be looking for heads to role from the teachers, the principle, the board of management, right up to the minister for education.

All violence is unacceptable, but it can never be n argument to countenance it being carried out by official organisations, just because members of the public are doing so.

People would be right to protest. They wouldn't retain credibility if they began rioting and looting however.

Overheal

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

What? So because (in your opinion) the police ‘randomly assault people’, that makes it ok for someone minding their own business to have the sh1t kicked out of them? And at the same time you won’t condemn this violence, only police violence? No wonder I’m feeling confused as a left leaning, Trump critical observer of all this madness.

I don’t support anyone having the **** whimsically kicked out of them. I’m not sure where you inferred I did, but it would be anarchy if people just kicked the **** out of people for minding their own business. Surely that goes without saying.

Tipperary animal lover

Welcome to the thread unstoppable, you've found out quickly the goal posts are moved when you challenge the boyos, best of luck interacting with them, you'll see its fingers in ears stuff from them, not a hope will you get them to agree on anything you say even if you have your facts right.

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

So having the most posts wins the debate?

Not when what you are posting is waffle.
Nobody argued that anyone said "all policy are killers", the quote was "police are killers". Police aren't killers, do police kill people in their line of duty? Yes, do they set out do kill people? Of course not.

Having most posts simply suggest there is a volume of evidence of the posters point.

I would go so far as to say most don't (some actually do, but lets leave that aside) set out to kill people.

But, they will take that option at the slightest hint that things aren't going as they want them to do.

That isn't acceptable.

Tell me how

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

Welcome to the thread unstoppable, you've found out quickly the goal posts are moved when you challenge the boyos, best of luck interacting with them, you'll see its fingers in ears stuff from them, not a hope will you get them to agree on anything you say even if you have your facts right.

Pick any single angle on which you want to debate, and see what way the discussion goes.

Talking about facts, this poster admitted to making up a figure to counter documented evidence. How do you suggest we should respond to that?

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

People would be right to protest. They wouldn't retain credibility if they began rioting and looting however.

So, say someone drove a cement truck in to the gates of Leinster house.
Would that remove the right for everyone to protest?
How about if people surrounded the car of a minister and wouldn't let it leave?

Would that mean that action wasn't necessary to counter the unacceptable behaviour?

Overheal

Tell me how wrote: »

So, say someone drove a cement truck in to the gates of Leinster house.
Would that remove the right for everyone to protest?
How about if people surrounded the car of a minister and wouldn't let it leave?

Would that mean that action wasn't necessary to counter the unacceptable behaviour?

It would seem to be a long the lines of if a car plows through a bunch of protesters in Charlottesville, it diminishes public opinion of eg. the Alt right.

ProfessorPlum

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not speaking for that poster, but, consider this.

Unfortunately, there are still parents in Ireland who discipline their children using physical force. It is illegal, but it still happens. But it isn't an active topic of conversation amongst the general public on how to stop it.

Now imagine if news broke that a number of teachers in various schools were continuing with the practice of corporal punishment. That would be all over Joe Duffy, there would be marches calling for action and people would be looking for heads to role from the teachers, the principle, the board of management, right up to the minister for education.

All violence is unacceptable, but it can never be n argument to countenance it being carried out by official organisations, just because members of the public are doing so.

Terrible analogy, but anyway...
I’m not condoning police violence, it’s wrong. But justifying violence by members of BLM or any one else because the police may be violent too is also wrong. Which is the flip side of what you seems to be saying. Do you agree with that?

Tell me how

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Terrible analogy, but anyway...
I’m not condoning police violence, it’s wrong. But justifying violence by members of BLM or any one else because the police may be violent too is also wrong. Which is the flip side of what you seems to be saying. Do you agree with that?

Why?

Give me a comparable situation where agents of the state are misbehaving and we can discuss that.

I have repeatedly said that all violence is wrong, am I going to have to start copying and pasting that in to each post?

Tell me how

Unstoppable20 wrote: »

It's genuinely laughable , like the lengths they are going to... It's almost impressive, I'm still not sure if they are trolling or being genuine

:pac::pac:

This is good. You have 40+ posts on this topic on your first day on Boards.

But we are the ones going to extreme lengths?

ProfessorPlum

Overheal wrote: »

I don’t support anyone having the **** whimsically kicked out of them. I’m not sure where you inferred I did, but it would be anarchy if people just kicked the **** out of people for minding their own business. Surely that goes without saying.

From your reply to the other post, which I quoted. The inference was pretty clear.

Overheal

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

From your reply to the other post, which I quoted. The inference was pretty clear.

You just quoted my clarification. I don’t know what else you expect there is to say about it.

Overheal

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

From your reply to the other post, which I quoted. The inference was pretty clear.

I’ve already cleared up your confusion. At this point you’re just looking to bitterly stew about it. Nobody should have the **** kicked out of them for minding their own business. I don’t know how else to clear that up. Are you ready to move on or do we need to wallow on this a bit more?

