BLM, or WLM? [MOD WARNING: FIRST POST]

Carfacemandog

BattleCorp wrote: »

Defunding can't be a good move. As it is, the police can't be everywhere they are needed. Defund them and they will be in even less places where they are needed.

There will be very few instances like Daniel Prude's case where police back-up won't be needed. In actual fact, I think there are very few instances where police action that results in the death of someone could be better served through the intervention of social services alone.

Rochester police department are hardly struggling for funds to be fair. They have a jurisdiction covering 230,000 people and a budget of $90mn. By comparison, An Garda Siochana have a jurisdiction of around 4,900,000 people and a budget of the equivalent of $137mn. Per capita, Rochester police department has 14 times the funds of our own.

Added to that, their funding is being reduced in line with their responsibilities in relation to this specific area. They do not need the funds to call out for crisis intervention, as they are not calling out for crisis intervention, while social services do because they now are. This will allow the police to focus their efforts on other areas they are better suited and trained to, and if they are required to assist in any of these incidents, I would assume the department responsible for doing so will likely receive funding as required for the same reason they are removing funds now - allocation of costs vs services provided.

What would you base your assessment that there would be very few cases not requiring police assistance needed on?

gozunda

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I said there are no ifs and maybes about them defunding the police service and diverting the funds because there literally isn't - it has already happened. That you are desperately clinging in to my ultra simplified explanation as to why this has happened - given because you seemed to be struggling mightily with the idea, intentionally or not - says all it needs to here. As does your sudden change if heart about the abilities of the "very smart people" you were referring to in your last few posts, now they're apparently making foolish decisions to appease 'the mob' that will ultimately be their undoing, says you as you refuse to even try to come up with any alternatives as to how to cover this.
The funds have to come from somewhere, as there unfortunately is no such thing as a magic money tree.

Conflating your own imagination with what was said again? Can't help you there. You deny you said something. Then say you did. Could you make up your mind thanks.

Again no one said anyone was doing anything "foolish" except yourself.

And yes it appears that this police dapartments funding is being sacrificed to appease the mob

And again the bolded bit is not a quote from my comments - but I would agree yes there are smart people out there - thankfully.

That said if someone cuts the legs off your chair - your arse will end up on the floor. Lets just hope this idiocracy is halted before police services and the victims of crime end up at the wrong end of your preferred funding model.

Later.

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

Aren't you the guy who didn't want the figures of people arrested versus those who protested discussed here?

Let me guess by 'facts' you mean those that you agree with.

At least you've finally acknowledged there is a problem, looking forward to hearing some ideas on how to fix the rich vs poor issue now, at least that would be an improvement from just wanting everything to stay the same.

I've never stayed that I wanted things to stay the same. My issue has been that BLM is a movement that has passed its usefulness.

As for your statistics, I did discuss your figures and I stated that 10,000 arrests is not a small number of arrests and that downplaying it by saying its "only" 0.05% of protest participants is a preposterous stance.

My issue was with you constantly demanding other users posts percentage amounts on arbitrary things. Its all there in back and white earlier in the thread. Nice try at trying to make me look like the unreasonable one here.

nullzero

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

"While the longer-term impact of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 was questionable, the political impact was clear — crime control or 'tough on crime' became a bipartisan issue."

So-called "tough on crime" policies have not only failed to effectively reduce crime, recidivism, and victimization but also created an incredibly inefficient system that routinely fails the public, taxpayers, crime victims, criminal offenders, their families, and their communities.

Kelly, William R. (2015). Criminal Justice at the Crossroads: Transforming Crime and Punishment. Columbia University Press. p. 29.

The above signifies a shift to 'the right' by Democrats. There is no political left in the US to speak of. Regardless, I'll cite experts and you keep on pretending you're in a Ben Shapiro YouTube rant's comments section.

I never brought up the spectre of the left/right paradigm at any point, but don't let that deter you from making assumptions.

My point was that, regardless of whatever party is in power, poor people get shafted.

You turned that into me slavishly supporting Ben Shapiro, well done, you managed to completely miss the point and then went on to make assumptions about me based on your own pathetic world view.

nullzero

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Because you were responding to a post about moving funds from one department to another in Rochester, yet when asked if you thought that would result in the removal of all police in Rochester over this you claimed to be discussing another issue. The assumption to take there is that if you did think this was the case, you would answer directly in the affirmative.