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

I’ll help you cats out:

Police are killers. That’s not a narrative..

"In fact, only about a quarter (27%) of all officers say they have ever fired their service weapon while on the job, according to a separate Pew Research Center survey conducted by the National Police Research Platform. The survey was conducted May 19-Aug. 14, 2016, among a nationally representative sample of 7,917 sworn officers working in 54 police and sheriff’s departments with 100 or more officers."

"The 14 factors controlled for in the logistic analysis were the officer’s gender, age, race/ethnicity, education, years in law enforcement, current assignment and rank, veteran status, size of the officer’s department, whether the officer’s agency was a police or sheriff’s department, whether the department was located in an urban or suburban area, the census region where the officer’s department was located, the size of the population served by the officer’s department and the city or county’s violent crime rate in 2015. Unless otherwise noted, only those relationships that were statistically significant after controlling for these factors are reported."

Worth reading the whole article.

Since you've decided that Police are killers. Naturally... I hope you mean that some Police officers are killers. You wouldn't be wanting to include all those police officers who have never even shot anyone throughout their career... Yes?

Edit: Oh... it seems a fair few people misinterpreted your point.

Overheal

Seems to be a lot of deliberate and dishonest cherry picking happening now.

US Police, the institution, are sanctioned killers. The institution is sanctioned to kill, and has Qualified Immunity on the individual level to do it. This does not translate to “all police are bloodthirsty murderers” or other words put in my mouth. Obviously, the majority of cops never see a need to ever deploy such force in the line of duty. As an institution though, if there is a killer among them, the institution far from excising the problem Officer, is designed to excuse them.

ProfessorPlum

nullzero wrote: »

People would be right to protest. They wouldn't retain credibility if they began rioting and looting however.

....and if it turned out that the kids were armed and/or being physically aggressive or violent towards the teachers, it would change the narrative. That’s why it was a bad analogy.

gozunda

Tell me how wrote: »

Pick any single angle on which you want to debate, and see what way the discussion goes.

Talking about facts, this poster admitted to making up a figure to counter documented evidence. How do you suggest we should respond to that?

Well to be fair that normally goes with all the posters with whom you disagree being lumped together and eventually accused of having hive minds and / or being painted as morally suspect for that same reason.

'making stuff up' Tmh?

I dunno but the poster was quite open that they had made up that figure in order to highlight your utterly daft reliance on one statistical measure to try and prove your take on a very complex issue.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Seems to be a lot of deliberate and dishonest cherry picking happening now.

If that's directed at me, then I don't think I did.

Earlier you made the point about Muslims being targeted because of being Muslims. The same with AA being targeted because they're AA.

Then you came out with "Police are killers. That’s not a narrative.."

That's not cheery picking. That's calling you out on what you said.

US Police, the institution, are sanctioned killers. The institution is sanctioned to kill, and has Qualified Immunity on the individual level to do it. This does not translate to “all police are bloodthirsty murderers” or other words put in my mouth. Obviously, the majority of cops never see a need to ever deploy such force in the line of duty. As an institution though, if there is a killer among them, the institution far from excising the problem Officer, is designed to excuse them.

And now you're explaining your reasoning, but when you made your previous statement, you didn't. At least, not in any way, that you were only talking about a select group... IMHO you're shuffling by calling them sanctioned killers, when the fact is that out of the whole population of Police officers in the US, it's a minority that kill anyone.

"Police are killers. That’s not a narrative. People are in fact being killed by police, hundreds per year, and they aren’t some rabble rousing group of teenagers with wooden shields they are a government sanctioned and operated, regulated force, funded by taxpayer money. The public has every interest and prerogative to petition the government and the police when they don’t serve the best interests of society."

Fr Tod Umptious

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Police have arrested two men supporting Blue Lives Matter from Missouri who had travelled to Kenosha, Wisconsin (550km from MO's capital of St. Louis) with the intent of mass murder.



https://abcnews.go.com/US/blue-lives-matter-supporters-arrested-slew-firearms-kenosha/story?id=72808923

Seriously ?

When did St. Louis become the capital of Missouri ?

Jefferson City is the capital of MO.

Get your facts straight.

Manic Moran

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not exactly a fair comparison, is it? What's the ratio of police lawfully killed by the general public as opposed to the number of citizens unlawfully killed by police? (That's before you begin to include deaths due to accidents responding to crimes and pursuits and the like). The figures as I recall are that out of those 1,000 or so people shot by police, 940 or so were armed. That's not a simple equivalence, obviously, as being armed or not in itself isn't protection from or an excuse for shooting, but it's a fair indicator of the proportion, no?

It kinda speaks more to how backwards the US regarding their gun laws than anything else. Doesn't happen in any EU country or Japan or Australia.

Carfacemandog

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Seriously ?

When did St. Louis become the capital of Missouri ?

Jefferson City is the capital of MO.

Get your facts straight.

Every day is a school day. Jefferson (pop 150,000) is indeed the capital and not St. Louis, which is the largest at a 2.8mn population.

Jefferson is 700km from Kenosha, rather than 550km for St Louis.

gozunda

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Every day is a school day. Jefferson (pop 150,000) is indeed the capital and not St. Louis, which is the largest at a 2.8mn population.

Jefferson is 700km from Kenosha, rather than 550km for St Louis.

Did they come from Jefferson?

The article doesn't mention whereabouts in Missisouri the two guys travelled from ...

Snickers Man

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not exactly a fair comparison, is it? What's the ratio of police lawfully killed by the general public as opposed to the number of citizens unlawfully killed by police?

A big problem is what Americans choose to see as the big problem.

If your reaction to a 20-1 kill ratio in favour of the police is to say: "Well, I hope all those police killings were legally defensible and that standard procedures were followed to the letter in all cases, because if so that's all fine!" you're really missing the point.

Do you think that the loved ones of people killed by police are going to be at all assuaged by somebody trying to argue in terms of legal niceties how "The sonofabitch was asking for it anyway"?

Carfacemandog

gozunda wrote: »

Did they come from Jefferson?

The article doesn't mention whereabouts in Missisouri the two guys travelled from ...

No idea since I've not seen which specific town/city they are from outside of it being in Missouri. I had given St. Louis as an example of the long distance between where they travelled from to Kenosha itself.

gozunda

Jacob Blake back in the news again ...

https://abcnews.go.com/US/jacob-blake-appears-court-hospital-bed-domestic-abuse/story?id=72823251?id=72823251&cid=referral_taboola_feed

Backstory

Carfacemandog

Carfacemandog wrote: »

No idea since I've not seen which specific town/city they are from outside of it being in Missouri. I had given St. Louis as an example of the long distance between where they travelled from to Kenosha itself.

Since my interest got piqued, I looked into it further. They are from Hartville, MO and drove the whole way around Illinois rather than straight through, travelling via Iowa instead which would take the journey to well over 900km per Google maps.

That's a seriously long trip to take to possibly pick a lot of people off with their "game changing" arsenal.

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

NY Times.





I've been willing to allow the number arrested to be out by a factor of 10 and haven't increased the protesters who have protested in the 2 months since the article was written.

So, by all means, let you, or anyone else come up with a figure to indicate that the BLM movement is focused solely on violence and looting and that will be discussed.

One Problem with quoting Statistics from the New York Times, Is they have a long record of covering up or just lying to their readers when writing about statistics.
Example
They covered up the Genocide of 7-10 million Ukrainians, known as the Holodomor.
If they lie to protect Stalin, they will also lie to protect the bLM mob.


https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/8407-ukrainian-genocide-ny-times-still-covering-up

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

Great. Someone else here prone to rhetoric. Just what we need.

No one is suggesting all police are killers.
We are suggesting that the police system in the US needs reform because there is ample evidence than it is not best serving the needs of the community it is specifically in place to serve.
We are not arguing that it be abolished.
We are not arguing that it be disarmed.
We are arguing that it needs to be reviewed and the resources which it occupies be considered as to whether they are being best utilised.

How is that so complicated to understand?

The 'Community' you speak of, those not takes personal responsibility.
It is always blaming others for their own problems.

‘A Black activist group is accusing city and state officials of ignoring coronavirus-related complaints about a huge multi-day party in Dorchester, saying that Gov. Charlie Baker and Mayor Martin Walsh aren’t protecting minority communities already hit hard by the virus’

So the black activists are blaming the police for not breaking up the crowds.
And if the police did their job, the same black activists and their supporters on Boards.ie would be screaming RACISM.
https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/09/03/black-boston-activists-slam-lack-of-response-to-dorchester-block-party-amid-coronavirus/

And from last week, another illegal street party, thousands were there.
https://liveboston617.org/2020/08/30/man-found-shot-on-blue-hill-ave-during-unsanctioned-caribbean-festival-street-party/

gozunda

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Since my interest got piqued, I looked into it further. They are from Hartville, MO and drove the whole way around Illinois rather than straight through, travelling via Iowa instead which would take the journey to well over 900km per Google maps.

That's a seriously long trip to take to possibly pick a lot of people off with their "game changing" arsenal.

Lol so did mine.

Looks like its not just some white folks act like idiots with guns.

Louisville

Apparently all out of towners. From Atlanta. Not sure which route this particular bunch of eejits took to get to Louisville

Nabber

Does anyone else see a problem in business owners painting 'Black owned' on there store fronts to deter looting? Seems like it's suggesting that Asian, Hispanic and White stores should only be targeted.

The USA is divided by race on both the left and right.
Imagine an Irish election where they talked about Leo going out to Balbriggan to appeal to the black vote! Yet in the states it's totally normal. CNN, FOX, MSNBC... You name it they all divide it out by race. They don't bat an eyelid at it.
Conservative and Democrats openly talk about how they are good for XYZ race.

USA Politics, Media and Universities define people by their race... How could the USA not have race related problems?