Feel free to let me know though if you do actually think that moving funding for these specific calls from police (who will no longer be taking these specific calls), to social services (who will now be doing so) is going to result in the removal of all of the police in Rochester.

I wasn't responding to you, I made a comment about the police free situation in Chaz/Chop in reply to another poster, so you are way off.

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

MLK was viewed and reported on in pretty much exactly the same way that you are denouncing the BLM movement here.

There is no comparison between MLK and BLM.

This type of argument is lazy and reaching.

gozunda

nullzero wrote: »

There is no comparison between MLK and BLM.

This type of argument is lazy and reaching.

True. I never knew MLK was involved in burning, looting, harrassing and intimidating people

I always thought he abhored violence as a means of achieving change

Must be some other alternative reality ...

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

True. I never knew MLK was involved in burning, looting, harrassing and intimidating people

I always thought he abhored violence as a means of achieving change

Must be some other alternative reality ...

The real difference is leadership and responsibility. MLK took responsibility for those who followed him, chastising those who engaged in violence, and asked everyone to work towards a better, more harmonious society. He represented higher values and ideals for all Black people to aspire to, during their fight for equality.

BLM activists have repeatedly called for the tearing/burning down of society. The destruction of social values, like the the nuclear family. While, everything obviously negative is passed off as an extreme minority, or shoved on to white supremacy.

BLM and MLK are nothing alike, except they [broadly] speaking want Black rights.... But personally, I suspect, MLK would be horrified at what's going on by BLM and what's been encouraged in their name. MLK wanted equality for all. BLM doesn't.

Biafranlivemat

gozunda wrote: »

I pity the poor social worker who is confronted by some naked bloke, out of his head on pcp and spitting at everyone called to deal with the situation during a Covid Outbreak as happened in a recent case*. And no that doesn't excuse the that he died while being restrained by police officers.

And you do realise the only ones who will suffer if the police are defunded - are the victims of crime. Those who benifit? - the criminals. Nice.

No reason funds not to be made avaiable in addition to normal policing demands.

This 'defund' ****e is nothing but an excuse for those looking to 'police themselves'. Yeah like that's going to work in the US.

*https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/04/us/daniel-prude-body-cam-details/index.html

gozunda

Danzy

nullzero wrote: »

There is no comparison between MLK and BLM.

This type of argument is lazy and reaching.

MLK and BLM couldn't be further apart.

Biafranlivemat

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don't understand why people think a response must be an either/or scenario. Either send the police or send the social services. The reality is that the social services often will not go to incidents where their expertise is best suited unless the police go along anyway, just in case. I posted a recent example of why this is a good idea in post 4920. The expense and man-hour requirements for the police remain, though hopefully the costs of after-shooting investigations will be reduced.

A related matter is the recent brilliant idea by the City of Berkeley that traffic stops be conducted by unarmed city employees instead of by police. https://www.kqed.org/news/11828889/city-of-berkeley-considers-removing-police-from-traffic-stops

Leaving aside the legal issues of if a motorist is required to stop for a city employee, and the amount of criminal cases closed as a result of a traffic stop leading to further progress (eg Tim McVeigh pulled over for a license plate and then tried for killing 168 people), it will not take long after the death of one of these unarmed personnel for people to advocate for a reversal of the situation. It is worth remembering that the California Highway Patrol was not always routinely armed (though certainly images of the first officers do sometimes show a sidearm). After all, pulling over speeders and the likes doesn't require a gun, right? Unfortunately, that apparently was not a universally-held viewpoint by those getting pulled over. There's a reason CHP are now as well armed as any other police force.

Traffic stops conducted by unarmed city employees instead of by police, is a good idea in theory.
but what happens when they pull over someone that is armed.
Recent examples from Boston.
https://liveboston617.org/2020/09/03/cambridge-man-arrested-on-gun-and-drug-charges-after-fleeing-traffic-stop-on-monday/
https://bpdnews.com/news/2020/9/5/traffic-stop-leads-to-suspect-arrest-and-recovery-of-a-loaded-firearm-in-roxbury
https://liveboston617.org/2020/09/07/another-career-criminal-with-a-gun-off-the-streets/

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

This post probably more relevant on a conversation on the progressive militarisation of American society and just where will this end and the associated relevance of more meaningful gun control practices.

Gun control is important, otherwise you might shoot yourself in your Penis.
https://liveboston617.org/2020/09/02/man-allegedly-shoots-himself-in-his-thing-overnight-in-dorchester/

BattleCorp

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

Traffic stops conducted by unarmed city employees instead of by police, is a good idea in theory.
but what happens when they pull over someone that is armed.

You'd want to be fcuking mad to conduct unarmed traffic stops. How many city employees would be shot or run over before that idea would be put back in the bin?

BattleCorp

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

https://liveboston617.org/2020/09/02/man-allegedly-shoots-himself-in-his-thing-overnight-in-dorchester/

Would someone please train the cops how to wear a fcuking face mask please.

suicide_circus

"Have we reached the ultimate stage of absurdity where some people are held responsible for things that happened before they were born, while other people are not held responsible for what they themselves are doing today?" - Thomas Sowell

Biafranlivemat

Tell me how wrote: »

This post probably more relevant on a conversation on the progressive militarisation of American society and just where will this end and the associated relevance of more meaningful gun control practices.

7 people shot, 4 stabbed, over Saturday night.
The people doing the shoot, have illegal guns.
https://liveboston617.org/2020/09/06/update-on-one-of-the-busiest-and-bloodiest-nights-of-the-summer/

Criminals are caught with illegal guns, and are given a slap on the wrist.
This guy is caught for the second time with a illegal gun.
https://bpdnews.com/news/2020/9/5/traffic-stop-leads-to-suspect-arrest-and-recovery-of-a-loaded-firearm-in-roxbury
He still has to go to court for the first gun offensive.
https://bpdnews.com/news/2020/1/9/firearm-arrest-2

This guy is caught with a illegal gun,Third Offense
https://bpdnews.com/news/2020/9/5/officers-arrest-suspect-charged-with-armed-career-criminal-level-three-and-recover-loaded-firearm-following-foot-pursuit-in-roxbury

We don't need "meaningful gun control" We need the existing laws to be enforced.

Biafranlivemat

Carfacemandog wrote: »

If there are incidents where a police presence is also deemed a necessity, then the likely answer in my ooinoij would be for them to request police accompaniment, for which the department responsible for responding will likely be budgeted accordingly depending on how often they are needed.

So who gets to decide if the Police or social services gets called. In the following case, I'm glad the police were called.

https://liveboston617.org/2020/09/07/you-werent-shot-thats-just-the-meth-talking/

BattleCorp

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

We don't need "meaningful gun control" We need the existing laws to be enforced.

Defunding the police = citizens having to arm themselves for protection = more guns = more problems = citizens having even more need to arm themselves for protection = even more guns = even more problems.................to infinity and beyond.

Biafranlivemat

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Rochester police department are hardly struggling for funds to be fair. They have a jurisdiction covering 230,000 people and a budget of $90mn. By comparison, An Garda Siochana have a jurisdiction of around 4,900,000 people and a budget of the equivalent of $137mn. Per capita, Rochester police department has 14 times the funds of our own.

Added to that, their funding is being reduced in line with their responsibilities in relation to this specific area. They do not need the funds to call out for crisis intervention, as they are not calling out for crisis intervention, while social services do because they now are. This will allow the police to focus their efforts on other areas they are better suited and trained to, and if they are required to assist in any of these incidents, I would assume the department responsible for doing so will likely receive funding as required for the same reason they are removing funds now - allocation of costs vs services provided.

What would you base your assessment that there would be very few cases not requiring police assistance needed on?

Rochester has a very high crime rate. compared to Ireland.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ny/rochester/crime
Rochester VIOLENT CRIMES


Population: 206,284

Murder Rape Robbery Assault
29 138 516 940
Could you imagine the Gardai dealing with about 700 murders per year.

Tipperary animal lover

8 people stabbed(1 dead) in Birmingham over the weekend all white by a blackman, such a multicultural city but all white stabbed, the msm don't say anything about colour on their news reports but if it was the other way around( which hardly ever happens) they would be singing it from the roof tops, blm would be marching the streets ...... but guess what nothing not even tumble weed, I guess wlm means feck all in the new world order we live in, just pay your taxes give refuge in your country and shut your hole

gozunda

I think this report gives some idea just how difficult policing can be

Police respond to report of a shooting

While attempting to save the man’s life and secure the scene, Police encountered a large group of onlookers and partiers who quickly became confrontational, combative and aggressive towards the units on scene. A call for help from officers in the park resulted in the activation of EDTs from Boston Police Districts A-1, A-15, D-4 and C-6. Additionally, outside agencies including The Massachusetts State Police H-9 Tunnels, F Troop Logan, Gang Unit as well as surrounding towns such as Chelsea responded to aid the officers in need.

https://liveboston617.org/2020/08/31/man-clinging-to-life-after-being-shot-in-the-head-overnight/

I wonder how social workers would cope with that situation tbh

Carfacemandog

Unions representing millions are now threatening to strike in support of BLM, a peaceful form of protest which many would see as preferential to the rioting been seen in some areas.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/unions-threaten-work-stoppages-amid-calls-for-racial-justice

Ahead of Labor Day, unions representing millions across several working-class sectors are threatening to authorize work stoppages in support of the Black Lives Matter movement amid calls for concrete measures that address racial injustice.

In a statement first shared with The Associated Press, labor leaders who represent teachers, autoworkers, truck drivers and clerical staff, among others, signaled a willingness Friday to escalate protest tactics to force local and federal lawmakers to take action on policing reform and systemic racism. They said the walkouts, if they were to move forward with them, would last for as long as needed.

"The status quo — of police killing Black people, of armed white nationalists killing demonstrators, of millions sick and increasingly desperate — is clearly unjust, and it cannot continue," the statement says. It was signed by several branches of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, the Service Employees International Union, and affiliates of the National Education Association.

eoinbn

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Rochester police department are hardly struggling for funds to be fair. They have a jurisdiction covering 230,000 people and a budget of $90mn. By comparison, An Garda Siochana have a jurisdiction of around 4,900,000 people and a budget of the equivalent of $137mn. Per capita, Rochester police department has 14 times the funds of our own.

The gardai have budget of over $2.2bn this year. That is more per capita than Rochester.

eoinbn

eoinbn wrote: »

The gardai have budget of over $2.2bn this year. That is more per capita than Rochester.

" “The Garda Budget for 2020 is €1.882 billion. This is an increase of €122 million (7%) on the 2019 allocation."

Usually best to provide a link.

Carfacemandog

eoinbn wrote: »

The gardai have budget of over $2.2bn this year. That is more per capita than Rochester.

Deleted User wrote: »

" “The Garda Budget for 2020 is €1.882 billion. This is an increase of €122 million (7%) on the 2019 allocation."

Usually best to provide a link.

Good spot actually, I had read the 116mn figure elsewhere which by the looks of it from the link was the capital budget.

gozunda

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Good spot actually, I had read the 116mn figure elsewhere which by the looks of it from the link was the capital budget.

Lads I don't mean to be smart but the previous poster (eoinbn) Garda Budget for 2020 was given in dollars - not euros.

So yes


€1,882 billon when converted is equal to approx $ 2,220 billon

Biafranlivemat

This post is about a Boston bLM leader.
She is a nasty hateful person.
She is opposed to interracial relationships
If you support the bLM movement, you are taking her side.

It is a very long article, but worth a read.
https://tbdailynews.com/blm-boston-leader-congresswoman-ayanna-pressley-campaign-organizer-monica-cannon-grant-posts-sexually-charged-racist-tirade-against-pressleys-republican-challenger/

Manic Moran

Carfacemandog wrote: »

If there are incidents where a police presence is also deemed a necessity, then the likely answer in my ooinoij would be for them to request police accompaniment, for which the department responsible for responding will likely be budgeted accordingly depending on how often they are needed.

I think the bigger problem is incidents where they only discover that police capabilities are needed by the fact that the social worker has just been perforated. By which point it becomes a bit late. Again, witness that video from last week. How would a social worker have handled it any differently to a cop? A different type of knock? (Subject to the detail that the social worker would be unarmed).

Rolling Stone

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

This post is about a Boston bLM leader.
She is a nasty hateful person.
She is opposed to interracial relationships
If you support the bLM movement, you are taking her side.

It is a very long article, but worth a read.
https://tbdailynews.com/blm-boston-leader-congresswoman-ayanna-pressley-campaign-organizer-monica-cannon-grant-posts-sexually-charged-racist-tirade-against-pressleys-republican-challenger/

Frightening. The hate and vitriol from this woman is astounding. She has a large platform to voice her opinions and appears to be very influential with people in power in the Boston area.

How she directed hate to that elementary school play is disgusting and her comments on interracial sex are way OTT.

Can you imagine the outcry if this was a white person saying these things about black people? How has it become acceptable to voice such hate speech?